179 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

I think there should be 0.5 seconds invulnerability after a shadow strike. Killing a Ravager, Engineer, Abomination etc and then dying to the explosion is annoying. It drastically reduces the different types of enemies you can afford to strike.

[Original Twigman]

Khranitel wrote...

BACON4BREAKFAST wrote...

Allow me to elaborate.

This CAN kill mooks on gold (like I said not sure about pyros/phantoms)

Tactical Cloak can use any weapon because if you cloak/use power cooldown is around 3 seconds (I'm surprised you don't know this because you have an Infiltrators United banner)

I skip martial artist because not necessary all movement speed FTW.

While you are waiting for bonus power sitting in cloak I could have shot a claymore twice and then cloak and SS in almost the same time.

3. Why you ever need bonus speed when you could zip through entire battlefield (and do it cloaked when you have Duration and Bonus power)? Especially at the price of loosing +50% additive bonus damage.
4. I'm sorry, what?! Bonus power purpose is to let your escape safely from your target's enraged friends, by foot or by another SS (not with 6 sec. cooldown, of course). Besides, if you do it right, you do not ever need to shoot your gun at all.

hate to break it to you, but just these two points tells me that you aren't Shadow-ing as effectively as you could, especially the bolded.

Personally, i thinkt he claymore is a waste on her and take the wraith with the melee/heavey barrel mod, and think it works better.... but the duration/bonus power and "not shooting your gun" is a really slow and inefficient way of maneuvering through a match, despite it being able to OHK

speed is much better

[Original Twigman]

Malanek999 wrote...

I think there should be 0.5 seconds invulnerability after a shadow strike. Killing a Ravager, Engineer, Abomination etc and then dying to the explosion is annoying. It drastically reduces the different types of enemies you can afford to strike.

hmm... no... you should be punished if you shadow strike the wrong enemy... i have done it many times and didn't feel it was "unfair"

[Happy Shepard]

You buffers are disgusting. Can't you leave my Shadow alone? Why are you trying to take my fun away? Why is buffing even necessary in a coop game? Just take something stronger.

Also, you were probably outscored when using the Shadow and try to blame it on the class. Stoppit. Learn2lose.

Modifié par Happy Shepard, 04 mars 2013 - 08:46 .

[Broganisity]

Paladin is a defensive tank. Of course he has better shields than the lightweight shadow. Its only logical.

Extra shield regeneration? Since when can shields restore while cloaked without a special ability? run and hide for a few seconds.

Increase movement speed? Good idea. Too slow for a lightweight illusive scrapper. She's kinda like the vorcha but with more clothes (sadly) and less drooling (hopefully).

50% damage resistance? Good.

Special tactical cloak? Its fine as is, allows for more points put into something else if you stop on rank five...though it bugs me that the Asari has the most obscene tactical cloak out there...nerf its melee damage and give it to the shadow, man.

Animation speed? I dunno. Electric Slash isn't nearly on smash level and shadow strikes isn't too bad, really I'd say give them 20% damage reduction during shadow strike if they don't already have damage reduction. electric slash has good range and can be spammed through walls so really getting hit isn't always a problem.

Give her some melee bonuses while we're at it. that's always good.

Modifié par Broganisity, 04 mars 2013 - 08:48 .

[deafglasses]

Dunvi wrote...

deafglasses wrote...

BACON4BREAKFAST wrote...

narida.pytalhost.com/me3/classes/#Infiltrator/NShadow/JDPPM/Claymore10AP5BH5////BerserkerPackage5/

As you can see, without using an omni-blade and skipping one of the melee passives this class can still take out any mook in one hit (not sure about pyros/phantoms because I rarely use her) You also have a claymore and damage cloak which will destroy bosses.

I fail to see how this class requires a buff.

This build will get downed as soon as they came out of Shadow Strike.

Not if you play intelligently? It's basically the build I have. In fact, I think I throw away all of the defensive evos for pure damage.

That's because you did put points into all damage. Shield Drain is useless since teammates can strip shields faster and Rank 6 Sword mastery doesn't apply its effect to Shadow Srike.

[megawug]

Dunvi wrote...

I used to think not shooting my gun at all on certain classes was a good thing.

Then I L2P'ed.

Learning to play in this case means turning her into a shotgun inf, like every other inf.  Wheeeeee!

EDI bot: way over-designed
Shadow: "but the sword looks cool at least!"

[Blarg]

I wouldn't complain about a buff, but I would be indifferent if it didn't happen.

[Kittstalkur]

Dunvi wrote...

I used to think not shooting my gun at all on certain classes was a good thing.

Then I L2P'ed.

Works great on the Krolord.

Of course, I still shoot Atlases/Banshees/Praetorians while waiting for openings to hammer them tenderly.

