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[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Well, as Etheral pointed out that Ilen's father fought a battle that took place 2-300 years before Calenhad united Ferelden and died of natural causes, I'm inclined to think the Dalish immortality is kind of real, without the magic.

I can't say for sure if it's true or not, but it's just my personal inclination.

Any kind of immortality we've seen in the franchise was due to dark rituals. I think it's more likely the elves of the Dales simply rediscovered the secrets of Arlathan if they existed.
That could have even been the reason for the attack on Red Crossing. Human sacrifices.

So you're confirming that the Guardian was the subject of a dark ritual, then? Interesting.

[MisterJB]

Changing the subject are we? Why not defend the elves rather than try to attack Andraste?
Well, I'll entertain you.

I don't think he is being kept alive by the Maker, no. His ability to know everyone's past is most likely an advanced form of mind reading which is only possible through blood magic.
Likewise, the Ash Wraiths are hardly an earthly creation.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Changing the subject are we? Why not defend the elves rather than try to attack Andraste?
Well, I'll entertain you.

I don't think he is being kept alive by the Maker, no. His ability to know everyone's past is most likely an advanced form of mind reading which is only possible through blood magic.
Likewise, the Ash Wraiths are hardly an earthly creation.

I'm not attacking Andraste, as I don't consider blood magic to be evil. I only mention this because you said "every form of immortality." Also, none of the blood magic life-extending spells we've seen have required human sacrifice (Avernus was killing people to find a way to strike back at the demons, not to extend his own life, which lasted long after all the other Wardens were dead). Additionally, your hypothesis fails to take uthenera into account, which we actually have proof of from the shadowy, demon-crazed elves who attack on Sundermount.

[MisterJB]

You knew I'd see it as attacking Andraste. Don't be disingenuous.
It's merely a possibility. What is fact is that we have not seen any natural creature blessed with naturally occuring immortality. Much less one removed just because people of other race are nearby.
Even the Guardian was either kept alive through some ritual, close proximity to a mountain of lyrium or because God wills it so. He certainly wasn't born immortal and continues to be so because there are no elves nearby.

Spirits. We've seen lots of spirits. We've seen human spirits, elven spirits, even dwarven spirits in the Dead Trenches. It's not an indication of the immortality of the body but rather of the soul.

[Xilizhra]

You knew I'd see it as attacking Andraste. Don't be disingenuous.

You also knew that I have no opposition to blood magic and wouldn't be using it as an attack.

It's merely a possibility. What is fact is that we have not seen any natural creature blessed with naturally occuring immortality. Much less one removed just because people of other race are nearby.

We've seen the Old Gods, who certainly seem to be physical beings. Perhaps partially spirit, but perhaps the elves used to be as well.

Even the Guardian was either kept alive through some ritual, close proximity to a mountain of lyrium or because God wills it so. He certainly wasn't born immortal and continues to be so because there are no elves nearby.

And... his mechanics work differently?

Spirits. We've seen lots of spirits. We've seen human spirits, elven spirits, even dwarven spirits in the Dead Trenches. It's not an indication of the immortality of the body but rather of the soul.

Actually, ghosts don't exist. The spirits we see in DAO just take on human or dwarven forms, which we see both Valor and Justice do in the Fade, and a few times we see demons use the humanoid spirit shape as a disguise (such as in the Brecilian Forest ruins, where the supposed elven woman turns into a shade). The shadow elves, instead of just poofing out of existence when falling like the spirits you mentioned prior do, die and leave corpses.

[Fiacre]

If the elven woman (and child) are just normal demons in disguise, why screech about something in elvish? I always had the impression that she was an elf at some point, but got corrupted.

And there are the dwarves (and Darkspawn) in Kal'Hirol. Even if you think that the restless/angry/whatever else they were called spirits in Ortan Thaig/the Dead Trenches/the Anvil of the Void area were just demons in disguise, the Kal'Hirol apparitions don't act like demons at all, rather than...some sort of imprint of those who fought there.

And then there's the spirits in Bownammar, who, iirc, only hang around and pray until you take the key (or is it the helmet? I've always taken everything) from the altar, at which point they suddenly start attacking you.

Modifié par Fiacre, 08 mars 2013 - 04:23 .

[Xilizhra]

If the elven woman (and child) are just normal demons in disguise, why screech about something in elvish? I always had the impression that she was an elf at some point, but got corrupted.

