98 réponses à ce sujet

[WardenWade]

I personally have a big interest in, and soft spot for, the city elves.  In considering the possibilities of Inquisition in general, we see the shearing off of the Templar Order.  It seems like many consider this to be indicative of an overall weakening of the Chantry itself in the face of the mage/templar conflict, Qunari incursions, and so on.

Considering that the Chantry, under Divine Renata I, ordered the establishment of the alienages as what seems to me a sort of obligation after the fall of the Dales, what does the BSN think of their future?  If the Chantry does indeed crumble or even (as an extreme possibility) dissolve, do you think they might be disbanded as a vestigial institution by a seriously weakened Chantry?  Do you think the general populace might no longer feel obliged to support the city elves in any way (however much the human cities might support the alienages specifically), and might actively turn against them in the course of the Inquisition?  And, if the alienages were overthrown or dissolved somehow and the city elves forced out, could that be a blessing in disguise for them or merely a fast track to greater unhappiness?

I've just been considering the other populations that a serious breakdown of the overarching order could affect, and it seems possible that city elves might be in jeopardy in their own way, much as the future of mages, templars and the average citizen might be in question.

Thanks for reading and considering

Modifié par WardenWade, 06 mars 2013 - 12:50 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I personally don't think the Chantry itself is going to be dissolved - after all, the tenets of Andrastianism are still the dominant religion in Thedas. The issues with the Templars are that they no longer respect the authority of the Divine; a major divide, to be sure... but not the end of the Chantry proper. The Chantry's regulation of Mages via the Templars is just one (rather small) aspect of the Chantry's responsibilities.

That being said, I believe that DA3 will be a huge time of change for Thedas and I think the elves will play a large role in this. Between the Orlesian Civil War, the Mage/Templar War as well as the threat of the Qunari and the rumored rift between the Fade and Mundus that has demons pouring through, there is going to be a lot of fighting. And in times of widespread conflict, people suddenly stop becoming picky about what race you are as long as you can either stab an enemy or take an arrow in place of someone else.

I would be really interested to see if the Chantry tries win the elven support by repeating a similar deal that Andraste did with Shartan. People forget that before the Exalted March by Andraste against Tevinter, they had previously fallen to centuries of slavery under the Imperium, losing countless amounts of language, culture and history. The founding of the Dales by the elves was an attempt to reclaim their lost heritage and was a successful attempt until the conflict after the Second Blight which created the events which lead to the Exalted March against the Dales.

Maybe after spending even more centuries in the presence of humans and with very little left in terms of culture or lore, the elves could rally under one nation once again for their assistance in DA3. And maybe they might even not completely cut themselves off from humans this time and create all sorts of issues that lead to eventual antagonism and war.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe after spending even more centuries in the presence of humans and with very little left in terms of culture or lore, the elves could rally under one nation once again for their assistance in DA3. And maybe they might even not completely cut themselves off from humans this time and create all sorts of issues that lead to eventual antagonism and war.

But... that's not even a good thing. The elves need to have their own nation again; whether or not it comes to another war is likely the humans' choice, as it's ever been. Either way, the elves should not, as a race, just submit to human nations.

[KingsTiger]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe after spending even more centuries in the presence of humans and with very little left in terms of culture or lore, the elves could rally under one nation once again for their assistance in DA3. And maybe they might even not completely cut themselves off from humans this time and create all sorts of issues that lead to eventual antagonism and war.

But... that's not even a good thing. The elves need to have their own nation again; whether or not it comes to another war is likely the humans' choice, as it's ever been. Either way, the elves should not, as a race, just submit to human nations.

You're assuming they're "submitting" to human control; who's to say they won't be incorporated, as free citizens? Yes, there's an enormous amount of difficulties with that, but DA:3 will probably bring an enormous amount of change to Thedas, in all shapes. It's not out of the question.
Also, an elven nation would probably be a ramshackle thing at best, ripe for exploitation. They'd have to set up a government, figure out how to allocate resources and land... I really don't see that going too well.

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe after spending even more centuries in the presence of humans and with very little left in terms of culture or lore, the elves could rally under one nation once again for their assistance in DA3. And maybe they might even not completely cut themselves off from humans this time and create all sorts of issues that lead to eventual antagonism and war.

