267 réponses à ce sujet

[Zazzerka]

Seifer006 wrote...

If you READ without a ****ing biased hatred towards me: you see my EXACT response to Chris Priestly.

What, less Liara, more Wrex? Well, consider me completely turned around, that doesn't imply a bias whatsoever.

[Han Shot First]

Seifer006 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Seifer006 wrote...



Mr. Priestly

Award TS2Aggie with an Academy. This guy (or gal) clearly understands the whole point of this thread.

TS2Aggie You are amongst the few that understand

and that I applaud you

There is no work of fiction where every character shares the same level of plot relevence. Why should games be different?

I'd rather Bioware concentrated on writing an interesting story and compelling characters in Mass Effect 4 than making sure every character gets an equal allotment of plot relevence or screen time. If the latter is the first priority, I think you are going to end up with a cast of characters who are all equally dull.

TS2Aggie unfortunately doesn't understand where a writer's priorities should lie.

I wouldn't go that far...

ME2 did a great job IMO on giving in-depth story content.

They were able to introduce new characters and still able to give great background content to them.

Example: Samara.
here's a brand new character we no nothing about. no nothing about her past or even an ardat-yakishi
yet, we know from the game and side quests: She's an Ardat-Yakshi. She has few daughters (and a rebellious one) and she told us about her 1000yrs of history of being a Justicar.

wow. I thought that was handled very well with what Bioware did

Mass Effect 2 didn't give every character equal screen time either. If Garrus is unromanced he spends half the game calibrating. Legion is acquired very late in the game and doesn't have as much to say as some squaddies who were recruited earlier. Zaaed and Kasumi don't even have conversations with Shepard about the Normandy.

[Seifer006]

Han Shot First wrote...
Mass Effect 2 didn't give every character equal screen time either. If Garrus is unromanced he spends half the game calibrating. Legion is acquired very late in the game and doesn't have as much to say as some squaddies who were recruited earlier. Zaaed and Kasumi don't even have conversations with Shepard about the Normandy.

Exactly. I agree

It worked...for the most part IMO. Garrus was big disappointment. I don't play femshep so no idea on the whole LI there... but yes the lack of dialogue and any cool bottle shooting scene....weren't there

Never really was a legion fan. Can't say too much for him. But the Zaeed and Kasumi were cool. Beautiful thing is, you can replay the entire game with them in your squad and get unique dialoges. In fact, during the Archangel mission, if you bring Zaeed, you get a special dialogue with that Batarian (forgot his name) which was an easter egg for Zaeed fans.

For Grunt fans, you can get unique dialogue with the Bloodpack Krogan: Garm. Which was bad**** IMO on how Bioware handled that scene.

IMO if you execute it right, it can work. I thought ME2 executed it right (for the most part)

Modifié par Seifer006, 05 mars 2013 - 05:22 .

[Remix-General Aetius]

"I Fear Liara Will Get Heavily More Content in this Last DLC"

what else is new?

[the_last_krogan]

liara t'soni . love of my mass effect life

[nani7788]

Seifer006 wrote...

It worked...for the most part IMO. Garrus was big disappointment. I don't play femshep so no idea on the whole LI there... but yes the lack of dialogue and any cool bottle shooting scene....weren't there

Do you mean you've never seen the bottle shooting scene in your playthrough? You don't have to romance Garrus to get it. Even Maleshep can have that scene, you just have to talk to Garrus often to build up a friendship.

[KBomb]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

I'd respond to you Seifer, but your constant grammatical errors and inability to spell the simplest of words makes me think you weren't educated past the 5th grade. I don't want to pick on someone who is the intellectual equivalent of a rock.

How vile.

[goose2989]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

I'd respond to you Seifer, but your constant grammatical errors and inability to spell the simplest of words makes me think you weren't educated past the 5th grade. I don't want to pick on someone who is the intellectual equivalent of a rock.

Your sneering condescension is no better, buddy. Don't ignore his arguments simply because you feel you are more literate. The Internet is not the best place to find grammatically sound authors. 

Arrogance alarm sounding 

[TiaraBlade]

I think Liara might be a little more dialogue than most others (shep and Joker has the most of anyone) but I don't think it's Liara-centric at all, at least IMHO.

Looking forward to the DLC and hoping it's great!

[Ymladdych]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

Well, let's see. We can either make Seifer and his Liara-hating vocal minority happy by not including Liara in promotional material. Or we can make the ridiculously large number of players happy by including her. 40% of responders to the only ending survey supported by BioWare identified themselves as having romanced Liara (see pages 11-12).

I think the business case for using Liara as much as possible is quite clear.

There are several problems with your "business case":

1. I don't remember the source, but the percentage of players who even completed an ME2 romance arc wasn't that high...less than 20%, if I remember correctly. But even if you round that figure up to 20%, Liaramancers would only account for 8% of the total player population.

