92 réponses à ce sujet

[Blazomancer]

No, I'm not asking for a toolset, although it'd be nice to have one. Anyway, from what I've heard, and it isn't much, the frostbite engine is quite complex and hence games based on it are very difficult to mod. I'm no modder myself, so I don't know crap about tinkering with game resources without a toolset/kit. But if the number of mods are reduced to a bare minimum, how am I going to spend hundreds,no thousands, of hours playing DA:I? I'm worried.

[Fredward]

Yeah the limited era of being able to mod Bioware games seems to be over.

[Chiramu]

We just have to trust that Bioware will give us enough to work with so there is not need or want to mod, of course it means you'd have to forget about your complimentary nudie mods (with built in erections) jeez the Origins nude mod screenshots are so embarrassing >.>.

[K_Tabris]

You won't be...EA doesn't care for mods apparently, hence their bullsh!t stance on DRMs

[Conduit0]

How mod friendly a game is has little to do with the game engine and more to do with how the developers design the game. Games like Skyrim or DAO that are highly mod friendly, allow content to be added, altered, or removed simply by dropping a file into the appropriate folder. That kind of override behavior is independent of the game engine.

[AstraDrakkar]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

You won't be...EA doesn't care for mods apparently, hence their bullsh!t stance on DRMs

THIS^

[Melca36]

Chiramu wrote...

We just have to trust that Bioware will give us enough to work with so there is not need or want to mod, of course it means you'd have to forget about your complimentary nudie mods (with built in erections) jeez the Origins nude mod screenshots are so embarrassing >.>.

Um... There are MORE than NUDE mods out there. You make it sound like every mod for Origins is a Nude mod when that is NOT the case.

There happens to be some fantastic NON nude mods out there that gamers worked hard to create and they don't deserve to be stereotyped like that.

Have you seen the footage on youtube? You will see its more than just nude mods.

Modifié par Melca36, 06 mars 2013 - 09:20 .

[Robhuzz]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

NovinhaShepard wrote...

You won't be...EA doesn't care for mods apparently, hence their bullsh!t stance on DRMs

THIS^

Sadly this. I also have a feeling it's got to do with them wanting to put microtransactions in every game in the future. Proper mod support would allow us to create mods that do what you could do with the MAs and more.

At anyrate, I'm afraid the days of modding bioware games are over. Which is a shame. DAO is already far superior to DA2 and mods for DAO made the gap even bigger.

But if the number of mods are reduced to a bare minimum, how am I going to spend hundreds,no thousands, of hours playing DA:I? I'm worried.

Why would EA care about replayability? Playing a game twice doesn't earn them extra money. Better to play it once then put it away and buy a new EA game. At least from their point of view.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 06 mars 2013 - 09:22 .

[Wolfva2]

How true Rob! Why, if they cared about replayability they'd release downloadable content involving new missions, or companions! But when have they EVER done that! It is OBVIOUS they don't care! Why they...<blink><blink> hey...wait a second.......

[Fast Jimmy]

Wolfva2 wrote...

How true Rob! Why, if they cared about replayability they'd release downloadable content involving new missions, or companions! But when have they EVER done that! It is OBVIOUS they don't care! Why they...<blink><blink> hey...wait a second.......

The 2-3 DLCs that Bioware usually release for their games doesn't hold  a candle to the amount of mod content out there for DA:O. Besides, mods aren't all about story, quest or character content, but also about different gameplay mechanics, different cosmetic or appearance updates and fixing what many perceive to be errors in the base game, things DLC NEVER do. Not to mention every bit of official DLC is paid, while mods are free.

So... the sarcasm could be dropped, if you don't mind.

That being said, the Frostbite 2 engine has a real reputation for being unmoddable. Not difficult to mod or hard for modders to use... but unmoddable. DICE (creators of the FrostBite 2 engine and a subsidiary of EA) took great pride in saying BF3 was 100% unmoddable. Turns out some really harccore modders took that as a challenge and, after and extreme amount of work, were able to change some colors... a small, tiny, insignificant thing in terms of the amount of work apparently involved. And then the modders in question apparently got banned for it.