But... that's not even a good thing. The elves need to have their own nation again; whether or not it comes to another war is likely the humans' choice, as it's ever been. Either way, the elves should not, as a race, just submit to human nations.

Hmmmm. Not sure where I said that.

I was simply saying the reason the Dales fell after Andraste made her deal with Shartan was that be elves tried to purify themselves of human influence to re-attain their immortality. This aloofness was hard for diplomatic relations, but the complete lack of any help by the Elves in the Second Blight (for instance, the razing of the town of Mintharlas [sp?] by the Darkspawn while the Daliah army stood by and watched, doing nothing) led to the anti-Elven sentiment that led to the events of the Secone Exalted March.

Not to say the Chantry didn't have (a large amount) of culpability in what happened, it was the Elves desire to completely separate themselves from any and all human contact that set the stage for things. If the elves do get their own nation again, maybe they will learn that completely removing themselves from all the other races in Thedas as much as possible will ultimately lead to friction and eventual conflict with said races.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 mars 2013 - 02:28 .

[Xilizhra]

You're assuming they're "submitting" to human control; who's to say they won't be incorporated, as free citizens? Yes, there's an enormous amount of difficulties with that, but DA:3 will probably bring an enormous amount of change to Thedas, in all shapes. It's not out of the question.
Also, an elven nation would probably be a ramshackle thing at best, ripe for exploitation. They'd have to set up a government, figure out how to allocate resources and land... I really don't see that going too well.

We will, of course, need to see DAI to see how this would need to go.

Not to say the Chantry didn't have (a large amount) of culpability in what happened, it was the Elves desire to completely separate themselves from any and all human contact that set the stage for things. If the elves do get their own nation again, maybe they will learn that completely removing themselves from all the other races in Thedas as much as possible will ultimately lead to friction and eventual conflict with said races.

If contact with humans literally kills elves, they can hardly be expected to open contact with them, can they? Morally speaking, it'd be up to humans to respect the elven desire for isolation. Though dwarves don't seem to be toxic to elves, so maybe they could use dwarf go-betweens.

[Fast Jimmy]

It doesn't kill elves. It reduces their lifespan, sure... but it reduces it to the same level as all other races.

I would feel sympathy for the elves if there were any left alive who were born with the promise of immortality and humans snatched it away... but no elf in nearly a millennia has been born with the blessing of immortality. Especially considering the knowledge of how this immortality was obtained is contained only in myths and legends.

On the other hand, since nearly every elf born in the last centuries since the fall of the Dales has been either a wandering nomad, an abjectly poor city dweller living in the slums or a slave in be Tevinter empire, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, it might be worth considering that the immortality that no elf alive has ever tasted might be too lofty of a goal when compared with the guaranteed poverty, bloodshed and overall loss the race is experiencing because of their instincts to insulate themselves every time they experience an ounce of sovereignty.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 mars 2013 - 02:46 .

[Xilizhra]

It doesn't kill elves. It reduces their lifespan, sure... but it reduces it to the same level as all other races.

Which is death. It's effectively infecting them with a 100%-fatal wasting disease and then being smugly self-righteous about it. Humans are a whole race of Typhoid Marys, if the Quickening is true.

On the other hand, since nearly every elf born in the last centuries since the fall of the Dales has been either a wandering nomad, an abjectly poor city dweller living in the slums or a slave in be Tevinter empire, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, it might be worth considering that the immortality that no elf alive has ever tasted might be too lofty of a goal when compared with the guaranteed poverty, bloodshed and overall loss the race is experiencing because of their instincts to insulate themselves every time they experience an ounce of sovereignty.

If war and conquest are all the humans desire, perhaps that's what they should get, if the elves ever gain enough power to ensure that. I can agree with a certain amount of control on mages because of the abomination thing posing a threat to them and others; similarly, if humans are inevitable doom to elves by their very nature, they too should be controlled.

[Wulfram]

City Elves are pretty screwed. Even if an elvish homeland comes to be, odds are it'll be controlled by the Dalish who won't want a bunch of Andrasteans in their midst.