[iyFale]

Animation speed and base shield, yes.
I'd say do the same buff to slayer as well, he's survivability isn't much better in some cases.

No problem to melee damage though, if you asking for most powerful single strike heavy melee, she has (beside kroguard and krolord, haven't done math yet), with tactical cloak and proper evolution and equipment. And I was just asking for slayer's melee buff not long ago.

And... since her melee is a straight-on sword swinging, I don't see she deserve damage reduction like slayer does, and one of the evolution of shadow strike does grant you damage reduction.

Modifié par iyFale, 04 mars 2013 - 08:59 .

[Dunvi]

deafglasses wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

deafglasses wrote...

BACON4BREAKFAST wrote...

narida.pytalhost.com/me3/classes/#Infiltrator/NShadow/JDPPM/Claymore10AP5BH5////BerserkerPackage5/

As you can see, without using an omni-blade and skipping one of the melee passives this class can still take out any mook in one hit (not sure about pyros/phantoms because I rarely use her) You also have a claymore and damage cloak which will destroy bosses.

I fail to see how this class requires a buff.

This build will get downed as soon as they came out of Shadow Strike.

Not if you play intelligently? It's basically the build I have. In fact, I think I throw away all of the defensive evos for pure damage.

That's because you did put points into all damage. Shield Drain is useless since teammates can strip shields faster and Rank 6 Sword mastery doesn't apply its effect to Shadow Srike.

Yes it does. Patch 4.

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

Omagerd this thread is getting ridiculous.

Basic point is Infiltrators don't need any buffs of any kind because of the nature of TC. Unless they bring the nerfbat to TC (which will likely never happen) this class is fine as it is.

GL and HF

[deafglasses]

Original Stikman wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I think there should be 0.5 seconds invulnerability after a shadow strike. Killing a Ravager, Engineer, Abomination etc and then dying to the explosion is annoying. It drastically reduces the different types of enemies you can afford to strike.

hmm... no... you should be punished if you shadow strike the wrong enemy... i have done it many times and didn't feel it was "unfair"

SSing a Ravager would make sense since it would quickly close the gap for it to aim its cannons at you. Then you can flip backwards to avoid the swarmers and acid blood, but nope. She'll die by swarmer overload while locked in the SS animation while the Vanguards and the Turian Havoc can do that maneuver just fine.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I don't think I would lose a whole lot of sleep if the Shadow was buffed, but I don't think it should be done.

There's only a couple of things I would want to see. One is an adjustment to the relationship between enemy targetting and Shadow Strike. There are peculiarites that allow enemies to attack you with cooked grenades, melee, or synch kills before you've even properly finished teleporting to the target's location. I've heard of "leading a target," but leading a target in the middle of a teleport is an odd thing to do.

The Shadow's shields are adequate for a kit that can take duration-specced TC and still achieve significant offensive damage ouput. That's a huge cross-section of offense and defense. Giving her more health or shields would largely defeat the purpose of her defensive style.

The Shadow capitlizes on all aspects of Tactical Cloak exceedingly well. Damage-specced, she can OSK some of the toughest enemies in the game. WIth duration-spec, she becomes a full-on ninja, and able to melee enemies from flanking positions, and charge abominations/possessed abominations with an attack that defuses their primary offensive ability.

Electric Slash should have an adjustment, but not to its animation length, which is a balancing factor on an extremely utilitarian ability. It should be able to effect more than three targets. Or, barring that, the three target limit should only apply to mook-level enemies or above. The presence of swarmers/seekers shouldn't render ES significantly less useful. And it would be nice if it could take out all the swarmers in one go. Using three ES strikes to finish off swarmers is excessive, and a Shadow really can't afford to be running through swarmers, so it's often a good idea to get rid of them (I'm learning.)

Anyway, I love the Shadow, and clearly, OP, you do, too. If those powers are proving frustrating, try a different build, or maybe adjust your style of attack a bit. While some of those buffs would be nice, I bet you can find some real rewards in the Shadow's current design. It's tricky, I see a lot of people say they find her powers frustrating to use, but if you love using her, it will come. The microadjustments you make over time, to use her powers more effectively, will really come together, and you'll find she doesn't really need a buff.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Original Stikman wrote...

hate to break it to you, but just these two points tells me that you aren't Shadow-ing as effectively as you could, especially the bolded.

Personally, i thinkt he claymore is a waste on her and take the wraith with the melee/heavey barrel mod, and think it works better.... but the duration/bonus power and "not shooting your gun" is a really slow and inefficient way of maneuvering through a match, despite it being able to OHK

speed is much better

I disagree.  With my build, I can kill a mook every 2.5 seconds or so, from a majority of positions on the map, even faster with a good cluster of enemies that I can chain a heavy melee into.  That's hardly inefficent.  A Wraith user will miss shots at range on big maps.  Will miss shots in general.  My SS will never miss.  

