25 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

If you build a dex-heavy sword+shield character (I'm thinking of Alistair at the moment but actually this applies to the class spec) which is going to tank.. do you get better damage from dex affecting dagger damage than you would for the 38 str (or whatever it is for massive armor) affecting swords/axes/maces? 

If I am mistaken in what stats affect what, now would be a great to time correct me as well ^^

Modifié par eschilde, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:45 .

[Lord Phoebus]

Short answer is if dex>strength then daggers will do more damage. Long answer is even if they're close daggers will probably do more since they're faster so you get more rune damage per second. However axes will do damage with special attacks until dex is a bit higher than strength.(0.85*dex>1.35*strength-5). Daggers and maces have the same armor penetration and daggers will be faster so daggers there. If you're going for dex sword and board then daggers will eventually be the best weapon.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:26 .

[eschilde]

Ah, okay, that's a great answer! Thanks!

[krsboss]

<---Jimmy (my avatar) is a dexterity based sword and shield wielder using the Rose's Thorn dagger, hitting on average for ~80 before any rune bonuses....as I took berserker specialization, using final blow I've hit for 178 highest! I put enough points into strength to be able to maximize the sword and shield tree (base 30 unmodified) with the rest going into dexterity. Solo / self buffed my on the sheet (after completing DA:O at level 23) attack / defense / armor were 164, 131, 37 respectively...



...so in short, and reply to the original poster, yes going dexterity based and using a dagger can be very good indeed. However, trying to do this with Alastair I've found a lot less effective as; firstly he doesn't get the fade bonuses to boost his stats, secondly, you are unlikely to use books to boost his stats and thirdly you are less likely to spend a fortune equipping him to the teeth!

[eschilde]

Well, I've heard that going dex-based with a sword+board makes for a better tank because you get hit less. Damage isn't my priority, I was just wondering how I could maximize it for the build I was going with. Can't hurt to do as much damage as you can, eh?

[dkjestrup]

Here is the simple stat allocation:

35 strength (including fade if PC) You can use items for the other 7 points. I know you could put less in, but I chose items that are easy to get early in the game: Helm of Honleath, Harvest Festival Ring, Ornate Leather Belt, Key to the City.

Max dex

Don't touch anything else (except 1 point in cunning if you're not a human, so you can get 16 cun with fade bonuses, for Master Persuade). Yes, daggers>fullsized weapons. But if you're on console, and thus dex doesn't count for dagger damage, use an axe like the Veshaille or a Longsword like Topsider's Honor. I'm using the Veshaille and I'm doing good damage. Also, if you have a dual wield rogue in your party, who is using daggers, give him the Roses Thorn, but instead of giving him the Thorn of the Dead Gods, give him the t7 crows dagger with 3 rune slots instead. Mainly, because your tank won't get much out of 15% crit damage, but your rogue will. Your tank will benefit from increase AP from the TotDG though.

Modifié par dkjestrup, 13 janvier 2010 - 03:08 .

[Mr_Raider]

Actually daggers do 0.425 damage per point in dex. You will reach a crossover point if you keep on increasing dex. I equip Alistair with a dagger at later levels.

[Lord Phoebus]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Actually daggers do 0.425 damage per point in dex. You will reach a crossover point if you keep on increasing dex. I equip Alistair with a dagger at later levels.

You didn't factor in how speed factor affects DPS there since daggers had a speed factor of -0.5 and swords have a speed factor of -0.1.  I've heard that translates to daggers being about 15% faster.   So it would turn to be: 1.15*.85*(Strength+Dexterity-20)/2>(Strength-10) or .9775*Dexterity>1.0225*Strength-0.45,  which I'd just adjust to Dex>Strength.  Of course attack speed doesn't factor into special attacks since the animations for those are at a fixed attack rate.

[Mr_Raider]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

Mr_Raider wrote...

Actually daggers do 0.425 damage per point in dex. You will reach a crossover point if you keep on increasing dex. I equip Alistair with a dagger at later levels.

You didn't factor in how speed factor affects DPS there since daggers had a speed factor of -0.5 and swords have a speed factor of -0.1.  I've heard that translates to daggers being about 15% faster.   So it would turn to be: 1.15*.85*(Strength+Dexterity-20)/2>(Strength-10) or .9775*Dexterity>1.0225*Strength-0.45,  which I'd just adjust to Dex>Strength.  Of course attack speed doesn't factor into special attacks since the animations for those are at a fixed attack rate.

I thought the higher attack speed was only for two daggers? How do the following compare in speed:

Sword and shield
Dagger and shield
Sword and dagger
two daggers?