[Xilizhra]

Wulfram wrote...

City Elves are pretty screwed. Even if an elvish homeland comes to be, odds are it'll be controlled by the Dalish who won't want a bunch of Andrasteans in their midst.

City elves seem to convert out of Andrastianism very easily, which is hardly surprising.

[Fast Jimmy]

If war and conquest are all the humans desire, perhaps that's what they should get, if the elves ever gain enough power to ensure that.

I'm still not sure where I said anything like this. In both times humanity has ground the elves down to dust, the elves struck first. First the elves attacked the Tevinters, who retaliated with oblivion and then the elves attacking the Chantry-controlled city and received a similar beating. Both kicked off by fairly minor incidents that could have been easily diffused if diplomatic relations were stronger.

If a dwarf kills tons of elves and humans (for instance, the way Bartrand does when he goes crazy in his mansion), it is considered the actions of a lone dwarf, not the actions of Orzammar. That's because trade, diplomacy and culture all are exchanged regularly with the dwarves. And even they are considered pretty isolationist.

The Dalish, on the other hand, shoot on sight any outsiders. If that same policy was extrapolated to international politics (which it seems like it was in the past), then that is just looking for a war to start, not just wanting to be left alone.

Who knows? Maybe the irrational hatred Daliah have towards humans is what caused them to fall out of harmony and become mortal. All we know is that the Dalish stopped being immortal after they encountered humans. Maybe it was because that's when they started being a bunch of haters.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 mars 2013 - 03:25 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm still not sure where I said anything like this. In both times humanity has ground the elves down to dust, the elves struck first. First the elves attacked the Tevinters, who retaliated with oblivion and then the elves attacking the Chantry-controlled city and received a similar beating. Both kicked off by fairly minor incidents that could have been easily diffused if diplomatic relations were stronger.

The first one, I haven't the faintest idea where you got it; the Tevinter Imperium just wanted to conquer Arlathan. The second one is Chantry propaganda and we have no reason to believe it's more true than the Dalish version.

The Dalish, on the other hand, shoot on sight any outsiders. If that same policy was extrapolated to international politics (which it seems like it was in the past), then that is just looking for a war to start, not just wanting to be left alone.

It varies. The Sabrae clan threatened that, but they're a bunch of trigger-happy morons, as more fully revealed in DA2. Zathrian's clan just asked outsiders what they were doing near the Dalish camp. So no, it's not a Dalish-wide policy.

Who knows? Maybe the irrational hatred Daliah have towards humans is what caused them to fall out of harmony and become mortal. All we know is that the Dalish stopped being immortal after they encountered humans. Maybe it was because that's when they started being a bunch of haters.

I find this grievously unlikely, as they were fine with dwarves, and there's no reason to believe that humans would ****** them off immediately until humans started killing them.

[BlueMagitek]

Do we actually have anything other than myth that elves used to be immortal?

If yes, do we have any proof that it is reduced by contact with humans, instead of the Tevinter just ruining their knowledge of how over an age of slavery?

And no, Dalish living longer than City Elves is not proof because I imagine a wandering nomadic band would be more fit and better fed than a city slum dweller.

[Xilizhra]

And no, Dalish living longer than City Elves is not proof because I imagine a wandering nomadic band would be more fit and better fed than a city slum dweller.

Zathrian lived for centuries. People said it was unusual, but not unique; ipso facto, there've been other Dalish who've lived for centuries.

[BlueMagitek]

And we know how he acquired it. Unless there are multiple Dalish living for centuries without interference of a spirit or demon or any sort of magic, I'm going to need to ask you for more evidence.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And we know how he acquired it. Unless there are multiple Dalish living for centuries without interference of a spirit or demon or any sort of magic, I'm going to need to ask you for more evidence.

There's no proof that other Dalish who've lived for centuries have had to rely on spirit interference. Also, while proof that the elves were once immortal isn't quite certain at this point, there's also no real evidence that they weren't. Of course, the burden of proof is on me, but I don't have any other evidence to battle against.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

And no, Dalish living longer than City Elves is not proof because I imagine a wandering nomadic band would be more fit and better fed than a city slum dweller.