Those tend to be just imprints left by a torn Veil; perhaps a demon was hiding behind one. Either way, I don't think humans or elves can become demons.

And there are the dwarves (and Darkspawn) in Kal'Hirol. Even if you think that the restless/angry/whatever else they were called spirits in Ortan Thaig/the Dead Trenches/the Anvil of the Void area were just demons in disguise, the Kal'Hirol apparitions don't act like demons at all, rather than...some sort of imprint of those who fought there.

And then there's the spirits in Bownammar, who, iirc, only hang around and pray until you take the key (or is it the helmet? I've always taken everything) from the altar, at which point they suddenly start attacking you.

They don't have to be demons in disguise, just spirits that are hostile for some reason or another. Although, given their lack of connection to the Fade, it's possible that the dwarf spirits are actually linked to the Stone and their afterlives/imprints work differently; if they do work differently, however, then they have nothing to do with the shadow elves.

[azarhal]

KingsTiger wrote...

On the note of elven immortality, I think that that's probably just a myth. It might have been true that ancient elves had longer life spans (unsurprising, considering the living conditions of Dragon Age elves) but "the quickening" just sounds too... convenient, like it was deliberately made up to (further, they certainly had reason) justify anti-human sentiment amongst the elven population. Hell, it might have been a cruel bit of trolling by some Tevinter magister. "Not feeling bad enough about being a slave? Guess what, your ancestors used to be immortal till we showed up!" A little bit like that guy who invented kilts, really. If properly spread, it could also act as a control mechanism. A group of elven rebels living in the wild is easier to find than a group of elven rebels hiding amongst the slave population.

I believe that elves were immortals. You have to keep in mind that elves claims everyone had the gift (magic). Both Sandal in DAII and Yavana in Silent Grove support this as well. It's not hard to believe that there are magic that stop/slow body aging. Actually, we already know a few: link one self to a spirit, Avernus's ritual and the taint (see Corypheus). There are probably more. Arriving Humans settlers didn't know those rituals (unclear if they all had magic, but we have hints that even dwarves did).

The way I see it, Elves lost their immortality, because they lost access to magic. What caused the lost of magic: dragon being brought to extinction according to Yavana. In other words, humans killed dragons, less magic was in the world, less elves could stop their body aging, elves started to die sooner, elves lost their immortality.

But Alienages sure aren't helping the life expectancy of Elves now...

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
You also knew that I have no opposition to blood magic and wouldn't be using it as an attack.

But you knew I would see it as such and meant for me to interpret it as such.
Associating followers of Andraste with dark rituals is meant as a slight, and you know it.

We've seen the Old Gods, who certainly seem to be physical beings. Perhaps partially spirit, but perhaps the elves used to be as well.

According to Tevinter Lore, the Old Gods exist outside of the Maker's creation. They did not create but neither were they created. Therefore, if true, they are entirely alien to Thedas and don't need to follow its rules.
Alternatively, it's feasible dragons live longer lives than sentient creatures. Species of animals live longer than humans in real life.
Immortality that is magically reduced because the people of a race yours has warred with since their first appearance on Thedas are nearby? How unheard of and convenient.
I don't buy it, it has no basis in DA lore. It strikes me as either an excuse for prejudice and isolationism or as a magic trick which was lost after the destruction of elven culture.

And... his mechanics work differently?

What?

Actually, ghosts don't exist. The spirits we see in DAO just take on human or dwarven forms, which we see both Valor and Justice do in the Fade, and a few times we see demons use the humanoid spirit shape as a disguise (such as in the Brecilian Forest ruins, where the supposed elven woman turns into a shade). The shadow elves, instead of just poofing out of existence when falling like the spirits you mentioned prior do, die and leave corpses.

Sure they do. In the sixth issue of "The Silent Grove", Yavanna summons Claudio's soul and interrogates him. Those spirits in the Dead Trenches, orphanage and the Brecilian ruins likely were the souls of the dead. Perhaps emotional distress can lead to them becoming more demonic in shape such as what happened to the elven woman. Regardless, not all souls encountered turn into Shades.

Easily explainable. Spirits possessed the corpses of elves buried there.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 mars 2013 - 04:45 .