[dkjestrup]

Daggers are better weapons overall, and there are better daggers in the game. Thus, even if the longswords are equal damage wise, daggers are better.



They are better because rune damage or magical weapon spells (flaming weapons, frost weapons, telekinetic weapons etc) don't scale with weapon speed, which was a silly mistake by Bioware. Because of the strength of these, and with say, Affliction Hex, you will be doing a good 20 or more damage per hit with 3 GM elemental runes and a weapon enchantment.



How does this affect DPS? Lets just say for example that a longsword does 100 damage per hit, and hits once every second. A dagger does 50 damage per hit, and attacks once every 0.5 seconds. So they both do 100 DPS. Now add 20 damage from runes/spells into the equation. Longswords do 120 DPS. Daggers do 140 DPS.



That should show how daggers are far superior, let alone the fact that there are some amazing daggers in the game, like Dead Thaig Shanker, Rose's Thorn, Thorn of the Dead Gods, etc. For fullsized weapons, the only one that really competes is the Veshaille, although Keening Blade and Aodh are reasonable.

[Rakumn]

If I were to level a new char, and do shield and dagger. Where would I spend points in and what would I invest my talents in first?

[Mr_Raider]

42 strength for massive armor, the rest in dex. Start out using swords, and switch to daggers later in game.

[auxleyleonard]

Starfang is the only exception tho.

[dkjestrup]

Go 35 strength. You can easily wear everything with 35 strength and gear. I say 35, because it's particularly easy to get +7 strength through gear. Anything more generally takes ages or lots of money. Ornate Leather Belt, Helm of Honleath, Harvest Festival Ring, Key to the City.

[Xyrus7]

dkjestrup wrote...

Daggers are better weapons overall, and there are better daggers in the game. Thus, even if the longswords are equal damage wise, daggers are better.

They are better because rune damage or magical weapon spells (flaming weapons, frost weapons, telekinetic weapons etc) don't scale with weapon speed, which was a silly mistake by Bioware. Because of the strength of these, and with say, Affliction Hex, you will be doing a good 20 or more damage per hit with 3 GM elemental runes and a weapon enchantment.

How does this affect DPS? Lets just say for example that a longsword does 100 damage per hit, and hits once every second. A dagger does 50 damage per hit, and attacks once every 0.5 seconds. So they both do 100 DPS. Now add 20 damage from runes/spells into the equation. Longswords do 120 DPS. Daggers do 140 DPS.

That should show how daggers are far superior, let alone the fact that there are some amazing daggers in the game, like Dead Thaig Shanker, Rose's Thorn, Thorn of the Dead Gods, etc. For fullsized weapons, the only one that really competes is the Veshaille, although Keening Blade and Aodh are reasonable.

I cant agree with this for one reason. Even though dual wielding 2 dagger do +20 DPS than 2h they still aren't far superior. It's at a disadvantage considering that you are wielding two weapons compared to a 2h but there is a project that allows you to wield two 2h doubling the DPS(depends on weapon) and at the same speed as daggers. Therefore leveling the playing field.

[SusanStoHelit]

They're not dual wielding, they're using dagger + shield on a dex tank.

[JRHigley]

My first run-through I created a "balanced" weapon and Shield build. Near the end (level 19ish) I had 50 STR and 50 DEX. Being curious about this very question, I swapped back and forth between Longswords (Topsider's Honor and Keeingin Blade) and the Edge dagger.



What I saw was that for base damage (no runes) the Edge was still averaging 8-10 greater damage than the longswords. I've seen a couple of formulas above, but I'm not clear on which are accurate (and where some of the numbers come from). I'm not trying to be snarky, I just want to learn what the heck is going on behind the scenes.



Lord Phoebus posted the following: (0.85*dex>1.35*strength-5)

Where did these numbers come from? Why the 0.85 multiplier?

Is dagger damage = (Dex)(0.85)

Or is it dagger damage = (Dex-10)(0.85)

Or is it as Mr_Raider wrote dagger damage = (Dex)(0.85)(0.5) [He simplified the last two as (0.425)

Or, is it dagger damage = (Dex-10)(0.45)



Now that we've explored Dex, what about str?

What is the 1.35 multiplier to strength (and again is this Str-10) and where does the static -5 come from.



Finally, what effect does str have on dagger damage?