2. If 12% of the total player population romanced someone other than Liara, and ~80% didn't complete the romance arcs at all, then how is it a good business case for Bioware to put all their eggs in one basket by focusing so much on that 1 character at the expense of so many others? And to make that focus blatantly creepy romantic in nature, even if not officially romanced? (What a great way to potentially alienate ~92% of your player base.)

3. More people played Mass Effect 2 than Mass Effect, and it had a significantly higher completion rate: 40% for ME vs 56% for ME2. Following mathematical logic, more people were exposed to ME2 characters than ME characters, and more players overall were engaged enough to complete the game. Given that ME2 was ALL about those characters...well...I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

4. "Lair of the Shadow Broker" is their best-selling DLC to date, but is that because of Liara, or is it due to excellent gameplay?

5. Liara was front and center in ME3...right from the beginning. ME2 characters were sidelined to an eye-rolling degree. The ME3 campaign was the shortest of them all, and the gameplay mechanics were vastly improved - two factors that should've INCREASED completion rates, but yet....completion rates fell to 42%. Was that strictly due to the ending controversy? Or could it be that players simply weren't as engaged with the squad and/or story?

6. (Anecdotal) Not long after the ME3 launch, the friend who hooked me on ME came over to give it a try. He likes Liara well enough, but even he reached a point (~12 hours in) where he stopped playing and blew out a deep, nasally sigh. His mouth had a discernably downward pull when he turned in his seat to tell me, "You know...I don't even think NEW players would find this interesting." He liked how her dialogue was written...it's just Liara was boring him, and there was no compensatory content from other, more interesting (to him), squadmates. I doubt my friend was unique in this - how many others silently walked away from the game for this reason?

Modifié par Ymladdych, 05 mars 2013 - 06:56 .

[Kataphrut94]

What is wrong with Liara getting content? Lots of characters are getting content, why should she get the short end of the stick?

Besides, the OP has a history of making stupid threads like this. There was one he did about Leviathan where one screenshot of Liara shooting a couple of husks alongside Shepard was apparently enough evidence to condemn the entire pack as an evil Liara-centric conspiracy that is apparently happening. Then the DLC came out and revealed that Liara had exactly the same amount of content as everybody else and everyone who posted in that thread suddenly looked quite foolish.

[KBomb]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

What is wrong with Liara getting content? Lots of characters are getting content, why should she get the short end of the stick?

Besides, the OP has a history of making stupid threads like this. There was one he did about Leviathan where one screenshot of Liara shooting a couple of husks alongside Shepard was apparently enough evidence to condemn the entire pack as an evil Liara-centric conspiracy that is apparently happening. Then the DLC came out and revealed that Liara had exactly the same amount of content as everybody else and everyone who posted in that thread suddenly looked quite foolish.

Why does his dislike of Liara bother you so much?

[Kataphrut94]

KBomb wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

What is wrong with Liara getting content? Lots of characters are getting content, why should she get the short end of the stick?

Besides, the OP has a history of making stupid threads like this. There was one he did about Leviathan where one screenshot of Liara shooting a couple of husks alongside Shepard was apparently enough evidence to condemn the entire pack as an evil Liara-centric conspiracy that is apparently happening. Then the DLC came out and revealed that Liara had exactly the same amount of content as everybody else and everyone who posted in that thread suddenly looked quite foolish.

Why does his dislike of Liara bother you so much?

It's not his dislike of Liara that bothers me; I'm not particularly fond of her myself. I just don't like the irrational, knee-jerk reaction because of percieved special treatment. As I said, he posted the exact same thing about Leviathan and it turned out to be relatively well-balanced and had something in it for everyone. This DLC is looking to have those same principles in mind, but taken up to 11.

[David7204]

Disliking a character is fine. Inevitably, people are not going to like every character in every story.

What's not fine is twisting that into ridiculous and stupid accusations of 'bad writing' or 'plot armor' or 'railroading' or rubbish like that. And that's what pretty much every person who whines about a character does.

Here's a few facts that people on the BSN seem to have a very hard time with:

 - Characters are not required to have equal screentime. Nearly every story in existence has some characters appear more often that others. That doesn't change for Mass Effect just because it's a video game. Equal screentime is not indicative of any kind of good writing, nor is unequal screentime indicative of any kind of problem.

- 'Forced' conversations are perfectly good game design and writing. Characters are not 'shoved down your throat' merely for their merit of existing in the story.

- The more of an effect a character has on the story and other characters, the more 'forced' content they're going to have. That's really the end of it. Liara, Miranda, and EDI have a considerable effect on the story, and hence have a good deal of unavoidable content. If you want squadmates to play an active role in the story, you had better get used to the fact that characters are going to be present and the player character is almost certainly going to 'canonically' like them, whether the player does or not. Likewise, if you think you should be able to 'hate' any character or kick them off the ship at any time or whatever, you had better get used to squadmates playing no real role in the story or with other characters.