So I wouldn't go into DA3 with any sort of mod expectations or hopes. If you keep them as low as possible (as I'm trying to do for many aspects of the game, honestly, to prevent the crashing of said expectations I felt when I played DA2 and ME3), then if anything does manage to be moddable, it will be seen as a bonus, rather than table scraps compared to previous games.

[Blazomancer]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
...the Frostbite 2 engine has a real reputation for being unmoddable. Not difficult to mod or hard for modders to use... but unmoddable. DICE (creators of the FrostBite 2 engine and a subsidiary of EA) took great pride in saying BF3 was 100% unmoddable. Turns out some really harccore modders took that as a challenge and, after and extreme amount of work, were able to change some colors... a small, tiny, insignificant thing in terms of the amount of work apparently involved. And then the modders in question apparently got banned for it.

So I wouldn't go into DA3 with any sort of mod expectations or hopes. If you keep them as low as possible (as I'm trying to do for many aspects of the game, honestly, to prevent the crashing of said expectations I felt when I played DA2 and ME3), then if anything does manage to be moddable, it will be seen as a bonus, rather than table scraps compared to previous games.

Oh, that's worse. So, it means that even if some hardcore modders manage to come up with something, however minor, they will most probably be reprimanded by DICE. Sad, real sad.

[Maverick827]

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy modding, even if it's just to download fixes for bugs, high res textures, or new skins for armor, let alone entire quest lines and all of the crazy things you can get for Skyrim.

With that said, I completely understand BioWare's straying away from the practice. I'm not sure what industry all of you work in, but it's fair to say that it hinges on the use of some tool or another. Maybe you're an officer worker using a piece of software or maybe you're a carpenter using some sort of construction tool.

Regardless, imagine you were working with an outdated version of that tool. The software constantly crashes on you; you're using a manual screw driver instead of an electric one. Wouldn't you jump at the chance to get your hands on a brand new, top-shelf tool? That's what the Frostbite 2 engine is to a game studio.

As far as I know, DA2 was powered by the Lycium engine, which was a modified Eclipse engine, which was a modified Odyssey engine, which was a modified Aurora engine, which was created more than a decade ago. That would be like having to use Windows 2000 at work. When your boss gets the chance to upgrade everyone to Windows 7, he takes it.

[Blazomancer]

Maverick827 wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy modding, even if it's just to download fixes for bugs, high res textures, or new skins for armor, let alone entire quest lines and all of the crazy things you can get for Skyrim.

With that said, I completely understand BioWare's straying away from the practice. I'm not sure what industry all of you work in, but it's fair to say that it hinges on the use of some tool or another. Maybe you're an officer worker using a piece of software or maybe you're a carpenter using some sort of construction tool.

Regardless, imagine you were working with an outdated version of that tool. The software constantly crashes on you; you're using a manual screw driver instead of an electric one. Wouldn't you jump at the chance to get your hands on a brand new, top-shelf tool? That's what the Frostbite 2 engine is to a game studio.

As far as I know, DA2 was powered by the Lycium engine, which was a modified Eclipse engine, which was a modified Odyssey engine, which was a modified Aurora engine, which was created more than a decade ago. That would be like having to use Windows 2000 at work. When your boss gets the chance to upgrade everyone to Windows 7, he takes it.

That's understandable. But why frostbite? Why not something else that allows for a little bit of modding even without a toolset? Or may be bioware could have come up with their own new engine. May be it's easier said than done; if that is so, I apologize. What I'm wondering is if other recent games can continue the practice, why should the Dragon Age franchise stray away from it?