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, ghosts don't exist. The spirits we see in DAO just take on human or dwarven forms, which we see both Valor and Justice do in the Fade, and a few times we see demons use the humanoid spirit shape as a disguise (such as in the Brecilian Forest ruins, where the supposed elven woman turns into a shade). The shadow elves, instead of just poofing out of existence when falling like the spirits you mentioned prior do, die and leave corpses.

I think there can be extraordinary circumstances where there are ghosts, but in the fade as opposed to the "real" world. This is raised most prominently with the baroness shenanigans, but also touched upon in the circle tower with Niall. Their projection in the fade seemingly persists even if their body dies, so there are theoretical ghosts in the fade at least. I wonder if they just transition into spirits after a while though.

[Xilizhra]

But you knew I would see it as such and meant for me to interpret it as such.
Associating followers of Andraste with dark rituals is meant as a slight, and you know it.

It's only a slight if they take it as such. It's not as if the supposedly canonical attempt to starve the Imperium to death was any kinder.

According to Tevinter Lore, the Old Gods existe outside of the Maker's creation. They did not create but neither were they created. Therefore, if true, they are entirely alien to Thedas and don't need to follow its rules.
Alternatively, it's feasible dragons live longer lives than sentient creatures. Species of animals live longer than humans in real life.

The Old Gods aren't only dragons, to be sure. And as I don't believe in the Maker anyway, I see no real basis to claim that the Old Gods are inherently alien.

Immortality that is magically reduced because the people of a race yours has warred with since their first appearance on Thedas are nearby? How unheard of and convenient.

It is still heard of, as seen in the Dalish. And if you want to oversimplify it to just living conditions, Circle mage elves and the more luxury-living elven servants should also live for a century or two. Do they?

I don't buy it, it has no basis in DA lore. It strikes me as either an excuse for prejudice and isolationism or as a magic trick which was lost after the destruction of elven culture.

If it is a trick, it should be rediscovered.

Sure they do. In the sixth issue of "The Silent Grove", Yavanna summons Claudio's soul and interrogates him. Those spirits in the Dead Trenches, orphanage and the Brecilian ruins likely were the souls of the dead. Perhaps emotional distress can lead to them becoming more demonic in shape such as what happened to the elven woman. Regardless, not all souls encoutered turn into Shades.

Ghosts can be summoned back from beyond the Fade, but there's no precedent for them appearing through Veil tears of their own accord, and you've completely made up the "emotional distress" thing, especially as she's labeled as a shade instead of just an elven ghost or something.

Easily explainable. Spirits possessed the corpses of elves buried there.

This is true, but they're not shadow elves, just ordinary corpses, whom we fight quite a number of. The shadow elves are a different variety of being entirely.

[Fiacre]

Xilizhra wrote...

Those tend to be just imprints left by a torn Veil; perhaps a demon was hiding behind one. Either way, I don't think humans or elves can become demons.

Hmm, true, I don't think can either. I was thinking more of demonic influence/possession, or something similar.

They don't have to be demons in disguise, just spirits that are hostile for some reason or another. Although, given their lack of connection to the Fade, it's possible that the dwarf spirits are actually linked to the Stone and their afterlives/imprints work differently; if they do work differently, however, then they have nothing to do with the shadow elves.

I wouldn't be surprised if the dwarven ghosts have to do with the stone -- though I do think that what we see in the Deep Roads in DA:O and the apparitions of dwarves and Darkspawn we see in DAA are two different phenomena.

I'd also agree that the Shadow Elves are soemthing different, but I don't think we can say with certainty that there are no ghost equivalents in Thedas. It is certainly interesting if they do leave behind bodies -- I've admittedly never paid enough attention to that, I'll have to that when I play again. (As far as evidence for Uthenera goes, the Brecilian Ruins did show us that a ritual akin to it existed, even if the supposed elven spirits were just demons in disguise, tthere is both the stonetablet, the room with the sarcophagi and the ritual that one needs to perform to enter it (as well as the descriptions while oyu do that, "You feel a sense of rightness and approval", for example)).

Modifié par Fiacre, 08 mars 2013 - 05:02 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's only a slight if they take it as such. It's not as if the supposedly canonical attempt to starve the Imperium to death was any kinder.

From a certain point of view.

The Old Gods aren't only dragons, to be sure. And as I don't believe in the Maker anyway, I see no real basis to claim that the Old Gods are inherently alien.

Other than them exhibiting unique abilities and the Taint that is irrevocably linked to them being described as "alien" even to creature of the Fade?
Regardless, they aren't related to elves at all.

