98 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

It'll take time for elves to be able to deal with humans properly, to be sure but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be worked toward.

Elves taking no action whatsoever to help the other races of Thedas fight the Darkspawn and end the Second Blight was the set up for their demise. Sure, the Chantry looked at them as possible converts with envious eyes, but it wasn't until public sentiment was so against them for the complete inaction due to selfishly chasing a myth of immortality that the other nations sat aside and watched as Orlais burned the Dales down.

People can say it was "humans" or even "the Chantry" but ultimately it was waged by the Orlesian empire. An exalted march announced by the Divine at the direction of the empire.

Could the dwarves, long standing allies of the elves, not stood up? Could not Rivain, who does not have a strong tie to the Chantry? Could not Antiva? Of course they could have. But no one did. Because the elves lost every friend in Thedas they had when they stood by and did nothing while the rest of the world burned in order to protect their precious immortality.

The elves need to move on. One should not make public and diplomatic policy based off of legends. Yet that is what the elves have done time and time again, to the detriment of their entire race. Their pride and their selfishness constantly set them at odds with the rest of the world, and then they call foul when it results in them constantly being subjugated when they lose said wars.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 mars 2013 - 04:39 .

[The Hierophant]

Elven immortality seems like propaganda as the only long lived elf we encountered was bound by a blood magic ritual. It's possible that the elves had naturally longer lifespans, and were so proficient with blood magic that it appeared as if they were immortals.

[Xilizhra]

The elves need to move on. One should not make public and diplomatic policy based off of legends. Yet that is what the elves have done time and time again, to the detriment of their entire race. Their pride and their selfishness constantly set them at odds with the rest of the world, and then they call foul when it results in them constantly being subjugated when they lose said wars.

Such is effective murder of the entire elven race, and should not be countenanced. I agree that the elves should put it aside... temporarily, in order to regain a position of power. But the instant that they can hold something over to the humans to neutralize their ability to be a threat, they should do so.

[Fast Jimmy]

In real life, humans live much longer than we did previously due to the use if modern medicine and better food-preservation methods.

Yet are modern Mennonites committing murder when they refuse to use modern technology? No, it is simply a change to their cultural mindset - not many people live to be 75 in their culture. To them, it is totally normal and fine. To die before age of 60 is not unheard of. It is not the same as taking a 60 year old person and throwing them off the side of a building.

Here's the facts: the elves are brutally oppressed right now. Just like they were by the Tevinter Empire. If given a new country as terms for their help in this new war, they then want to isolate themselves and not intervene or interact with the other races, even in the case of a Blight which faces to destroy the entire world, then they can expect their sovereign nation to be as short lived as their last one was.

They should not be forced to live alongside humans or be subservient to them in any way... but they cannot live in a bubble, where the other races of Thedas simply don't exist to them. It is an exercise in futility and will only earn them the scorn of the other races. Increased life spans don't matter all that much when you have a lance jammed through your chest.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 mars 2013 - 05:35 .

[WardenWade]

I just wanted to say thank you for the thoughtful replies so far, all

And with the direction of the current discussion I just wanted to add my two cents... These are great points about the interaction between the races IMO victimization and exploitation can come painfully easy to either side of this equation, human or city/Dalish elf (or other). Ideally, and optimistically, culpability and compassion can indeed be shared equally in the future, and especially with great change seeming to be on the horizon.

As I see it, the current situation is one of the races being yoked together, willingly or not, as they head into the future. This is something I feel city elves understand intimately, and hopefully level heads will prevail. Hahren Valendrian, for one, always seemed a good example to me of a city elf who recognized the need to not simply push away human intervention (such as his friendship with Duncan and his seemingly respectful, if tense, relationship with the city guard in the CE origin) while maintaining elven culture, and humans like Aveline who ultimately begin to help tear down "glass ceilings" for other races in their ranks are a great start as well.

Thanks again for the discussion on this! And as some of the replies have touched on the immortality aspect of elven culture and lore, I was curious if you thought the situation might be any different reversed? If, for example, the much more numerous human population had once been immortal and sought to isolate itself to regain that? Do you think the situation would be much the same as it is now or would you see necessary differences?

[Fast Jimmy]

^

If the roles were reversed, humans would have made the elves extinct rather than simply enslave them. The elves missed that opportunity when they ran from the humans when the first say the effects of their association instead of taking the offensive. This running led to wide open conquest by the humans, which became the Tevinter Imperium.

