106 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Darth Death wrote...

Makes sense. Healing spells promote life & when cast upon the undead damage is dealt.

Except in Dragon Age the undead aren't opposed to life.  Undead are just possessed corpses, healing would just make them healthier possessed corpses, and if you could revive the body entirely they'd still be possessed.  Really Spirit spells should (if they don't already never looked closesly at that tree) do extra damage to demons and undead if any do.

[hitenchi]

Yr considering the fact that spirits can possess living creatures as well i would say healing magic probably shouldn't harm them. Since healing magic i don't think is meant to work on dead bodies i don't think it would help them though. Healing magic in D&D kills undead partially because necromancy is seen as the opposite energy type in the setting, amusingly enough neutral or evil clerics are amazing necromancers in the setting better than the classes designed for it from what i have heard.

[legbamel]

Y'all are overthinking this. Healing Spell = Less Dead. Thus healing the undead weakens them. I'm going to make a spirit healer called MiracleMax and spend the whole game curing the mostly dead.

[Quirkylilela]

There is no such thing as less dead just dead. A healing spell would heal the physical body which the demon is using as a vessel the spell wouldn't have any effect on the actual spirit. I haven't played awakening but I assume justice can be healed while inside the corpse so there's your answer.

[SeanBahamut]

Nefla wrote...

I remember in Final Fantasy 9 there was this one boss that was difficult to beat, but it was undead so you could just through 1 phoenix down on it and it instantly died lol.

But yeah FF13 (the first hour at least, that was all I could suffer through) was what finally put me off JRPGs forever

FF13 was truly one of the worst games of all time, I gave up about 6hrs in because I was still just running down straight corridors and letting the game battle for me. It was a let down in every respect. I honestly have no idea how they've managed to milk 2 sequels out of it.

On topic though: Personally I cant see why this is needed in the DA universe. Hell, we should be able to heal the undead with these spells!

Modifié par SeanBahamut, 06 mars 2013 - 03:21 .

[Orian Tabris]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

sunnydxmen wrote...

 In final fantasy games healing undead enemies harms them ,skyrim dawnguard dlcdlc adds spells to healing where you can harm the undead with them ,i think spirit healer needs to be like that they should be also to damage demons who are spirits.

Since when did Bioware make final fantasy games? I mean their female characters are whiny but at least they're not incompetant.

This coming from the guy who spelt 'incompetent' wrong?


I heartily approve of this idea. I'd also like to be able to heal allies who aren't technically in the party. I think you could in Origins, but for some reason you can't in DA2.

You could in Origins if you used the direct single-heal on them.  Not with group heal.  In DA2 there was no point in healing allies who weren't in the party because they were unkillable.

As for healing damaging the undead--there's no reason why it should, and in the context of DA2's setup this would be laughable because your damaging spells did FAR more damage than any amount of healing you could kick out, since, you know, enemies had 10-50 times more health than you did.  That, and there weren't that many "undead", anyway.  But, hey, if you REALLY want to waste a cooldown on Heal to do 175 damage when you could throw a fireball and do over a thousand, go for it.

There actually was a lot of undead in DA2. If you meant in Origins, I still think there were a lot of undead enemies (such as the revanents).

"No point" you say? I beg to differ! What if you want to heal your Dog to keep him alive when you're in a dungeon? He can leave the battle, but you likely won't be able to use him again till after that fight. You might do better if you manage to keep Dog alive just that little bit longer. So there was a point.

[Quirkylilela]

Orian- you misunderstood he meant if heal spells did damage to undead they wouldn't do as much as a proper damage spell it was just a hypothetical.

[MagmaSaiyan]

anything unnatural with evil intent is evil, so anything that has positive influence, such as heaing, will cause damage

[Solmanian]

Why would spirit healing hurt spirits? that doesn'tmake sense.

Never understood the concept of healing hurting undead. Because it makes them less dead? Isn't the problems with undead is that they're aren't dead enough? If I cast revival on a revenant does he become a living mortal, or abomination?

[Solmanian]

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

anything unnatural with evil intent is evil, so anything that has positive influence, such as heaing, will cause damage

You're mixing definitions. Evil=/=negetive; it only means they have a "negetive" outlook on morality.
Healing (especialy magical healing in the DAverse) =/= positive; it merely restors you back, you don't get stronger like when healing naturally.

Healing spells simply mend the flesh (close wounds, stop bleedings, etc...). It has nothing to do with positive or negative energy. It's only positive from your subjctive POV of "I'm not injured, good!". D&D style undead animation spells could be considered "positive" since they give "life" to something that was dead. It's even less relevant in DAverse where undeads are the result of possession by low level demons.

And again "demons" is merely a label, there isn't a fundamental difference between "demons" and the benevolent spirits of the fade. The difference is in their attitude, and the asepct they drow power from. And you're going to say "demons drow their power from negative emotion so you can counter it with positive emotion with the power of love", I'll say this isn't star wars. There isn't light&dark side of the force. The emotions demon draw their strength from aren't evil, merely base. Hunger, rage, desire, lust and pride are common emotions amongst all humanoids. You can't hurt a desire demon with chastity...

[Solmanian]

legbamel wrote...

Y'all are overthinking this. Healing Spell = Less Dead. Thus healing the undead weakens them. I'm going to make a spirit healer called MiracleMax and spend the whole game curing the mostly dead.

Let's say you're fighting a zombie that was run over by a truck. His legs are broken and he slowly drags himself toward you with his one good arm. His eyes were picked out by birds so he has to track you by smell.