It is still heard of, as seen in the Dalish. And if you want to oversimplify it to just living conditions, Circle mage elves and the more luxury-living elven servants should also live for a century or two. Do they?

First, you would have to prove that dalish elves live for two centuries and I won't accept the word "unusual" as evidence.
And then, you would have to prove that this longevity is not magically induced such as with Zathrian.

The only strong case I see is Ilen's father and it's entirely possible his was magically induced during the times of the Dales.

If it is a trick, it should be rediscovered.

That depends entirely just on what manner of "trick" it is.

Ghosts can be summoned back from beyond the Fade, but there's no precedent for them appearing through Veil tears of their own accord, and you've completely made up the "emotional distress" thing, especially as she's labeled as a shade instead of just an elven ghost or something.

We have seen ghosts of both elves and humans in the orphanage who lingered in the physical world after their deaths and who never turned into a shade. Also, the spirits of the Legion in the Dead Trenches exhibited none of the usual behavior of demons, leaving the Warden alone unless s/he messed with the helmet.
This proves that spirits can remain on Thedas of their own accord in special circunstances.
If the elven woman was just a demon in disguise, what was the point of all the old elvish? And if she was confused like Cole who doesn't realize he is a demon, how come she was able to transform into a Shade when she wished?

This is true, but they're not shadow elves, just ordinary corpses, whom we fight quite a number of. The shadow elves are a different variety of being entirely.

Not necessarely true. The Ancient elves guarding the Lights of Arlathan are, technically, the same as the rioters in the orphanage; spirits of the deceased; but they are still called something different by the game.
And even if it was true, it is no indication of elven immortality. Those Shadow Elves acted no different than any other demon or the elven ghosts encountered in the Brecilian ruins.

[Xilizhra]

Other than them exhibiting unique abilities and the Taint that is irrevocably linked to them being described as "alien" even to creature of the Fade?
Regardless, they aren't related to elves at all.

The taint is a darkspawn thing that just happens to be able to infect the Old Gods and turning them into ghouls.

First, you would have to prove that dalish elves live for two centuries and I won't accept the word "unusual" as evidence.

Ilen's father, who battled the Clayne in times before Calenhad united Ferelden.

And then, you would have to prove that this longevity is not magically induced such as with Zathrian.

Proving a negative is frequently impossible. Prove that it is magically induced. Also, you're ignoring my other point, about how there's no indication that Circle mage elves or certain servants of nobles live for an especially long time, despite having probably better living conditions than many Dalish.

That depends entirely just on what manner of "trick" it is.

It should be learned regardless.

We have seen ghosts of both elves and humans in the orphanage who lingered in the physical world after their deaths and who never turned into a shade. Also, the spirits of the Legion in the Dead Trenches exhibited none of the usual behavior of demons, leaving the Warden alone unless s/he messed with the helmet.

You saw spirits, you have no proof that they were ghosts. And dwarf afterlives seem to work rather differently than human and elf ones.

If the elven woman was just a demon in disguise, what was the point of all the old elvish? And if she was confused like Cole who doesn't realize he is a demon, how come she was able to transform into a Shade when she wished?

It's possible that the demon was trying to lure you into some kind of deal, but didn't know the current common language due to being in the ruins for so long. And so attacked upon realizing you couldn't communicate.

And even if it was true, it is no indication of elven immortality. Those Shadow Elves acted no different than any other demon or the elven ghosts encountered in the Brecilian ruins.

Obviously; they've gone crazy. Merrill mentions that they "don't sleep peacefully anymore."

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The taint is a darkspawn thing that just happens to be able to infect the Old Gods and turning them into ghouls.

We have no idea what the Taint is.

Ilen's father, who battled the Clayne in times before Calenhad united Ferelden.

Don't do that: I mentioned him.
Ilen's father was, supposedly, an elf from the Dales whose longevity could have been magically induced.

Proving a negative is frequently impossible. Prove that it is magically induced.

The only instances of immortality we have ever seen in Dragon Age lore resulted from either magical means or from creatures who are dramatically different from most life forms such as the Old Gods or the demons.
Elves are, in almost everything, biologically identical to humans to the point where they can reproduce with them.
Therefore, logically, the elven immortality, if it ever existed, must have resulted from magical experiments.
It might not be irrefutible proof, but all evidence points in that direction.