Not saying that the elves were wrong, but when the Tevinter Imperium demolished the Elven civilization, they would have laid every elf to the sword as they did so. Again, not saying it is right or wrong, but it would have been the reality if the humans were the ones who lost their immortality in the presence of the elves.


That being said, it is all a bit of a wash now. The elves aren't immortal anymore. There's no clear evidence that they ever will be again. If they can be, they would need even more isolation from humans than the Dalish already have for a longer period of time (keep in mind, the Dalish clans have been nomadic since the end of the Second Exalted March hundreds of years ago). Expecting things to be anymore likely on the immortality front when you have your own nation with cities that would depend on trade and interaction with other races at least in part seems to be grasping at straws at this point.

If they had their own country and wanted to do research into the metaphysical and magical reasoning behind the shortening of their lives and if there was a way to counteract it, I think this would be infinitely more effective than hiding out in the woods for centuries while their numbers dwindle and their people who live in cities are sentenced to lives of poverty and hopelessness.

[Xilizhra]

Yet are modern Mennonites committing murder when they refuse to use modern technology? No, it is simply a change to their cultural mindset - not many people live to be 75 in their culture. To them, it is totally normal and fine. To die before age of 60 is not unheard of. It is not the same as taking a 60 year old person and throwing them off the side of a building.

I would consider it child abuse, at the very least, to raise children to believe that you should let yourself die from lack of access to modern technology. And murder-by-neglect if they don't use it to treat their children's illnesses.

Here's the facts: the elves are brutally oppressed right now. Just like they were by the Tevinter Empire. If given a new country as terms for their help in this new war, they then want to isolate themselves and not intervene or interact with the other races, even in the case of a Blight which faces to destroy the entire world, then they can expect their sovereign nation to be as short lived as their last one was.

I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating that they interact with other races, grow in power, then find a way to leverage it into removing the threat that humans pose to them, somehow, be it by inoculating themselves from the Quickening or just from subjugating humans if it must be necessary for elves to live.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

So we are in agreement.

[Xilizhra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

So we are in agreement.

Only in the sense that it's a regrettable necessity, not a moral obligation.

[Fast Jimmy]

In my mind, moral obligation and self-interest are often so overlapped that they rarely conflict.

[BlueMagitek]

Eh, the Dalish won't grow in power so long as they hold to their traditions, and their traditions hold them back (see Merrill). I would much rather see them die out and the City Elves carve out their own kingdom.

[grumpymooselion]

I'm sort of hoping the situation devolves so much that the elves go from their current low on the societal scale to even lower, maybe to the extent of outright elf hunts/elf burnings. All out mass forced Elf slavery would be acceptable too. You know to the extent that you have factions out hunting even the Dalish to a fanatical extent.

Honestly anything that involves mistreating elves. I'm just not an elf fan. :3

Really, the only thing that makes the elves interesting - in the least - to me, in this setting, is that they're treated like trash and they aren't considered equals to the other races. If they get rid of the racism, or go easy on it, it'll just leave me thinking, "well I didn't like them before, but now they're pointless, I hope they all get wiped entirely out of existence now to save us from more of the usual dull elf in a fantasy setting nonsense."

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 06 mars 2013 - 06:21 .

[Melima]

Well, the Alienages need eliminated. The racism needs healed. Whether the elves WANT to be integrated with other peoples will likely be a personal choice. Whether other peoples will ALLOW the elves to be free to choose is another question, and also is subject to those individuals. Society in Thedas is now all in an uproar, and out of the chaos, hopefully, order will come. We don't want the enforced order of domination that has been going on, I don't believe, but it will be interesting to see what the Game Developers and writers will do with it. I hope the elves learn about their past, whether it is 'good' that they used to use in making themselves 'immortal' or 'evil' knowledge that they used, it will still be interesting to learn more about the details. I'm also interested in the Tevinter knowledge, the talking (living?) statue in the Circle of Magi basement, for example, and so many other things.

[Dorrieb]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

City Elves are pretty screwed. Even if an elvish homeland comes to be, odds are it'll be controlled by the Dalish who won't want a bunch of Andrasteans in their midst.

Actually it is part of the core Dalish creed to accept "flat ears" back into the fold and teach them what they've lost.  The City Elves would be welcome in any hypothetical new Elven kingdom set up by the Dalish.

