342 réponses à ce sujet

[MajorStupidity]

DungeonHoek wrote...

MajorStupidity wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

I want to believe you that Bioware SOLEY looks at the data, but, those other incidents are rather coincidental don't you think?

Though you do have a point at least with the untouched stuff.

I believe the coincidence happened because we all know Bioware is against farming for the sole reason that it costs them micro-transactions. Remember the cooldown nerf on Smash, that was FBWG farming. Remember the Sabotage nerfs, that was FBWG farming and also this was before they buffed geth into godhood when they were the easiest faction.

They nerfed the cooldown on the slash abilities because they were being used the FBWG farm by alot of PUGs. I do not agree with Bioware's crusade against farming and camping simply because it is completely legitimate for people to play the game this way as they are not cheating in anyway.

Well, I certainly can't argue how they changed White and boxed up Glacier like they did. Arguebly to strike at farming. But yeah, those nerfs did seem strange.

And the Geth, oh lord. I stayed away from them until more recently. Stun lock hell.

But still, a good number of the things nerfed, the community was screaming about and demonizing like it was the worst thing to ever exist.

Because generally the things they have nerfed have been pretty necessary. Now I am not arguing that Bioware has done a great job with nerfing (krysae), but generally they have kept the nerfing to a minimum and the kits they have nerfed have still been great even after their respective nerfs (Destroyer, Demo, GI, TGI, ect.)

Not to mention Tactical cloak itself which recieved a significant nerf to make the duration evolution actually meaningful. Infiltrators are still arguable some of the best kits in game.

Modifié par MajorStupidity, 05 mars 2013 - 03:23 .

[DungeonHoek]

MajorStupidity wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

MajorStupidity wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

I want to believe you that Bioware SOLEY looks at the data, but, those other incidents are rather coincidental don't you think?

Though you do have a point at least with the untouched stuff.

I believe the coincidence happened because we all know Bioware is against farming for the sole reason that it costs them micro-transactions. Remember the cooldown nerf on Smash, that was FBWG farming. Remember the Sabotage nerfs, that was FBWG farming and also this was before they buffed geth into godhood when they were the easiest faction.

They nerfed the cooldown on the slash abilities because they were being used the FBWG farm by alot of PUGs. I do not agree with Bioware's crusade against farming and camping simply because it is completely legitimate for people to play the game this way as they are not cheating in anyway.

Well, I certainly can't argue how they changed White and boxed up Glacier like they did. Arguebly to strike at farming. But yeah, those nerfs did seem strange.

And the Geth, oh lord. I stayed away from them until more recently. Stun lock hell.

But still, a good number of the things nerfed, the community was screaming about and demonizing like it was the worst thing to ever exist.

Because generally the things they have nerfed have been pretty necessary. Now I am not arguing that Bioware has done a great job with nerfing (krysae), but generally they have kept the nerfing to a minimum and the kits they have nerfed have still been great even after their respective nerfs (Destroyer, Demo, GI, TGI, ect.)

Not to mention Tactical cloak itself which recieved a significant nerf to make the duration evolution actually meaningful. Infiltrators are still arguable some of the best kits in game.

Y'know, I don't really notice a difference in my Demolisher's performance on gold. So whatever they "nerfed" must have done nothing. Same with my Destroyer. So, I'm kinda wondering what you're talking about.

But the Turian Ghost?, that one didn't work out. He never needed those combat stims to begin with. All that did was make the Havoc less effective as a tank.

[Zhuinden]

Hausner85 wrote...
 This post i dedicated to those that think we are trying to destroy your game. We are not. In fact we are trying to save it even while you can’t see it. 

You can argue as much as you want but the truth is that we all are a competitive bunch and in order to compete with best weapons/kits most players will be forced to make switch to them. Very soon the best thing about ME3MP it’s variety will be dead and again most of the players will be frustrated/bored by playing always the same way. 

So OP kit/weapons can make game boring/frustrating whenever you use them or not. They will always hurt your gaming experience.

This kit is making sure you will never learn how to time your attacks, how to protect yourself and how to survive on Gold. This kit is promoting stupid and reckless behavior even on gold. It’s hard to see this a good thing even for aspiring players.... 