I was under the impression (and clearly I am very mixed up), that dagger damage was =



The particular dagger's base damage + (Dex-10)(0.5)(0.85)



Let me translate the above and ask you guys to correct me if I am wrong:



1. Daggers have a base damage (based on material, etc.);

2. Daggers receive no bonus from Str;

2. Daggers rely exclusively on dex for "additional" damage above and beyond the base;

3. For every point above 10 in dex, "additional" damage increases by 0.5;

4. As small weapons, daggers have a 0.85 penalty applied to this "additional" damage; and

5. The sum of the above is the "per hit" damage, therefore speed must be factored in as well.



Or am I way off? Does str (as Lord Phoebus wrote) affect daggers?



Per hit dagger damage= base damage + (0.85)(0.5)[(str-10)+(Dex-10)]



Translation (and again, correct me if I am wrong):



1. Daggers have a base damage (based on material, etc.);

2. Daggers receive "additional" damage based on both str and dex;

3. For every point in Str above 10, "additional" damage increases by 0.5;

4. For every point in dex above 10, "additional" damage increases by 0.5;

4. As small weapons, daggers have a 0.85 penalty applied to this "additional" damage; and

5. The sum of the above is the "per hit" damage, therefore speed must be factored in as well.



Okay, now on to speed factor:



Where do the speed factors come from (-0.5 for daggers and -0.1 for swords)?

What do these numbers mean?

How does one get "15% faster" out of -0.5 and -0.1?



If base speed is 1 and daggers have a speed factor of -0.5, doesn't that mean that they strike 50% faster than this base?

If longswords have a speed factor of -0.1, doesn't that mean they strike 10% faster than base?



If we call base speed 1 "round", doesn't this mean that over 10 "rounds", a dagger will strike 20 times and a longsword 11 times? That's way more than 15% (If my calculator is right, it's closer to 81% faster).



Finally, with respect to longswords, I was under the impression that "additional" damage increased by 0.5 for every point of str above 10, not a full point as above. This was my understanding of longswords (as well as all other one-handed weapons - maces/axes)



damage = base damage + (some multiplier)(0.5)(str-10)



where the multiplier is some static number based on the weapon type (Longsword/Axe/Mace).



Wow, this ran long. Thanks for reading and discussing.

[BlackVader]

Can't help you with the math (probably could but it's too much hassle ^^' ). However, for weapon base stats like speed factor, attribut modifiers and so on, I'd recommend checking the wiki or the missing manual. I'd probably go with the wiki as the manual seems to lack any updates lately, which is a shame, really.

Modifié par BlackVader, 15 janvier 2010 - 04:14 .

[Timortis]

JRHigley, Daggers get damage from both DEX and STR, it's (Dex-10+Str-10)*0.5*0.85

[Lord Phoebus]

JRHigley wrote...

My first run-through I created a "balanced" weapon and Shield build. Near the end (level 19ish) I had 50 STR and 50 DEX. Being curious about this very question, I swapped back and forth between Longswords (Topsider's Honor and Keeingin Blade) and the Edge dagger.

What I saw was that for base damage (no runes) the Edge was still averaging 8-10 greater damage than the longswords. I've seen a couple of formulas above, but I'm not clear on which are accurate (and where some of the numbers come from). I'm not trying to be snarky, I just want to learn what the heck is going on behind the scenes.

Lord Phoebus posted the following: (0.85*dex>1.35*strength-5)
Where did these numbers come from? Why the 0.85 multiplier?
Is dagger damage = (Dex)(0.85)
Or is it dagger damage = (Dex-10)(0.85)
Or is it as Mr_Raider wrote dagger damage = (Dex)(0.85)(0.5) [He simplified the last two as (0.425)
Or, is it dagger damage = (Dex-10)(0.45)

Now that we've explored Dex, what about str?
What is the 1.35 multiplier to strength (and again is this Str-10) and where does the static -5 come from.

It's simplified from this formula:
0.85*[(strength-10)+(dexterity-10)]/2>1.1*(Strength-10)
0.85*strength+0.85*dexterity-17>2.2*Strength-22
0.85*dexterity>1.35*Strength-5

This is the formula for special attacks dagger vs. axe since the animations are the same speed.

Finally, what effect does str have on dagger damage?

Same as dex.

Where do the speed factors come from (-0.5 for daggers and -0.1 for swords)?
What do these numbers mean?
How does one get "15% faster" out of -0.5 and -0.1?

The speed factors are from the wiki, and probably from the source files.  The base speed isn't 1, I'm not sure what it is but 3 seems to be roughly consistent with the results.  The 15% is annecdotal, it might be off since this is seen as compensation for the 0.85 damage modifier (though really that would be 17.6%) but daggers aren't 80% faster than swords.
 

