98 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Their bodies are buried there. They could have just possessed them.

Which souls of the dead can't do. It's explicitly stated that no possessed corpse is actually a true restless undead being.

You're right. I meant Cadash Thaig.

I'll need to replay Witch Hunt.

There are no bodies in the Fade. The one time someone did that, there was the whole Darkspawn thing.

It's like with Connor and Feynriel, where we can see themselves in the Fade as well as the demons.

I can post the page if you disbelieve me so.

Please do.

Or that's simply the ghost of a child whose violent death corrupted.

I find this far less likely.

They're ghosts.

No they're not.

There are no predators other than demons in the Fade. It's a realm composed by simplistic creatures who imitate human emotions, not an ecosystem.

The emotions of all sapient beings, not just humans. In any case, they can be fragments of human reactions to being attacked by wolves and other predators; there are no fear demons, after all.

While it's true there are friendly wisps, they are also the very first thing the Magi Warden must fight. They are quite capable of attacking.

I doubt they're capable of shapeshifting into wolves.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Which souls of the dead can't do. It's explicitly stated that no possessed corpse is actually a true restless undead being.

It most certainly is not an immortal elf who clawed his way from the earth, started farting shadows for no reason and it's attacking also for no reason.

Please do.

Well, I would but I don't seem to be able to copy the page from Dark Horse Digital.
Still, it's the truth. Yavana says "His spirit lingers in the Fade." Believe it if you wish.

The emotions of all sapient beings, not just humans.

Animals don't have emotions.

there are no fear demons, after all.

There actually are. Mr.Gaider said so himself, we just haven't seen one.

I doubt they're capable of shapeshifting into wolves.

It could be a stage of devolving into the orb form.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 mars 2013 - 08:54 .

[dragonflight288]

The emotions of all sapient beings, not just humans. In any case, they can be fragments of human reactions to being attacked by wolves and other predators; there are no fear demons, after all.

That we know of. lol. I think Gaider said they're introducing new demon types in Inquisition.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Those tend to be just imprints left by a torn Veil; perhaps a demon was hiding behind one. Either way, I don't think humans or elves can become demons.

The comments from both the Elven woman and child are directed at the Warden. Yavana was able to summon back the soul of an Antivan Crow/Merchant Prince in the comics.

Ghosts do exist in Thedas. Dwarven ghosts, Elven ghosts, etc.

It's possible that the demon was trying to lure you into some kind of deal, but didn't know the current common language due to being in the ruins for so long. And so attacked upon realizing you couldn't communicate.

The comments from the woman translate to essentially "Why are you in this sacred place?! No, leave! Leave now!"

See the wiki for more details.

They don't have to be demons in disguise, just spirits that are hostile for some reason or another. Although, given their lack of connection to the Fade, it's possible that the dwarf spirits are actually linked to the Stone and their afterlives/imprints work differently; if they do work differently, however, then they have nothing to do with the shadow elves.

Indeed, much of Dwarven lore and what we see suggests that the Stone is a living entity and the associated beliefs about it are true.

MisterJB wrote...

A Rage demon looks completely different from a Pride but it's still a demon.  Likewise, there can be different stages and types of wisps.

I wouldn't call them Wisps. Demons routinely take on forms of things they've seen in the mortal world, so it's possible that they're just regular Demons taking on a wolf form. That's how I imagine the fight against Darkspawn in the Fade operating under as well.

Sloth took on a bereskarn form after all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 mars 2013 - 09:48 .

[Dorrieb]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

I don't know. One of the things that stood out to me was that the Dalish described themselves as being descended from 'the noblest of the elves', which I take to mean that the rest of us are the riff raff.

They mean that literally. The Dales as a nation was ruled by a fairly large council of Mages and the clans are descended from those noble lineages. The Keepers in particular draw their bloodline back to people that were among said council.

They don't mean to say that in the sense of "We're better then you". They just say "We're the noble Elves" in a factual sense. They are nobility, in a sense.