Also, you're ignoring my other point, about how there's no indication that Circle mage elves or certain servants of nobles live for an especially long time, despite having probably better living conditions than many Dalish.

And why shouldn't they? But if you are expecting wealthy elves to live for two centuries, you'll be disapointed. Likewise, Dalish elves also don't live for centuries at a time.

It should be learned regardless.

No, not "regardless". For instance, if the trick requires human sacrifices, my answer is "Go home and die."

You saw spirits, you have no proof that they were ghosts. And dwarf afterlives seem to work rather differently than human and elf ones.

Spirits of dead people. That's a ghost. It's the same thing.

It's possible that the demon was trying to lure you into some kind of deal, but didn't know the current common language due to being in the ruins for so long. And so attacked upon realizing you couldn't communicate.

Why would it even stay for two millenia in that place? And what about the elven child?
And why are we even discussing this? There's plenty of spirits who don't turn into shades.

Obviously; they've gone crazy. Merrill mentions that they "don't sleep peacefully anymore."

Lots of things go crazy. Not just immortal elves who've wake up from a thousand year nap.

[Xilizhra]

The only instances of immortality we have ever seen in Dragon Age lore resulted from either magical means or from creatures who are dramatically different from most life forms such as the Old Gods or the demons.
Elves are, in almost everything, biologically identical to humans to the point where they can reproduce with them.
Therefore, logically, the elven immortality, if it ever existed, must have resulted from magical experiments.
It might not be irrefutible proof, but all evidence points in that direction.

You're basing this on biological arguments that may not have a place in Dragon Age, and only the evidence that you personally throw around leads to that conclusion. If you don't want to believe my own evidence, you can avoid doing so, but don't act as though you have any proof of your own assertions.

And why shouldn't they? But if you are expecting wealthy elves to live for two centuries, you'll be disapointed. Likewise, Dalish elves also don't live for centuries at a time.

Living significantly longer than humans, then. Provide proof for that, if you want to make the living condition argument.

Spirits of dead people. That's a ghost. It's the same thing.

Spirits that only looked like humans.

Why would it even stay for two millenia in that place? And what about the elven child?

The elven child is either a lure or a nonsapient Fade imprint of a past atrocity. And many demons stay in one place for thousands of years. Since that room was sealed off, perhaps that bound it there.

And why are we even discussing this? There's plenty of spirits who don't turn into shades.

Not all hostile spirits are demons. Otherwise, you wouldn't have spirit wolves try to eat you in the mage origin.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
You're basing this on biological arguments that may not have a place in Dragon Age, and only the evidence that you personally throw around leads to that conclusion. If you don't want to believe my own evidence, you can avoid doing so, but don't act as though you have any proof of your own assertions.

No matter the universe, a dragon is different from a human therefore, claiming that dragons can live for thousands of years, it's fine. Elves on the other hand can reproduce with humans which places them in the same category of species. If you want to claim they are immortal, there better be some good evidence which there isn't.
Biology, like physics, work in fictional world in the exact same manner they work in ours unless we are specifically told otherwise.
I can also use DA's lore as a basis.
Have we seen biologically immortal creatures? No.
Have we, on the other hand, seen immortal beings? Yes.
How did they come to be so? Magic.
Were the elves immortal once? Perhaps.
Were they biologically immortal? There is no other recorded case in all of Thedas.
What about magically induced immortality? We have seen other cases.

Conclusion, it is far more logical to believe the ancient elves knew magic that extended their lifespan than that they were simply born immortal for no reason.

Living significantly longer than humans, then. Provide proof for that, if you want to make the living condition argument.

Who lives significantly longer than humans? The Dalish? They don't.
Logically, some wealthy elves would live longer than peasants. Shall I compare Denerim's palace to a hovel? Make comments about higiene and money to hire doctors?

Spirits that only looked like humans.

Spirits that looked like humans, acted like humans and were summoned from the corpses of humans.
Souls exist in Thedas. That is a fact.

Not all hostile spirits are demons. Otherwise, you wouldn't have spirit wolves try to eat you in the mage origin.

They were probrably just wisps. Demons who lost their power.

[Xilizhra]

No matter the universe, a dragon is different from a human therefore, claiming that dragons can live for thousands of years, it's fine. Elves on the other hand can reproduce with humans which places them in the same category of species. If you want to claim they are immortal, there better be some good evidence which there isn't.