[mousestalker]

I'm planning to wait and see. The modding community has spoken and Bioware personnel have acknowledged that their voices have been heard. Right now there is insufficient data for anyone to really be able to form educated opinions.

So there is no reason to borrow trouble by anticipating. There will be plenty of time for posting emotionally over wrought responses later.

[Fast Jimmy]

Blazomancer wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
...the Frostbite 2 engine has a real reputation for being unmoddable. Not difficult to mod or hard for modders to use... but unmoddable. DICE (creators of the FrostBite 2 engine and a subsidiary of EA) took great pride in saying BF3 was 100% unmoddable. Turns out some really harccore modders took that as a challenge and, after and extreme amount of work, were able to change some colors... a small, tiny, insignificant thing in terms of the amount of work apparently involved. And then the modders in question apparently got banned for it.

So I wouldn't go into DA3 with any sort of mod expectations or hopes. If you keep them as low as possible (as I'm trying to do for many aspects of the game, honestly, to prevent the crashing of said expectations I felt when I played DA2 and ME3), then if anything does manage to be moddable, it will be seen as a bonus, rather than table scraps compared to previous games.

Oh, that's worse. So, it means that even if some hardcore modders manage to come up with something, however minor, they will most probably be reprimanded by DICE. Sad, real sad. 

To be fair, the reason why they were banned was because the new color mod was stated to give players who used the mod an advantage in multiplayer, allowing the player to see other players more easily at a distance.

However, if DA3 has MP, it might be wise to assume any mod work will be viewed with extreme prejudice. 

[Maverick827]

Blazomancer wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy modding, even if it's just to download fixes for bugs, high res textures, or new skins for armor, let alone entire quest lines and all of the crazy things you can get for Skyrim.

With that said, I completely understand BioWare's straying away from the practice. I'm not sure what industry all of you work in, but it's fair to say that it hinges on the use of some tool or another. Maybe you're an officer worker using a piece of software or maybe you're a carpenter using some sort of construction tool.

Regardless, imagine you were working with an outdated version of that tool. The software constantly crashes on you; you're using a manual screw driver instead of an electric one. Wouldn't you jump at the chance to get your hands on a brand new, top-shelf tool? That's what the Frostbite 2 engine is to a game studio.

As far as I know, DA2 was powered by the Lycium engine, which was a modified Eclipse engine, which was a modified Odyssey engine, which was a modified Aurora engine, which was created more than a decade ago. That would be like having to use Windows 2000 at work. When your boss gets the chance to upgrade everyone to Windows 7, he takes it.

That's understandable. But why frostbite? Why not something else that allows for a little bit of modding even without a toolset? Or may be bioware could have come up with their own new engine. May be it's easier said than done; if that is so, I apologize. What I'm wondering is if other recent games can continue the practice, why should the Dragon Age franchise stray away from it?

Frostbite 2 was made by DICE, which is owned by EA, so that's probably a huge factor in why it was chosen.  The next Mass Effect game will be built with the Frostbite 2 engine as well.

Making your own engine is literally the hardest and most time consuming portion of game development.  It is extremely expensive and, to put it bluntly, some studios just aren't as good at it as others.  Not every painter mixes his own paint, so to speak.  There were likely extremely specific factors that had to be met for another Dragon Age game to be greenlit, and building a new engine from the ground up was not one of them.

Modifié par Maverick827, 06 mars 2013 - 02:55 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Agreed.

I can't say I blame the decision. Reconciling resources across developers so that all the different studios under one publisher aren't just independently working apart from each other, but sharing and pooling resources is pretty ingenious and can help maximize efficiencies by preventing redundancies.

DICE built an amazing engine and used it to great success with the latest Battlefield game. They can then have a dedicated team to both optimizing this engine, as well as developing tools that a FPS shooter would never use, but that an RPG might (like a complex dialogue system) or that a sci-fi series would (like the use of a physics module that can take into account things like biotics).