I don't know. One of the things that stood out to me was that the Dalish described themselves as being descended from 'the noblest of the elves', which I take to mean that the rest of us are the riff raff. Any City Elves 'welcomed' in their happy new elven kingdom might find themselves relegated to the underclass all over again. Equality within human society seems like a better bet.

[Reznore57]

I guess it would take a lot for the alienages to be past history...
First the city elves are a bit passive about the problems , it seems like they drop the ball...I don't blame them but if they don't save themselves , nobody else will.

And they are cheap labour in human society...lots of nobility seems to have them as servant...I can't imagine the chantry helping either .
It's not that they are just elves , they're also the poorest in human society .
I don't expect humans to do anything about it ,most elves would probably need to learn how to fight , learn a job , maybe reading etc...who knows .
But it's been ages since they're in this situation ...even during a bad war time , they would be send on the front line to be butchered.

I think those guys really need an elf hero , a spark (And I hope not a BOOM Anders style) ...the situation has too much benefit for humans to see anything change.

[Fredward]

Considering the Chantry oppresses both the mages and the elves I think it's likely that a lot of Alienage elves will see the mage uprising as a chance to better their lot in life. Not to mention the Dalish would probably leap at the chance to give the Chantry a bloody nose and maybe cut out a piece of land in the process.

[Daerog]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Considering the Chantry oppresses both the mages and the elves I think it's likely that a lot of Alienage elves will see the mage uprising as a chance to better their lot in life. Not to mention the Dalish would probably leap at the chance to give the Chantry a bloody nose and maybe cut out a piece of land in the process.

The Chantry helped set up the Circles and is basically the main power in controlling the Circle, or was until now.

With the elves, they called in an Exalted March after its HQ was threatened and gave bad press to the dalish and set up alienages. They are not active in that, nor are they voicing against it, but the real oppressors of the elves are the humans in general, the nobles and governments. It's not the Chantry's fault the alienages are dumps, nor are elves forced to only live in alienages by any religious or national law that I know of at this time, but only by the prejudices and apathy of those in power. Kind of misdirected aggression if the only target for city elf ire is the Chantry, which is probably the only organization discouraging nobles from kicking out all the elves in their town so they don't have to bother dealing with an alienage.

Anyway, to answer the question, times of social/political chaos always bring opportunities for others to rise up (or fall). When the Black Death hit Europe, it created a great need for skilled laborers which allowed many people to rise, and some of the higher ups to fall. Skilled laborers may be needed for reconstruction, mercenaries for security and combat during the troubled times, and traveling merchants are all opportunities for elves, surface dwarves, or poor humans.

[Fredward]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
With the elves, they called in an Exalted March after its HQ was threatened and gave bad press to the dalish and set up alienages. They are not active in that, nor are they voicing against it, but the real oppressors of the elves are the humans in general, the nobles and governments. It's not the Chantry's fault the alienages are dumps, nor are elves forced to only live in alienages by any religious or national law that I know of at this time, but only by the prejudices and apathy of those in power. Kind of misdirected aggression if the only target for city elf ire is the Chantry, which is probably the only organization discouraging nobles from kicking out all the elves in their town so they don't have to bother dealing with an alienage.

Does the Chantry allow elves to join their clergy? I know elves are sometimes (rarely) allowed to join the templars but I don't know about the clergy. If they aren't then the Chantry is actively particpating in the discrimination. Furthermore do you really think the Chantry's intent when they crushed the Dales was to allow the elves, with their divisive beliefs, to gain social status equal to that of humans? It would be totally counterintuitive. Even furthermore it really doesn't matter if their anger is misplaced, the mages will be rising up against the Chantry, which does if only by negligence/apathy, maintain the status quo that exposes elves to all kinds of atrocity and poverty. Point is that the elves are much more likely to support the mages in this fight. Especially if the Dalish decide to capitalize on the chaos.

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This aloofness was hard for diplomatic relations, but the complete lack of any help by the Elves in the Second Blight (for instance, the razing of the town of Mintharlas [sp?] by the Darkspawn while the Daliah army stood by and watched, doing nothing)

Montsimmard.

However, look at it from a military perspective instead.

TEWR wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

Yeah the Dales were so friendly. Tell that to the countless of people in Montsimmard the darkspawn killed while the elven army watched nearby or the thousands of innocent civilians they killed and stole their belongings in Orlais.

To the first, as far as I know aside from the wiki's statement there's never been anything to support that. Even so, I wouldn't take that as being indicative that they didn't care, because anyone -- even an Elven supremacist -- would be able to see that the Darkspawn require everyone working together.