Evidence exists that you refuse to accept.

Conclusion, it is far more logical to believe the ancient elves knew magic that extended their lifespan than that they were simply born immortal for no reason.

Who's to say they weren't born into magic that allowed for their immortality, magical but involuntary? All of them used to be mages, after all.

Who lives significantly longer than humans? The Dalish? They don't.

They do. Even ones who do die eventually.

Spirits that looked like humans, acted like humans and were summoned from the corpses of humans.

Acted like humans? They simply attack. Also, while they looked like humans, the orphanage's casualties were all elves.

They were probrably just wisps. Demons who lost their power.

You see actual wisps in the same area, who are completely different beings and have a different codex entry. This is utterly baseless.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Evidence exists that you refuse to accept.

"Evidence" that I refuted, you mean.

Who's to say they weren't born into magic that allowed for their immortality, magical but involuntary? All of them used to be mages, after all.

The fact that there are no other recorded cases of such a thing ever; that mages are being born in the Dragon Age without such a thing; that magic reacts in no specific manner for humans alone.
That is a baseless claim.

They do. Even ones who do die eventually.

Where is that stated?

Acted like humans? They simply attack. Also, while they looked like humans, the orphanage's casualties were all elves.

I'm not just talking about those in the orphanage. We see the spirits of the dead in many places beyond the Alienage; some of which talked and even identified themselves with their names, even in the orphanage.
Also, it's entirely possible the elves killed humans. They were the ones rioting, after all.

You see actual wisps in the same area, who are completely different beings and have a different codex entry. This is utterly baseless.

A Rage demon looks completely different from a Pride but it's still a demon.  Likewise, there can be different stages and types of wisps.

[Xilizhra]

"Evidence" that I refuted, you mean.

In your own opinion. I believe it stands better than your own still.

The fact that there are no other recorded cases of such a thing ever; that mages are being born in the Dragon Age without such a thing; that magic reacts in no specific manner for humans alone.

We don't have access to the records of kossith or whatever other race lives in their homeland, human origins are unknown, and even dwarves have more muddled memories than they thought. There are no records at all of that sort of thing elsewhere, not records that would contradict it. Also, magic's been weakening worldwide as of late, but now seems to be returning.

Where is that stated?

Lanaya.

I'm not just talking about those in the orphanage. We see the spirits of the dead in many places beyond the Alienage; some of which talked and even identified themselves with their names, even in the orphanage.

Dwarf ones have some issues with the Stone, so I can't say much about those. However, beyond that, I only really recall the orphanage ones, and Veil tears can leave nonsapient imprints of past actions that sort of look like ghosts, but aren't.

Also, it's entirely possible the elves killed humans. They were the ones rioting, after all.

The rampaging and rioting spirits are actually human-subtyped, as can be seen if you have the Survival skill. It seems more likely that they're spirits imitating some of the actions performed there (though more likely the human-conducted slaughter).

A Rage demon looks completely different from a Pride but it's still a demon. Likewise, there can be different stages and types of wisps.

And you base the spirit wolf thing on what, exactly?

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
In your own opinion. I believe it stands better than your own still.

But you haven't even tried to refute it. Just said: "Mine's better."

We don't have access to the records of kossith or whatever other race lives in their homeland, human origins are unknown, and even dwarves have more muddled memories than they thought. There are no records at all of that sort of thing elsewhere, not records that would contradict it. Also, magic's been weakening worldwide as of late, but now seems to be returning.

We have two millenia of the recorded history of an entire continent. Times when magic was much stronger than today and there's still nothing even similar to what the elves claim they were.

Lanaya.

Be more specific.

Dwarf ones have some issues with the Stone, so I can't say much about those. However, beyond that, I only really recall the orphanage ones, and Veil tears can leave nonsapient imprints of past actions that sort of look like ghosts, but aren't.

Orphanage, Brecilian Forest, Dead Treanches, Claudio, Orthan Thaig, Gauntlet, possessed girl in Awakening and probrably a few more if I bothered to search for them.
Nonsapient imprints like Malcolm Hawke talking to himself in "Legacy" is one thing. These ghosts activelly either attack you or talk to you.
We know for a fact sentient beings have souls in Thedas. Therefore, it's not a far fetched notion that some would be able to stay behind in places where the Veil is not strong.