EDIT: One more time if some one didn't understand : YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME. But i would be nice if you could see there is some logic in this approach and the goal isn't really to RUIN YOUR GAME.

So what you're saying is
1.) you don't like how people play the AIU
2.) you want them to play like how you think they should play
3.) you seem to believe that everyone will be playing the AIU as nothing else is as good as it, despite how there are numerous people who can do wonders with a Drell Infiltrator or a Krogan Sentinel
4.) overall you believe it's a threat to your current gaming style that you seem to expect from others because "people will be more effective with the AIU" than whatever you use

Essentially, there are probably people who need the AIU to stand a chance, or it might even be their only unlocked class of the more effective tier. If you're not one of them, go play Volus Engineer with a Shuriken X and let people enjoy the game, instead of forcing them to do whatever you think is the "right way of playing the game".

Modifié par Zhuinden, 05 mars 2013 - 03:27 .

[MajorStupidity]

DungeonHoek wrote...

Y'know, I don't really notice a difference in my Demolisher's performance on gold. So whatever they "nerfed" must have done nothing. Same with my Destroyer. So, I'm kinda wondering what you're talking about.

But the Turian Ghost?, that one didn't work out. He never needed those combat stims to begin with. All that did was make the Havoc less effective as a tank.

I do agree that the TGI should never have had stimpacks and that the nerf really only hurt the havoc.

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Devastator Mode Power
- Base magazine size bonus decreased from 25% to 15%
- Rank 2 magazine size bonus decreased from 10% to 5%
- Evolution 3 magazine size bonus decreased from 25% to 15%
- Evolution 4 rate of fire bonus decreased from 25% to 15%

Supply Pylon Power
- Base time interval between spawning ammo increased from 15 to 17.5 seconds
- Base time interval between spawning grenades increased from 20 to 24 seconds
- Evolution 3 weapon damage bonus decreased from 15% to 10%
- Evolution 4 power damage bonus decreased from 15% to 10%[/i]

The destroyer nerf I know was due to the prevalence of the destroyer + PPR combo which is still incredibly powerful and to make the turian soldier and other weapons classes less obsolete compared to the destroyer.

Modifié par MajorStupidity, 05 mars 2013 - 03:34 .

[Hausner85]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

While balance is needed in every game, balance doesn't have to be as tight as PvP games in PvE.

Especially when it has reached his end life.

True but being able to revive yourself 50 in a game is a litte to much. Having more then 10000+ shields is to

[3rd-apex]

I detect a flaw in your argument. You don't take into account player skill and preference. For instance, I don't use the Black Widow on my infiltrators because I think the weapon is garbage. Additionally, I use the Vindicator, the Scimitar, the Avenger, the Geth Pulse Rifle, the Geth Plasma shotgun and more on Gold. I can not tell you how many people have told me these weapons are not viable on gold, but then I turn around and my Geth Soldier, N7 Slayer, and N7 Paladin consistently reach first and occasionally second play scores.

All weapons in this game are viable on all difficulties, you just have to know how to use said weapons. If everyone had a bit more imagination in this game, and didn't care about scores or what was OP, things would be a lot of fun. Back in the day when that Turian sniper rifle was the thing, I never used it, and only saw it used three or four times, and only one time was I outscored by one of these people. This tells me two things. Very few people were actually abusing the rifle. And second, if very few people were abusing the rifle then a nerf wasn't needed, because The Rifle was practically nerfed into Oblivion. That weapon truly is almost non-viable (unless you only goal is long-range crowd control, then it is still viable).

Another weapon constantly touted as OP is the Harrier. News flash people, the mattock is better, BY FAR. Here is why it is better: 1. (generally speaking) More accurate. That means more headshots, which means, WAY more damage. 2. Faster RPM if you can push the trigger fast enough. 3. Less weight. 4. More ammo. Sure, on paper the Harrier is the weapon of the gods, but I personally find it's very easy to miss the head with that gun, and when dealing with moving targets, I have a tendency to hold down the trigger and not follow the target effective, ultimately leading to many missed shots.

This naturally leads me to the discussion of people saying Assault Rifles need buffed. HAVE YOU BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME? Are you kidding me? Assault Rifles are my favorite weapons in this game, and I am actually almost of the opinion that they need NERFED. Now, maybe I am not in the majority here, but I actually aim for the head with my assault rifles, and I consistently hit the head. When you have that many bullets getting a 250% damage bonus (or 300% in the case of the Geth Pule Rifle) the damage goes through the roof.