Second, I've posited in the past that they foolishly -- but understandably -- decided when the Blight began to debate on the matter for years like their ancestors did regarding whatever was a topic of interest before Tevinter crushed them, since the Elves of the Dales desired to rebuild all aspects of their lost culture. And that when they did decide to help, they were a bit late to the party and Montsimmard looked to be hopeless.

You can't really blame a group of people (or a general) for not wasting soldiers if a battle appears unwinnable. Even if it wasn't unwinnable, if it appeared such then it's justifiable for them to not join in.

Third, we at least have the Tale of Iloren showing us that some parts of the Elven community of the Dales did indeed fight the Darkspawn of the Second Blight. Though those elements that fought it were in places far-flung from the Dales nation itself.

I'm finding it hard to really believe the Elves of the Dales wouldn't have fought the Darkspawn, honestly. Hell, most of Thedas likes to believe that Andraste didn't fight with an army of barbarians and Elves at her beck and call -- the latter due to the Canticle of Shartan being removed from the canon Chant of Light -- so I wouldn't be surprised if people decided to just say "They didn't help".

I mean, who knows how much Orlais rewrote history to make the Elves look bad?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 mars 2013 - 08:14 .

[TEWR]

Dorrieb wrote...

I don't know. One of the things that stood out to me was that the Dalish described themselves as being descended from 'the noblest of the elves', which I take to mean that the rest of us are the riff raff.

They mean that literally. The Dales as a nation was ruled by a fairly large council of Mages and the clans are descended from those noble lineages. The Keepers in particular draw their bloodline back to people that were among said council.

They don't mean to say that in the sense of "We're better then you". They just say "We're the noble Elves" in a factual sense. They are nobility, in a sense. 

Any City Elves 'welcomed' in their happy new elven kingdom might find themselves relegated to the underclass all over again. Equality within human society seems like a better bet.

Except we see how City Elves like Lanaya and Pol ascend to rather prestigious/normal ranks within the clan. Lanaya's a First and Pol was a hunter.

Then there's Feynriel, a half-elf/half-human in bloodline, who was trained personally by the Keeper. And then there's also Aneirin. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 mars 2013 - 08:23 .

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

And no, Dalish living longer than City Elves is not proof because I imagine a wandering nomadic band would be more fit and better fed than a city slum dweller.

Zathrian lived for centuries. People said it was unusual, but not unique; ipso facto, there've been other Dalish who've lived for centuries.

Master Ilen's father, for instance, fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Dales fell -- and that happened two to three centuries before Calenhad united Ferelden together.

[KingsTiger]

On the note of elven immortality, I think that that's probably just a myth. It might have been true that ancient elves had longer life spans (unsurprising, considering the living conditions of Dragon Age elves) but "the quickening" just sounds too... convenient, like it was deliberately made up to (further, they certainly had reason) justify anti-human sentiment amongst the elven population. Hell, it might have been a cruel bit of trolling by some Tevinter magister. "Not feeling bad enough about being a slave? Guess what, your ancestors used to be immortal till we showed up!" A little bit like that guy who invented kilts, really. If properly spread, it could also act as a control mechanism. A group of elven rebels living in the wild is easier to find than a group of elven rebels hiding amongst the slave population.

[Heimdall]

I'm inclined to believe elven immortality may have been real, though it may have been the result of a magic ritual rather than being an innate trait. I also don't buy that mere human presence is responsible for their reduced lifespans.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 08 mars 2013 - 02:37 .

[dragonflight288]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I'm inclined to believe elven immortality may have been real, though it may have been the result of a magic ritual rather than being an innate trait. I also don't buy that mere human presence is responsible for their reduced lifespans.

Well, as Etheral pointed out that Ilen's father fought a battle that took place 2-300 years before Calenhad united Ferelden and died of natural causes, I'm inclined to think the Dalish immortality is kind of real, without the magic.

I can't say for sure if it's true or not, but it's just my personal inclination.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Well, as Etheral pointed out that Ilen's father fought a battle that took place 2-300 years before Calenhad united Ferelden and died of natural causes, I'm inclined to think the Dalish immortality is kind of real, without the magic.

I can't say for sure if it's true or not, but it's just my personal inclination.

Any kind of immortality we've seen in the franchise was due to dark rituals. I think it's more likely the elves of the Dales simply rediscovered the secrets of Arlathan if they existed.
That could have even been the reason for the attack on Red Crossing. Human sacrifices.