The rampaging and rioting spirits are actually human-subtyped, as can be seen if you have the Survival skill. It seems more likely that they're spirits imitating some of the actions performed there (though more likely the human-conducted slaughter).

Elves started the riot. It's far more likely they would have killed a few humans whose souls stayed behind.
You can believe it was in self-defense if you wish.

And you base the spirit wolf thing on what, exactly?

The fact they don't fit into any other category of creature from the Fade.

[Xilizhra]

But you haven't even tried to refute it. Just said: "Mine's better."

I've been trying to refute it this whole time.

We have two millenia of the recorded history of an entire continent. Times when magic was much stronger than today and there's still nothing even similar to what the elves claim they were.

Elves are one of two sapient races actually native to the continent, and dwarves seem to have a huge blank spot in their racial memory if the primeval thaig is any indication. You don't have a significant number of counterexamples.

Be more specific.

She mentions that the Dalish live long lives. Since the Quickening made elves age as humans do, we can infer that the original effects changed elven lifespan to the human one, in the elven mindset if nothing else. Coming from that, Dalish elves living comparatively long lives would make them live longer than the Quickened elf lifespan, and thus longer than humans.

Orphanage, Brecilian Forest, Dead Treanches, Claudio, Orthan Thaig, Gauntlet, possessed girl in Awakening and probrably a few more if I bothered to search for them.

Claudio is outright summoned, the Brecilian Forest has a grand total of one actual spirit who turns out to really be a demon, two of those are dwarves who have different mechanics, I see no indication that the things in the Gauntlet are actually the spirits of the departed there, and I believe that girl is possessed by a demon.

Nonsapient imprints like Malcolm Hawke talking to himself in "Legacy" is one thing. These ghosts activelly either attack you or talk to you.

The running boy in the ruins and the chanting and screaming ones in the orphanage are the imprints; none of them does either.

We know for a fact sentient beings have souls in Thedas. Therefore, it's not a far fetched notion that some would be able to stay behind in places where the Veil is not strong.

We do know that they can't do things spirits can, like possess things.

Elves started the riot. It's far more likely they would have killed a few humans whose souls stayed behind.
You can believe it was in self-defense if you wish.

The riot was because of the lockdown imposed when some elves tried to defend themselves from Vaughan's predations, and then Howe's purge showed up. Also, the only humans in the orphanage would have been his own soldiers.

The fact they don't fit into any other category of creature from the Fade.

We see mice and the like in the Fade, do we not? Fade spirits frequently take their shapes from earthly beings.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
Elves are one of two sapient races actually native to the continent, and dwarves seem to have a huge blank spot in their racial memory if the primeval thaig is any indication. You don't have a significant number of counterexamples.[/quote]
How about every single living thing in Thedas? The only forms of immortality come from magic. That's a fact.

You don't think it's very convenient that this "Quickening" works only with the race elves have always warred with?

[quote]
She mentions that the Dalish live long lives. Since the Quickening made elves age as humans do, we can infer that the original effects changed elven lifespan to the human one, in the elven mindset if nothing else. Coming from that, Dalish elves living comparatively long lives would make them live longer than the Quickened elf lifespan, and thus longer than humans.[/quote]
A fair interpretation but that's still all that it is. She could be comparing their lifespans wtih that of "flat ears" who live in squalor and would thus die much sooner.
As far as we know, she is talking about a couple of decades.

[quote]Claudio is outright summoned,[/quote]
Because his spirit lingered. That is specifically said by Yavanna.

[quote]the Brecilian Forest has a grand total of one actual spirit who turns out to really be a demon,[/quote]
Debatable but we've been over it.

[quote]two of those are dwarves who have different mechanics, [/quote]
One, actually. I was referring to the Ancient Elven Guardians in Orthon Thaig
Dwarves have different beliefs, which is not evidence of different afterlives.
Regardless, that's irrelevant. The Dead Trenches show that even dwarves have souls which is what mattered regarding the possibility of the Shadow Elves simply being spirits.

[quote]I see no indication that the things in the Gauntlet are actually the spirits of the departed there,[/quote]
They know things only their living selves could have known and they exhibit different personalities like living beings do. It's entirely possible.

[quote]I believe that girl is possessed by a demon.[/quote]
Yes but after you kill the demon, her real self thanks you.