This all leads me to conclude that there are a lot of scared people out there, that aren't willing to 1. Try new things, and 2. unwilling to risk being second on the score board. While I do keep track of my scores, I don't really care about them. I could care less if I am first, second, third, or fourth, as long as the team wins. That mentality has lead me to try all sorts of weapons and character combos, and in this search for my favorite character/weapon combo, I have found almost every single weapon in this game has its place in a combat scenario. Are there some weapons that on paper are wholly better than others? Sure. In practice, I find this to rarely be true, however. Numbers can't account for troop movements, team builds, and headshot consistency,

[WaffleCrab]

OP needs a chillpill.

[DungeonHoek]

[quote]MajorStupidity wrote...

[quote]DungeonHoek wrote...

Y'know, I don't really notice a difference in my Demolisher's performance on gold. So whatever they "nerfed" must have done nothing. Same with my Destroyer. So, I'm kinda wondering what you're talking about.

But the Turian Ghost?, that one didn't work out. He never needed those combat stims to begin with. All that did was make the Havoc less effective as a tank.

[/quote]

I do agree that the TGI should never have had stimpacks and that the nerf really only hurt the havoc.

[/quote]Eric Fagnan wrote...

Devastator Mode Power
- Base magazine size bonus decreased from 25% to 15%
- Rank 2 magazine size bonus decreased from 10% to 5%
- Evolution 3 magazine size bonus decreased from 25% to 15%
- Evolution 4 rate of fire bonus decreased from 25% to 15%

Supply Pylon Power
- Base time interval between spawning ammo increased from 15 to 17.5 seconds
- Base time interval between spawning grenades increased from 20 to 24 seconds
- Evolution 3 weapon damage bonus decreased from 15% to 10%
- Evolution 4 power damage bonus decreased from 15% to 10%

[/quote]

The destroyer nerf I know was due to the prevalence of the destroyer + PPR combo which is still incredibly powerful and to make the turian soldier and other weapons classes less obsolete compared to the destroyer.



[/quote]

Huh, so they did nerf em. That's strange, I really didn't notice any performance difference. But, that just might be my overall skill and comptency with the character's at work.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

3rd-apex wrote...

Another weapon constantly touted as OP is the Harrier. News flash people, the mattock is better, BY FAR. Here is why it is better: 1. (generally speaking) More accurate. That means more headshots, which means, WAY more damage. 2. Faster RPM if you can push the trigger fast enough. 3. Less weight. 4. More ammo. Sure, on paper the Harrier is the weapon of the gods, but I personally find it's very easy to miss the head with that gun, and when dealing with moving targets, I have a tendency to hold down the trigger and not follow the target effective, ultimately leading to many missed shots.

This naturally leads me to the discussion of people saying Assault Rifles need buffed. HAVE YOU BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME? Are you kidding me? Assault Rifles are my favorite weapons in this game, and I am actually almost of the opinion that they need NERFED. Now, maybe I am not in the majority here, but I actually aim for the head with my assault rifles, and I consistently hit the head. When you have that many bullets getting a 250% damage bonus (or 300% in the case of the Geth Pule Rifle) the damage goes through the roof.

This all leads me to conclude that there are a lot of scared people out there, that aren't willing to 1. Try new things, and 2. unwilling to risk being second on the score board. While I do keep track of my scores, I don't really care about them. I could care less if I am first, second, third, or fourth, as long as the team wins. That mentality has lead me to try all sorts of weapons and character combos, and in this search for my favorite character/weapon combo, I have found almost every single weapon in this game has its place in a combat scenario. Are there some weapons that on paper are wholly better than others? Sure. In practice, I find this to rarely be true, however. Numbers can't account for troop movements, team builds, and headshot consistency,

Nope. You just don't use the Harrier optimally. Also, the Mattock doesn't have faster RPM. 

PS : true hipsters use the Incisor. Biower nerf Incisor, it's so gud.

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 05 mars 2013 - 03:42 .