Zathrian lived for centuries. People said it was unusual, but not unique; ipso facto, there've been other Dalish who've lived for centuries.

There have been two humans that have done just that in the game as well, Avernus and the Guardian.

Granted, neither of them met many humans, so maybe contact with humans kill humans too.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 06 mars 2013 - 04:26 .

[Fast Jimmy]

All of this aside... No elf has attained immortality in thousands of years. For a normal life to be considered "killing" them is ignorant. It is the life expectancy that has been ingrained into their culture's mindset for almost as long as real-life humanity has had the wheel.

Any elf getting bent out of shape about it to the point where they risk an existence of war, death and poverty for their entire race under the thumb of humans if they are offered another chance to rebuild their society and culture has got to be one of the most selfish people in existence.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

City Elves are pretty screwed. Even if an elvish homeland comes to be, odds are it'll be controlled by the Dalish who won't want a bunch of Andrasteans in their midst.

Actually it is part of the core Dalish creed to accept "flat ears" back into the fold and teach them what they've lost.  The City Elves would be welcome in any hypothetical new Elven kingdom set up by the Dalish.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

There have been two humans that have done just that in the game as well, Avernus and the Guardian.

Avernus wasn't immortal, he was still aging and said that he was about to die anyway (granted, he aged extremely slowly, but he clearly wasn't like Zathrian, who didn't age at all). The Guardian is interesting, though seems to be at least partially spirit...

All of this aside... No elf has attained immortality in thousands of years. For a normal life to be considered "killing" them is ignorant. It is the life expectancy that has been ingrained into their culture's mindset for almost as long as real-life humanity has had the wheel.

No, not even slightly. Reducing anyone's lifespan by a degree that significant, no matter what their culture, is killing them via disease. You can't just handwave the deaths of millions by claiming culture.

Any elf getting bent out of shape about it to the point where they risk an existence of war, death and poverty for their entire race under the thumb of humans if they are offered another chance to rebuild their society and culture has got to be one of the most selfish people in existence.

It'll take time for elves to be able to deal with humans properly, to be sure but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be worked toward.

[Fast Jimmy]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And no, Dalish living longer than City Elves is not proof because I imagine a wandering nomadic band would be more fit and better fed than a city slum dweller.

Zathrian lived for centuries. People said it was unusual, but not unique; ipso facto, there've been other Dalish who've lived for centuries.

There have been two humans that have done just that in the game as well, Avernus and the Guardian.

Granted, neither of them met many humans, so maybe contact with humans kill humans too.

DESTROY ALL HUMANS. DESTROY ALL HUMANS.

[BlueMagitek]

Fast Jimmy has a much better point than mine.  Again. ~_~"

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

And we know how he acquired it. Unless there are multiple Dalish living for centuries without interference of a spirit or demon or any sort of magic, I'm going to need to ask you for more evidence.

There's no proof that other Dalish who've lived for centuries have had to rely on spirit interference. Also, while proof that the elves were once immortal isn't quite certain at this point, there's also no real evidence that they weren't. Of course, the burden of proof is on me, but I don't have any other evidence to battle against.

We have never met any of these other Dalish.  There was no proof that Zathrian was relying on spirit interference either. 

You only have the current lifespan of the Dalish, who live longer than the slum-living city elves.  All of their isolation from humans has not yet won them immortality, and they've been doing it since the fall of the Dales.

[Xilizhra]

DESTROY ALL HUMANS. DESTROY ALL HUMANS.

Well, if humans will destroy all elves...

You only have the current lifespan of the Dalish, who live longer than the slum-living city elves. All of their isolation from humans has not yet won them immortality, and they've been doing it since the fall of the Dales.

Longer than the Circle-dwelling city elves too. In any case, they still have to pass near humans sometimes.

[BlueMagitek]

Where was the lifespan of a Circle elf and a Dalish elf compared?

So,how far away must humans stay for the Dalish to have this supposed immortality? If they want distance so much, they should just leave. The Qunari came from somewhere off of Thedas. But now, they sit and stew lavishing their own superiority against the city elves and their disdain for humans.