It is weaker against SOME bosses (not all) than a more weapons dependent build, but if I'm playing well, I can deplete the wave budget just as fast and only have to mess with a handful of bosses during the match.

[megawug]

The problem is not the damage. It's the fact she's slow to get in and slow to get out with SS, and that's her main power. She's neither fast nor nimble. A slow assassin is a dead one.

As a shotgun inf, she's perfectly fine. But then, what's the point?

Modifié par megawug, 04 mars 2013 - 09:06 .

[Original Twigman]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

hate to break it to you, but just these two points tells me that you aren't Shadow-ing as effectively as you could, especially the bolded.

Personally, i thinkt he claymore is a waste on her and take the wraith with the melee/heavey barrel mod, and think it works better.... but the duration/bonus power and "not shooting your gun" is a really slow and inefficient way of maneuvering through a match, despite it being able to OHK

speed is much better

I disagree.  With my build, I can kill a mook every 2.5 seconds or so, from a majority of positions on the map, even faster with a good cluster of enemies that I can chain a heavy melee into.  That's hardly inefficent.  A Wraith user will miss shots at range on big maps.  Will miss shots in general.  My SS will never miss.  

It is weaker against SOME bosses (not all) than a more weapons dependent build, but if I'm playing well, I can deplete the wave budget just as fast and only have to mess with a handful of bosses during the match.

we must duel

[Killahead]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I don't think I would lose a whole lot of sleep if the Shadow was buffed, but I don't think it should be done.

There's only a couple of things I would want to see. One is an adjustment to the relationship between enemy targetting and Shadow Strike. There are peculiarites that allow enemies to attack you with cooked grenades, melee, or synch kills before you've even properly finished teleporting to the target's location. I've heard of "leading a target," but leading a target in the middle of a teleport is an odd thing to do.

The Shadow's shields are adequate for a kit that can take duration-specced TC and still achieve significant offensive damage ouput. That's a huge cross-section of offense and defense. Giving her more health or shields would largely defeat the purpose of her defensive style.

The Shadow capitlizes on all aspects of Tactical Cloak exceedingly well. Damage-specced, she can OSK some of the toughest enemies in the game. WIth duration-spec, she becomes a full-on ninja, and able to melee enemies from flanking positions, and charge abominations/possessed abominations with an attack that defuses their primary offensive ability.

Electric Slash should have an adjustment, but not to its animation length, which is a balancing factor on an extremely utilitarian ability. It should be able to effect more than three targets. Or, barring that, the three target limit should only apply to mook-level enemies or above. The presence of swarmers/seekers shouldn't render ES significantly less useful. And it would be nice if it could take out all the swarmers in one go. Using three ES strikes to finish off swarmers is excessive, and a Shadow really can't afford to be running through swarmers, so it's often a good idea to get rid of them (I'm learning.)

Anyway, I love the Shadow, and clearly, OP, you do, too. If those powers are proving frustrating, try a different build, or maybe adjust your style of attack a bit. While some of those buffs would be nice, I bet you can find some real rewards in the Shadow's current design. It's tricky, I see a lot of people say they find her powers frustrating to use, but if you love using her, it will come. The microadjustments you make over time, to use her powers more effectively, will really come together, and you'll find she doesn't really need a buff.

Very good post!

[himegoto]

BACON4BREAKFAST wrote...

Omagerd this thread is getting ridiculous.

Basic point is Infiltrators don't need any buffs of any kind because of the nature of TC. Unless they bring the nerfbat to TC (which will likely never happen) this class is fine as it is.

GL and HF

Completely missing the points OP made.

He was advocating having the kit make more sense.
- Shadow has sniper bonus at rank 6 cloak instead of melee.
- Extra mobility and survivability as a CQC class
- Fixing the SS for a overall better experience. Instead of enemies locking onto you and shoot you death while you're teleporting and the sword jamming on an atlas.

It was never about buffing her to an AIU like so many of you read and I frankly don't know what are the lot of you reading
It was trying to have a CQC melee class make more sense for her to be a damn CQC melee class without getting power creeped too much.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

deafglasses wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I think there should be 0.5 seconds invulnerability after a shadow strike. Killing a Ravager, Engineer, Abomination etc and then dying to the explosion is annoying. It drastically reduces the different types of enemies you can afford to strike.

hmm... no... you should be punished if you shadow strike the wrong enemy... i have done it many times and didn't feel it was "unfair"

SSing a Ravager would make sense since it would quickly close the gap for it to aim its cannons at you. Then you can flip backwards to avoid the swarmers and acid blood, but nope. She'll die by swarmer overload while locked in the SS animation while the Vanguards and the Turian Havoc can do that maneuver just fine.