[ryoldschool]

The devasator mode nerf was mainly aimed at the ppr, IMO, as it took the level X ammo on the ppr from 300 to 269 when activated. They must have seen too many ppr on destroyers.

The demolisher was nerfed by the addition of dragoons, geth bombers, making it difficult to camp on most maps. If you can camp on your pylon you used to never run out of grenades and still take whatever load out you wanted without care for weight. Now even if you camp on platinum you will run out of grenades. So it was very successful nerf in that it reduced the number of players using the demolisher. I'm not mad about it, but there are a lot of better options now, IMO.

As for the TO, this thread was not needed. I've been playing since the demo, logged 1100 hours and don't need him to protect the game for me with his view of what is correct. As far as the Edi character - it's very good and probably will be adjusted somehow, but even if they remove the repair matrix I will still use the character because of the shotgun bonus.

[Gylukios]

I dispute your arrogant claim that someone else loves this game more than I do. They might love it more than I do, but you don't know me, so you don't know if that is true, so do not presume it to be true.

I hate nerfs because they either go too far or harm the innocent bystanders more than the intended targets.

The Krysae nerf turned ten rare unlocks and close to 500,000 credits into useless, unusable garbage. I could have gotten ten lvl 4 equipment cards out of that money, which would have been far more useful to me.

The TC nerf came about because of the Geth Infiltrator and the Male Quarian Infiltrator. That nerf did not damage these classes at all, and both were then and still are top-tier, along with the Salarian Infiltrator. The nerf did damage the relative power of the "weaker" infiltrators, The Human(s) and the Female Quarian. It also did not damage the most powerful variants of Infiltrators, the Shotgun Infiltrators, too badly. Instead it nerfed the power of all sniper rifles, which had been balanced around TC's sniper rifle damage bonus. They've (mostly) been buffed back into line, but that took months upon months.

[The Makr]

Buffer's love the game more. If nerfers had their way MP would be tumbleweeds by now.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

The Makr wrote...

Buffer's love the game more. If nerfers had their way MP would be tumbleweeds by now.

OP is Marauder Shields. He's trying to save us. Don't you understand? Don't you respect his sacrifice? 

[Dracian]

Gylukios wrote...
 
[...]
The nerf did damage the relative power of the "weaker" infiltrators, The Human(s) and the Female Quarian.
[...]

Putting the words "weaker" and "infiltrators" together in the same sentence turns your argument to an invalid state.

Modifié par Dracian, 05 mars 2013 - 03:52 .

[etm125]

Xtorma wrote...
Balance is an illusion. It's a long winding road developers feel they must tread in hopes that one day they will see the Emerald City over the horizon. Despite my posts, i am actually in the camp of "I don't really care" as far as nerfs go at this stage of the game. When it first came out, and choices were extremely limited, it made sense to try and balance as closely as possible. Now that we have 64 characters too choose from, it matters a lot less. The spectrum of OP to UP is huge now if you compare best to worst. Op kits exist, and have existed in the game for a long time, yet we don't see  people playing exclusivly op kits in lobbies until we get to platinum.

If the game were balanced there would never be "is this kit/weapon viable in platinum" threads. We can't argue that they havent had enough time to bring some of the lesser kits up to par, since it's been close to a year since the game began. My take on why they havent, is because with so many choices in the game now, preference has taken over where performance used to reign supreme.

People are calling for nerfs because they are afraid that performance will come back to take over the game. It may very well happen, but the liklihood is a lot less now than it was a year ago. I honestly believe that whether they nerf AIU or not will do very little to shift the balance from preference to performance, therefore I believe it isn't necessary unless the balance actually shifts.

My twisted logic in a nutshell.

well said. I still don't think you throw in the towel on balance just because perfection isnt attainable though. They still seem to seek some sort of balance or else they wouldnt bother with weekly balance changes. I still think the AIau is stupidly OP and can demonstrate but if we are reaching the end of mp then its not worth getting into arguments over it. I only really got into it about the Aaiau because I do care about the balance of the game. Its been a great ride. 

People are gonna ream the OP for being a nerfer and I had to chime in once again for the balance crowd.

[Gylukios]

Dracian wrote...

Gylukios wrote...
 
[...]
The nerf did damage the relative power of the "weaker" infiltrators, The Human(s) and the Female Quarian.
[...]