Modifié par David7204, 05 mars 2013 - 08:02 .

[KBomb]

If you have issues with his reasoning, wouldn't it be logical to avoid his threads?

[matt-bassist]

everybody say... NORMANDY!

[Eterna]

I really don't get peoples beef with Liara.

[sravenblood]

Eterna5 wrote...

I really don't get peoples beef with Liara.

Yeah, I dunno either. The only ones my sheps romance are usually Garrus, Liara and Tali.

[Han Shot First]

David7204 wrote...

Disliking a character is fine. Inevitably, people are not going to like every character in every story.

What's not fine is twisting that into ridiculous and stupid accusations of 'bad writing' or 'plot armor' or 'railroading' or rubbish like that. And that's what pretty much every person who whines about a character does.

Here's a few facts that people on the BSN seem to have a very hard time with:

 - Characters are not required to have equal screentime. Nearly every story in existence has some characters appear more often that others. That doesn't change for Mass Effect just because it's a video game. Equal screentime is not indicative of any kind of good writing, nor is unequal screentime indicative of any kind of problem.

- 'Forced' conversations are perfectly good game design and writing. Characters are not 'shoved down your throat' merely for their merit of existing in the story.

- The more of an effect a character has on the story and other characters, the more 'forced' content they're going to have. That's really the end of it. Liara, Miranda, and EDI have a considerable effect on the story, and hence have a good deal of unavoidable content. If you want squadmates to play an active role in the story, you had better get used to the fact that characters are going to be present and the player character is almost certainly going to 'canonically' like them, whether the player does or not. Likewise, if you think you should be able to 'hate' any character or kick them off the ship at any time or whatever, you had better get used to squadmates playing no real role in the story or with other characters.

Well said.

[KBomb]

Han Shot First wrote...

Well said.

Well said or not, why get so angry and involved about it? Who cares what his reason is, he isn't going to change his opinion, so why engage him at all? Seems it would be better to just ignore his threads and instead post in the ones praising Liara.

Tbh, he can dislike her for whatever reason he wishes. Whether you think them meaningless, illogical or plain stupid, he shouldn't have to defend his dislike for her, just as you shouldn't have to defend your reasoning for liking her. Debating an opinion is one thing, but to get angry and insulting and defensive about it seems so....petty. Some people act like they're really in a relationship with her and they must defend her honor.

Keep in mind when I say "you", it's a general term and not soley directed at you.

[David7204]

Gosh, why disagree with anything, ever? Maybe we should all spend our lives only speaking to people who agree with us?

Modifié par David7204, 05 mars 2013 - 08:47 .

[McFlurry598]

Eterna5 wrote...

I really don't get peoples beef with Liara.

Jealousy and ignorance at its finest is what it's about 

Modifié par McFlurry598, 05 mars 2013 - 08:47 .

[KBomb]

David7204 wrote...

Gosh, why disagree with anything, ever? Maybe we should all spend our lives only speaking to people who agree with us? Maybe we should all avoid helping others when they make mistakes?

Way to build a strawman. To disagree and debate does not involve insulting. You can disagree with someone without resorting to sledgehammering your points and becoming defensive.  

Furthermore, how are you helping him? Do you think telling him how stupid his reasoning is will make him change his mind? lol

[David7204]

Most of the time, no, debate does not change minds. But whose fault is that? Not mine. You do what you can, and that means presenting the information and argument to the best of your abilities. It's all you can do. I can tell you that I've personally been 'helped' a great deal by people who have disagreed with me on one topic or another throughout the years.

It's not a strawmen at all. Have I insulted anyone? I haven't. Nor am I misrepresenting your argument.

Modifié par David7204, 05 mars 2013 - 08:55 .

[KBomb]

David7204 wrote...

Most of the time, no, debate does not change minds. But whose fault is that? Not mine. You do what you can, and that means presenting the information and argument to the best of your abilities. It's all you can do. I can tell you that I've personally been 'helped' a great deal by people who have disagreed with me on one topic or another throughout the years.

It's not a strawmen at all. Have I insulted anyone? I haven't. Nor am I misrepresenting your argument.

So the best of your abilities is becoming defensive over the fact he doesn't like a fictional character? Again, disagreeing is fine, but if you get so emotionally involved in it that you're wigging out, maybe you should just avoid debating it with him. He isn't going to change his mind, so basically at this point it's akin to, "I am going to keep insulting and calling you out until you agree with me!"

It most certainly is a strawman. I said you don't have to insult or get defensive to debate or disagree and from that you took the strawman approach and went on about how no one should ever disagree or help anyone again!

Also:

What's not fine is twisting that into ridiculous and stupid accusations of 'bad writing' or 'plot armor' or 'railroading' or rubbish like that. And that's what pretty much every person who whines about a character does. 

That is insulting and very defensive.

Modifié par KBomb, 05 mars 2013 - 09:05 .