[quote]
The running boy in the ruins and the chanting and screaming ones in the orphanage are the imprints; none of them does either.[/quote]
They can't be imprints. That child in the orphanage sings "Sir Whillem, I'm dying in pain."
A child wouldn't be singing while their home is on fire and men with swords are everywhere, much less if they really are dying in pain.

[quote]
We do know that they can't do things spirits can, like possess things.[/quote]
Most likely. So?

[quote]
The riot was because of the lockdown imposed when some elves tried to defend themselves from Vaughan's predations, and then Howe's purge showed up. Also, the only humans in the orphanage would have been his own soldiers.[/quote]
Or just angry men. Most of the rioters are not wearing armor. They could have been killed.

[quote]
We see mice and the like in the Fade, do we not? Fade spirits frequently take their shapes from earthly beings.[/quote]
We see a demon disguising as mice. Besides, what kind of spirit would just attack a dreamer?
Wisps, who used to be demons, have been known to do so, however.

[Xilizhra]

How about every single living thing in Thedas? The only forms of immortality come from magic. That's a fact.

You don't think it's very convenient that this "Quickening" works only with the race elves have always warred with?

Humans came long before qunari did. Qunari might activate it too. Dwarves, they just didn't share an environment with.

A fair interpretation but that's still all that it is. She could be comparing their lifespans wtih that of "flat ears" who live in squalor and would thus die much sooner.
As far as we know, she is talking about a couple of decades.

Possible, but it's a far more tortuous interpretation.

One, actually. I was referring to the Ancient Elven Guardians in Orthon Thaig
Dwarves have different beliefs, which is not evidence of different afterlives.
Regardless, that's irrelevant. The Dead Trenches show that even dwarves have souls which is what mattered regarding the possibility of the Shadow Elves simply being spirits.

Despite, again, having physical bodies that we can see instead of the glowy spirit outline beings. Also, all the spirits in Ortan Thaig are dwarves.

Yes but after you kill the demon, her real self thanks you.

Well, yeah, her spirit is stuck in that body.

Because his spirit lingered. That is specifically said by Yavanna.

I've not read the comic and can't confirm it.

They can't be imprints. That child in the orphanage sings "Sir Whillem, I'm dying in pain."
A child wouldn't be singing while their home is on fire and men with swords are everywhere, much less if they really are dying in pain.

It's exceedingly unlikely that an actual child ghost would be doing so either, so I'm going to put this down to a demon mocking them. Similar to the one who laughs after ending that rhyme with "Eight, nine, and now you die!"

Or just angry men. Most of the rioters are not wearing armor. They could have been killed.

They're spirits, they don't correspond to any human bodies. Which was my point, really.

We see a demon disguising as mice. Besides, what kind of spirit would just attack a dreamer?

The spirit of a predator. Also, we see others who've simply become mice.

Wisps, who used to be demons, have been known to do so, however.

Wisps (by the way, not all of them are demons, Rhys summons a friendly one in Asunder) don't have the intelligence or volition to do so.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Humans came long before qunari did. Qunari might activate it too. Dwarves, they just didn't share an environment with.

"Might; ifs". It stills sounds to me like a convenient excuse to justify prejudiced views.

Despite, again, having physical bodies that we can see instead of the glowy spirit outline beings

Their bodies are buried there. They could have just possessed them.

all the spirits in Ortan Thaig are dwarves.

You're right. I meant Cadash Thaig.

Well, yeah, her spirit is stuck in that body.

There are no bodies in the Fade. The one time someone did that, there was the whole Darkspawn thing.

I've not read the comic and can't confirm it.

I can post the page if you disbelieve me so.

It's exceedingly unlikely that an actual child ghost would be doing so either, so I'm going to put this down to a demon mocking them. Similar to the one who laughs after ending that rhyme with "Eight, nine, and now you die!"

Or that's simply the ghost of a child whose violent death corrupted.

They're spirits, they don't correspond to any human bodies. Which was my point, really.

They're ghosts.

The spirit of a predator. Also, we see others who've simply become mice.

There are no predators other than demons in the Fade. It's a realm composed by simplistic creatures who imitate human emotions, not an ecosystem.

Wisps (by the way, not all of them are demons, Rhys summons a friendly one in Asunder) don't have the intelligence or volition to do so.

While it's true there are friendly wisps, they are also the very first thing the Magi Warden must fight. They are quite capable of attacking.