I wouldn't Shadow Strike a Banshee. You might get away with it, but the odds are poor enough that I don't feel it's worth it. You can SS a Brute, if you're careful.

Ravagers are a question of timing and teammate activity. You're only in trouble if someone damages a Ravager sack before you complete the Shadow Strike. I've been practicing this, and it works very consistently. If the Shadow Strike bursts the sacks, one dodge in a safe direction will allow to evade all damage most of the time, and when you do take damage, it is usually minimal and unable to break shield gate.

Shadow Striking a Ravager that already has one or more sacks burst can be devastating. At best, you'll likely hit Shield Gate within a few seconds, and DoT damage will carry immediately over to your health. At worst, you can be killed almost instantly.

Timed properly, however, and with practice, it is a safe maneouver. Much more so in most cases than Shadow Striking something that can Synch-kill you.

[Charaxan]

Just play her like any other infiltrator, you know ? Forget ss, you can't shadow correctly, you know... Of course she becomes unusefull and can be erased completely from the list of characters without ss and melee but who cares about that ? You wanted a ninja and that's your problem. Always think DPS, not fun.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Original Stikman wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

hate to break it to you, but just these two points tells me that you aren't Shadow-ing as effectively as you could, especially the bolded.

Personally, i thinkt he claymore is a waste on her and take the wraith with the melee/heavey barrel mod, and think it works better.... but the duration/bonus power and "not shooting your gun" is a really slow and inefficient way of maneuvering through a match, despite it being able to OHK

speed is much better

I disagree.  With my build, I can kill a mook every 2.5 seconds or so, from a majority of positions on the map, even faster with a good cluster of enemies that I can chain a heavy melee into.  That's hardly inefficent.  A Wraith user will miss shots at range on big maps.  Will miss shots in general.  My SS will never miss.  

It is weaker against SOME bosses (not all) than a more weapons dependent build, but if I'm playing well, I can deplete the wave budget just as fast and only have to mess with a handful of bosses during the match.

we must duel

I would love to watch that.  I'm often fascinated by what BSN has to say about the Shadow, and I'd be especially curious to see how each of you play her.

[Khranitel]

himegoto wrote...

Khranitel wrote...

himegoto wrote...

BACON4BREAKFAST wrote...

Khranitel wrote...

BACON4BREAKFAST wrote...

narida.pytalhost.com/me3/classes/#Infiltrator/NShadow/JDPPM/Claymore10AP5BH5////BerserkerPackage5/

As you can see, without using an omni-blade and skipping one of the melee passives this class can still take out any mook in one hit (not sure about pyros/phantoms because I rarely use her) You also have a claymore and damage cloak which will destroy bosses.

I fail to see how this class requires a buff.

I'm sorry, but... what did you smoked while making this build?
This build is capable of doing what you said on Bronze and barely on Silver.
Claymore on Shadow? No Omni-Blade? SIX seconds cooldown on Shadow Strike? No Bonus Power? Both defence evos on SS? No Martial Artist?
Whats that, a bad trip?

All I can do is laugh.

Actually, bacon has a good build.
Only thing I'd change is rank 6 damage on SS and rank 6 armor on fitness and rank 5 headshots in passives.

This build can't OHK on Gold: Phantom, Dragoon, Pyro, maybe Possessed Collector Captain. It can't two-hit Brute and Scion.
So it's bad.

Perhaps you need to learn to play.
It's a 3 shot bomber build that cycles 2 claymore shots with cloak's bonus and a SS.
The 2 shots from the claymore far out-damages SS. Hence using the barrel mod instead of omni-blades on the claymore.

I use a variation of this build back when that DLC came out last year. With adrenaline mod. And it one hit kill everything you mentioned above in gold except scions.

Youre a noob.

Yeah, thats synapsefire's build. I saw what it is capable of.
Basically, just pray that there was not more than 3 enemies in your vicinity. Else you're dead. Very effectively.
Oh, and better a noob, than a chicken-headed troll.

[iOnlySignIn]

deafglasses wrote...

BACON4BREAKFAST wrote...

narida.pytalhost.com/me3/classes/#Infiltrator/NShadow/JDPPM/Claymore10AP5BH5////BerserkerPackage5/

As you can see, without using an omni-blade and skipping one of the melee passives this class can still take out any mook in one hit (not sure about pyros/phantoms because I rarely use her) You also have a claymore and damage cloak which will destroy bosses.

I fail to see how this class requires a buff.

This build will get downed as soon as they came out of Shadow Strike.

I use the same build, except with Damage in Rank 6 Shadow Strike instead of Shield Drain. It works great on Gold with no equipments against everything except Collectors.

Being good in the hands of a competent player does not mean a class is not underpowered and in desperate need of a buff.