Putting the words "weaker" and "infiltrators" together in the same sentence turns your argument to an invalid state.

I don't think there are many who would argue that Cryo Blast is better than Proximity Mine.

I don't think there are many who would argue that Sticky Grenades (especially the sticky grenades at the time of the TC nerf) are better than Arc Grenades.

I don't think there are many who would argue that Sabotage is better than Energy Drain.

[stromguard555]

Who nerfers really hurt are the players that are new to the game. They join bronze lobbies and see the three Drell infiltrators with level X black widows and go through the map watching them dominate. Well because said player is new, it will be months before he/she unlocks the Drell, while hoping the whole time to get it because it was so awesome. Well the kit gets nerfed, excuse me, "balanced" and by the time the player unlocks the kit, it is meh. Is this fair? The player probably looses interest in the game and moves on. By crying for nerfs, you end up hurting the game for those who have yet to accuire, play, and enjoy these kits like those of us who have been playing for a very long time.

If all kits and weapons were available to us at level X from the beginning, then crying for nerfs would be acceptable as every player would have had an equal chance to test the item in question.

[spudspot]

Dracian wrote...

Putting the words "weaker" and "infiltrators" together in the same sentence turns your argument to an invalid state.

The female Quarian Infiltrator is weaker than the AIU and some other infiltrators.

True story.

Modifié par spudspot, 05 mars 2013 - 04:00 .

[Zorinho20_CRO]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

3rd-apex wrote...

Another weapon constantly touted as OP is the Harrier. News flash people, the mattock is better, BY FAR. Here is why it is better: 1. (generally speaking) More accurate. That means more headshots, which means, WAY more damage. 2. Faster RPM if you can push the trigger fast enough. 3. Less weight. 4. More ammo. Sure, on paper the Harrier is the weapon of the gods, but I personally find it's very easy to miss the head with that gun, and when dealing with moving targets, I have a tendency to hold down the trigger and not follow the target effective, ultimately leading to many missed shots.

This naturally leads me to the discussion of people saying Assault Rifles need buffed. HAVE YOU BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME? Are you kidding me? Assault Rifles are my favorite weapons in this game, and I am actually almost of the opinion that they need NERFED. Now, maybe I am not in the majority here, but I actually aim for the head with my assault rifles, and I consistently hit the head. When you have that many bullets getting a 250% damage bonus (or 300% in the case of the Geth Pule Rifle) the damage goes through the roof.

This all leads me to conclude that there are a lot of scared people out there, that aren't willing to 1. Try new things, and 2. unwilling to risk being second on the score board. While I do keep track of my scores, I don't really care about them. I could care less if I am first, second, third, or fourth, as long as the team wins. That mentality has lead me to try all sorts of weapons and character combos, and in this search for my favorite character/weapon combo, I have found almost every single weapon in this game has its place in a combat scenario. Are there some weapons that on paper are wholly better than others? Sure. In practice, I find this to rarely be true, however. Numbers can't account for troop movements, team builds, and headshot consistency,

Nope. You just don't use the Harrier optimally. Also, the Mattock doesn't have faster RPM. 

PS : true hipsters use the Incisor. Biower nerf Incisor, it's so gud.

Mattock 450 RPM
Harrier 550 RPM
(if I remember correctly)

[masleslie]

Read you whole post. There is nothing here I haven't already heard and I still disagree with most of it.

But I have to thank you for being one of the most reasonable & understanding BSNers posting comments/threads like this. A rare thing which deserves acknowledgement, and I do recognise that you care about the game & mean well.

Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with nerfing or buffing, thats part of how the game works. But I despair everytime an experienced Gold/Plat player declares that something must be nerfed for the good of the game because they are able to do insanely well with said kit. Just because you can do that does not mean that everyone will be able to.

Case in point - the current heated debate over the AIU. Apparently she is "so badly broken she will destroy the game as we know it". Actually I have seen plenty of people playing her in recent days who couldn't even top a Silver PUG scoreboard with her. The point is that just because you could play her to solo Plat with one hand tied behind your back doesnt mean every player could. Why not wait & see before trying to impose your own view of the situation upon an entire player base, many of whom might see it differently?

[Hausner85]

stromguard555 wrote...