And than you cast a healing spell on him. He can see again and his legs aren't broken anymore; how does that improve your situation?

Undead are not a problem because they're dead. It's because they aren't dad enough... Healing them would make their bodies stronger, and so will make them even harder to fight...

[Rawgrim]

If you heal the damage to a body, it heals. it doesn`t cause more damage. So healing a zombie would fix its body and repair damage.

In d&d, however, it causes damage when you heal an undead creature. This has to do with healing magic being divine magic.

[cindercatz]

Agreed with the majority here. Healing is just creation magic, i.e. growth and restoration, which is good in the sense that it's beneficial, but it has no religious significance in DA. And it shouldn't, because then you start to qualify a particular religion as good and its competitors as bad, which is something DA doesn't and shouldn't do, or else the game is justifying things like the Exalted Marches regardless of who you play. Also, it'd be inconsistent. Healing magic was certainly helpful to Justice.

Undead in DA just means the body has died and no longer grows or repairs itself, but is up walking around for some reason. The body can basically be an automaton if raised through spirit magic. It can be a shell for a spirit to reside in (but spirits can also reside in ashes or dirt or trees, etc.). It can be a puppet if mechanically controlled through blood magic. Blood itself is powerful in DA, but also has no good/bad quality. Blood magic is only considered evil because of its potential abuse and the fact that it's fueled by blood, which means it's often fueled through sacrifice. And it's extra dangerous because it opens one up moreso to the fade spirits. Blood is life, and some DA fade spirits are drawn to and fixated on mortal life, hence summoning through blood magic.

Gameplay wise? Healers in DA are not clerics, and they're not limited to healing magic, so if we only get one spec tree next game, just open up some of the other magic schools' spells to them, or work in negative growth. They could potentially create tumors and aneurisms, etc. if they wanted to.

Modifié par cindercatz, 09 mars 2013 - 04:08 .

[ejoslin]

Well, in theory, to be able to practice blood magic, you need to make a deal with a demon. At least, that was the lore in DAO regarding it. That's also how the blood magic specialization in DAO is unlocked, though it's not necessary to do in DA2 so maybe that's changed.

[cindercatz]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, in theory, to be able to practice blood magic, you need to make a deal with a demon. At least, that was the lore in DAO regarding it. That's also how the blood magic specialization in DAO is unlocked, though it's not necessary to do in DA2 so maybe that's changed.

I always saw it as, demons like to teach blood magic because it makes the mage easier to possess or ply into possession, or melding and becoming an abomination, not that the contract was necessary to learn blood magic. It's just forbidden and dangerous, so it's not taught most of the time, is how I think it is.

'Course I could be wrong.

Modifié par cindercatz, 09 mars 2013 - 04:11 .

[ejoslin]

Well, it's not like there's any definitive text on this -- all you get are comments from people who were raised to believe certain things. What you think does make sense. A mage making a deal with a demon would definitely be the easiest way to learn, but whether being able to use blood instead of mana requires a physical change is never addressed.

But it does make me wonder if anyone could become a blood mage or if you have to have the affinity for casting magic to begin with.

[cindercatz]

That is interesting, since supposedly Reavers are a very similar situation. They don't use magic, but they can (though I think like with blood magic don't have to) come by their skills by way of demonic interaction. Maybe they do have to, though, and the games have just glossed past it for our characters. Sten was a Reaver without ever having made a deal about it though, I'm sure. I imagine blood mages have to be born mages, or it would be just as difficult as any other magic. DA's lore does have hybrid magic/mundane classes built in.

[legbamel]

Solmanian wrote...

legbamel wrote...
Y'all are overthinking this. Healing Spell = Less Dead. Thus healing the undead weakens them. I'm going to make a spirit healer called MiracleMax and spend the whole game curing the mostly dead.

Let's say you're fighting a zombie that was run over by a truck. His legs are broken and he slowly drags himself toward you with his one good arm. His eyes were picked out by birds so he has to track you by smell.

And than you cast a healing spell on him. He can see again and his legs aren't broken anymore; how does that improve your situation?

Undead are not a problem because they're dead. It's because they aren't dad enough... Healing them would make their bodies stronger, and so will make them even harder to fight...

It was a joke.  I can't insert smilies on my phone.  The Miracle Max reference, however, should have had you all thinking "Princess Bride!" 

However, the animating force of the undead relies on the body being, in fact, dead, yes?  If you can heal/resurrect the body, what happens to that force?  I'm not actually advocating healing spells doing damage to undead bodies, just musing.

[cindercatz]

I think the reason is that a dead body has no soul, so the soul isn't there to resist the magic. They're just a pliable object instead of a person, kinda like.

[Blooddrunk1004]

 I wouldn't mind this at all. FF series aren't the only ones who used this mechanic. This also appeared on Warcraft 3 if you were using humans or undead.

[Angrywolves]

Not in favor of this for Dragon Age. I always thought it was something of a copout and made battles against the undead too easy.

[Realmzmaster]

As has been stated healing spells hurting the undead is because healing spells come from a deity in the D & D universe. The spells are divine and the only way to get them is through prayer. Evil gods can bestow healing spells.
Healing in the DA universe is not granted by a divine being. Mana is being drawn from the fade. All mages whether good, bad or neutral can manipulate mana and cast healing spells. So healing spells in the DA universe only heals the living and has no affect on the dead or undead.

[Rawgrim]

Kind of makes me wonder why healing spells works on Shale, who is made out of rock. Technically a mage should be able to use the same magic to close a breach in a city wall that way too.