Finally, with respect to longswords, I was under the impression that "additional" damage increased by 0.5 for every point of str above 10, not a full point as above. This was my understanding of longswords (as well as all other one-handed weapons - maces/axes)

damage = base damage + (some multiplier)(0.5)(str-10)

where the multiplier is some static number based on the weapon type (Longsword/Axe/Mace).

Wow, this ran long. Thanks for reading and discussing.

No it's full strength, or daggers would be insanely overpowered instead of just overpowered. 

Remember that the edge has a +5 to damage modifier which might account for some of the extra damage you're seeing.

[JRHigley]

Wow. Thanks for the responses!



Okay, so this makes sense:

Dagger damage = 0.85*[(strength-10)+(dexterity-10)]/2



And this is axe damage?

Axe damage = 1.1*(Strength-10)



What were these for?

0.85*strength + 0.85*dexterity-17



2.2*Strength-22



0.85*dexterity



1.35*Strength-5



And in the above, what do the static numbers represent (Str -5, Str -22, dex -17)?



Re: the Edge +5 damage...

I don't have it in front of me, but I think that the "total" base damage for the Edge is 11 (6 for silverite and the +5 you mentioned). This should be very close to the approx 11 (maybe 11.25, something like that) base damage from Topsider's honor and Keening Blade. That's why the difference struck me as odd.



"No it's full strength, or daggers would be insanely overpowered instead of just overpowered." - LOL



It just seems strange to me that a "balanced" character (equal strength and dex - recall 50/50 above) should do less damage with a longsword than with a dagger...



Last question: If I were feeling bold and wanted to correct this perceived imbalance,* where would you suggest making the tweak? Weapon speed? Weapon damage multiplier (1.1*axes, etc.), 2H multiplier (I think its something like 1.1 for greatswords and 1.25 for mauls...)?



*CAVEAT: This is my perception and mine alone. Please feel free to PM me with your flames along the lines of "You are an idiot! Daggers are NOT overpowered!" and "Daggers need to be faster, not slower!!!" and "Daggers are Nerfed!!!" and "2H is already SO overpowered" etc. etc. I'm more than happy to field your abuse, I just think the thread should remain as clean as possible.

[Timortis]

JRHigley wrote...
What were these for?
0.85*strength + 0.85*dexterity-17

2.2*Strength-22

0.85*dexterity

1.35*Strength-5

And in the above, what do the static numbers represent (Str -5, Str -22, dex -17)?

Phoebus was just doing algebra, to show the equation for where the crossover is for dagger vs axe damage in terms of stat distribution, that's what those numbers are.

[Lord Phoebus]

JRHigley wrote...

Re: the Edge +5 damage...
I don't have it in front of me, but I think that the "total" base damage for the Edge is 11 (6 for silverite and the +5 you mentioned). This should be very close to the approx 11 (maybe 11.25, something like that) base damage from Topsider's honor and Keening Blade. That's why the difference struck me as odd.

I'm not sure what it is?  The swords have an extra 0.6 of damage over the edge, but the Edge has 0.4 points of armor pentration over the Keening Blade and 2.4 over the Topsider's Honor. The Edge has a 7.2% critical chance while the swords have 4.2.

Is the extra damage based on attacks or the damage statistic on you character sheet?  The latter also includes critical chance and attack speed.  The damage per hit with the edge should be lower than the swords, but your DPS should be about the same.

Last question: If I were feeling bold and wanted to correct this perceived imbalance,* where would you suggest making the tweak? Weapon speed? Weapon damage multiplier (1.1*axes, etc.), 2H multiplier (I think its something like 1.1 for greatswords and 1.25 for mauls...)?

I would probably normalize the weapon speed, which would bring the weapons more in line.

[JRHigley]

Took your advice and started playing with the weapon speed a bit in the BITM_base file. I'm getting some nice results.



I've read a few complaints about the lumbering speed of 2H attacks and this might be a nice approach for those folks that want a change. (As an aside, I would note that if you boost attack speed for the various 2H weapons, enemies who wield them start dealing quite a bit more damage....)



I had a question though regarding the dagger and the 1.02 patch. I can see in BITM_base where the AttributeMod for the dagger is 0.85, but I don't know where the change was made giving setting the damage attribute for daggers at 50% dex and 50% str. Could anyone point me toward the file I'd need to edit (or maybe I'm just overlooking a field right in front of me)? I was thinking of making a mod for those that think daggers should be 100% dex or possibly 75% dex / 25% str.



Thanks.

[zevran]

whats the average crit. chance with a shield/dagger character? Asking that because with warden commander(even at the lowest tier) and red jenny seekers you could gain an amazing damage boost if the crit chance is a respectable level, though I guess that depends what gear you have.