Who nerfers really hurt are the players that are new to the game. They join bronze lobbies and see the three Drell infiltrators with level X black widows and go through the map watching them dominate. Well because said player is new, it will be months before he/she unlocks the Drell, while hoping the whole time to get it because it was so awesome. Well the kit gets nerfed, excuse me, "balanced" and by the time the player unlocks the kit, it is meh. Is this fair? The player probably looses interest in the game and moves on. By crying for nerfs, you end up hurting the game for those who have yet to accuire, play, and enjoy these kits like those of us who have been playing for a very long time.

If all kits and weapons were available to us at level X from the beginning, then crying for nerfs would be acceptable as every player would have had an equal chance to test the item in question.

So you support release Krysea + GI because some didn't have chance to test it ?

[P51Mus7ang]

Title is confusing, if someone loves a game they probably play it often, maybe even hang around the games forum, the confusing part is I have more that twice as many games played, same with hours, I think I love the game as I play it every day, have been around the forum since March vs your November, and finally I am against nurfing....strange

[Dracian]

Gylukios wrote...

Dracian wrote...

Gylukios wrote...
 
[...]
The nerf did damage the relative power of the "weaker" infiltrators, The Human(s) and the Female Quarian.
[...]

Putting the words "weaker" and "infiltrators" together in the same sentence turns your argument to an invalid state.

I don't think there are many who would argue that Cryo Blast is better than Proximity Mine.

I don't think there are many who would argue that Sticky Grenades (especially the sticky grenades at the time of the TC nerf) are better than Arc Grenades.

I don't think there are many who would argue that Sabotage is better than Energy Drain.

Don't want to be rude or offensive, but if you say that, you clearly lack experience in "Infiltrator Mastery". Cryo Blast, Stickynades and Sabotage are less user-friendly but not worse than PM, Arcnades or ED. They are different and allow different strategies.

And, BTW, saying that an Infiltrator is weak is a nonsense...

[inversevideo]

Maurader Sackboy wrote...

Hausner85 wrote...
...  imagine that you just started you first MP game ... three Drell Assassins (lev 20) with Black Widow X and Drill Round III come to you Bronze lobby. You will barely see an enemy nevermind killing something for the whole match.

But this happens already? Those just starting find others with almost a year of experience and BW Xs pugging bronze & silver.  Why? I don't know.  And they probably got their BW's by using OP weapons and classes pre-nerfs.

Whatever, doesn't matter to me.  Dare I say it but I find the new JUG much more OP than the AIU (speaking Silver here) -- he's so much more useful to the team -- holding the more troublesome enemies at bay.  Bringing him to a match makes it seem like a walk in the park.  With my AIU (& no good JUG on the team), it's the same old scramble.

Agreed.  The better players would frequent bronze and silver to grind out challenges, and it was all a noob could do to keep up.   Bioware increased the payout, in platinuum and Gold, to encourage follks who had the skilz to leave bronze and silver alone.  

Up until very recently, the games were dominated by Krogan with claymore  and vorcha with flamer and reegar and geth with flamers.  Flamers everywhere, charging spawns, bosses, krogan meleeing bosses. If you were not one of those kits, or you played another class, you were often relegated to lowscore; in a game where score really has no meaning, but many foilks lable you a scrub if you are not high score.   

Did anyone cry that Krogan, Geth and Vorcha needed balancing or were ruining the foundation of the game? Or making the game too easy for all?  

So basically, what gets nerfed is whatever kit a vocal elite does not seem to like, for whatever reason.
Other kits get a 'pass'.

Modifié par inversevideo, 05 mars 2013 - 04:08 .

[Hausner85]

masleslie wrote...
Case in point - the current heated debate over the AIU. Apparently she is "so badly broken she will destroy the game as we know it". Actually I have seen plenty of people playing her in recent days who couldn't even top a Silver PUG scoreboard with her. The point is that just because you could play her to solo Plat with one hand tied behind your back doesnt mean every player could. Why not wait & see before trying to impose your own view of the situation upon an entire player base, many of whom might see it differently?

 
The problem with her is the insane amount of respawns she alows making her absurdly big numbers of mistakes she is forgiving

Modifié par Hausner85, 05 mars 2013 - 04:12 .