DICE has constant engine work in addition to their own games, meaning more resources can be leveraged to making it the best engine it can be not just for one game or developer, but many... while other studios like Bioware can focus on outlining exactly what they want from their tools and and creating content.

It all make perfect sense. As does the fact that EA would want an engine that can be used for multiplayer for any game they choose. The downfall is that by making an engine that can. Allow for no cheating in multiplayer, it also makes it pretty much airtight against fan-created mods, at least without an official toolkit.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 mars 2013 - 07:20 .

[Steppenwolf]

EA has other game engines to offer. The Frostbite 2 engine was designed with unmodibility in mind and people from DICE have said that they strongly oppose modding, so getting a toolkit is pretty much never going to happen. The era of Bioware toolkits is over. We got one for Origins because that was a labor of love with gamers in mind. Bioware now must worry about shareholders instead of customers and shareholders don't like time being spent on features that a minority of customers will utilize, no matter the fact that modding extends the life of PC games.

Modifié par BasilKarlo, 06 mars 2013 - 09:05 .

[Maverick827]

BasilKarlo wrote...

EA has other game engines to offer.

Do they?

EA has predominately used two engines over the past few years:  Unreal and Frostbite.

Unreal was used in titles such as Mass Effect, Mirror's Edge, and Army of Two.

Frostbite was/is used in titles such as Battlefield (starting with Bad Company, previously the series used the Refractor Engine) and Need for Speed.

EA studioes Visceral Games and Crytek have historically used their own in-house engines (the Visceral Engine and the CryEngine, respectively) for Dead Space and Dante's Infero (Visceral) and Crysis (Crytek).

So I would say your list of engines that EA would even look at are:

1.  Frostbite 2
2.  Ureal Engine 4
4.  CryEngine 3
3.  A BioWare in-house engine

Seeing as BioWare has been patching the same in-house engine for about fifteen years and I'd assume it's turned into some sort of Rube Goldberg machine by now, we can rule out #4.  

Frostbite, Unreal, and CryEngine all compete in that "ultra high res graphics next gen engine" category, and since EA owns two of them we can rule out the Unreal Engine (even if it were somehow objectively better, I doubt it would be better enough to warrant paying for it - I don't know of any future EA games that are using the Unreal engine; it appears as if ME3 was the last and it's phased out).

So now you have the Frostbite Engine vs the Crytek Engine.  While the Crytek Engine has a decent history of modability, I wouldn't say that, given all of the other factors one has to take into account when picking a game engine, it is in any way unreasonable to have chosen the Frostbite Engine when it comes down to just these two, which it likely did.

Modifié par Maverick827, 06 mars 2013 - 10:58 .

[Steppenwolf]

>making an RPG
>"time to choose an engine. the unmoddable engine, or the moddable one?"
>"let's go with the unmoddable one for our RPG"

Modifié par BasilKarlo, 06 mars 2013 - 11:18 .

[Atakuma]

BasilKarlo wrote...

>making an RPG
>"time to choose an engine. the unmoddable engine, or the moddable one?"
>"let's go with the unmoddable one for our RPG"

Yeah, because every RPG has mods right?

[Maverick827]

BasilKarlo wrote...

>making an RPG
>"time to choose an engine. the unmoddable engine, or the moddable one?"
>"let's go with the unmoddable one for our RPG"

How mod-friendly are any of the three Mass Effect games you own?

[nicethugbert]

Don't worry. Other companies see the value of mod tools for their games. EA and BW are not the only gaming companies in the world.

[Steppenwolf]

Atakuma wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

>making an RPG
>"time to choose an engine. the unmoddable engine, or the moddable one?"
>"let's go with the unmoddable one for our RPG"

Yeah, because every RPG has mods right?

Every Dragon Age RPG. Every Bioware RPG.

Maverick827 wrote...

How mod-friendly are any of the three Mass Effect games you own?

Enough to add custom aesthetic content and run high-resolution texture mods at least.