That is how I understood it. So, as an elf who is not descended from nobility like they are, should I curtsey? Should I address them as 'm'arm' and 'me ludd'? When they restore the elven homeland to what it was all those ages ago, does that include nobles and peasants knowing their place? Because even now they show nothing but contempt for me and my people, and that's coming from a gang of wretched pikeys with delusions that their great-great-granddaddies were duchesses and lords. Imagine if they actually had their own kingdom, how respectfully would they treat us then?

Human society (in Ferelden at least) already shows the seeds of a parliamentary system. City elves would do best to fight for representation, equality under the law, and social justice for themselves and others. The Dalish would have you join the distant descendants of the nobles that your distant ancestors served as peasants, and resume the arrangement.

[TEWR]

Dorrieb wrote...

That is how I understood it. So, as an elf who is not descended from nobility like they are, should I curtsey? Should I address them as 'm'arm' and 'me ludd'? When they restore the elven homeland to what it was all those ages ago, does that include nobles and peasants knowing their place?Because even now they show nothing but contempt for me and my people, and that's coming from a gang of wretched pikeys with delusions that their great-great-granddaddies were duchesses and lords. Imagine if they actually had their own kingdom, how respectfully would they treat us then?

They don't expect anyone to stand on ceremony with them. They only show disdain for City Elves because they feel that the City Elves are too weak of will to stand up, to actually be Elven. It has nothing to do with lineage, but rather mentality towards that of the people that have all but enslaved you once more.

And by and large, the City Elves are more weak then strong.

And as an aside, that mentality isn't restricted to the Dalish. The City Elves hold the same outlook towards any Elf that leaves the Alienage, saying they're "forsaking who they are".

The Dalish will accept any City Elf that returns to them and those Elves are not required nor forced into subservient roles. City Elves are not tasked with roles like "pisspot cleaner" or "wiper of the king's arse". They are trained in the ways of the Elves and are able to actually earn legitimate positions.

Now granted, the Dalish attitude towards City Elves isn't very nice, but it's not out of some "We're noble and you're just peasants" outlook. It's more along the lines of "We're descended from nobility and retain who we are and fight to remember our past, while you have chosen to forsake who you are."

Even so, Dalish like Velanna help City Elves to remember who they are. 

And let us not forget that the Dalish believe all Elves had the gift of magic in the time of Arlathan, something that was celebrated amongst the People.

EDIT: And for all you know your Elf is descended from nobility, though the Dalish might not know that considering after the Fall of the Dales a lot of information was once again lost. Given that the dagger Fang was wielded in the battles during the Exalted March of the Dales and was passed down to Adaia before it was given to you, the Tabris line might just be nobility -- or at least descendants of prominent soldiers.

The Dalish would have you join the distant descendants of the nobles that your distant ancestors served as peasants, and resume the arrangement.

Pol and Lanaya beg to differ.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mars 2013 - 05:27 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Animals don't have emotions.

I've never once believed that. I've seen animals display sorrow and joy and other emotions.

MisterJB wrote...
How about every single living thing in Thedas? The only forms of immortality come from magic. That's a fact.

You don't think it's very convenient that this "Quickening" works only with the race elves have always warred with?

I think there's a fair bit of evidence to point to the Tevinter Imperium having something to do with the Quickening effect, if we were to take the capability of the Arcane Warriors of old -- of which the Ancient Elves of Arlathan had in droves (Enasalin) -- at being able to live alongside humans as showcasing that Elves could live safely alongside humans without fear of death.

I'd wager the Imperium's blood magic or a specific use of it placed some sort of curse upon the Elves. After all, DG said that half-Elves are human because of a magical curse -- though he never said who was responsible, but Tevinter seems likely -- so I wouldn't put it past the Imperium to have done another type of curse that rendered Elves mortal.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mars 2013 - 05:14 .

[Fredward]

Filament wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Animals don't have emotions.

That's quite a statement to just throw out there like it's some kind of proven truth.

Yeah, 'specially since it's not true.

[Dorrieb]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They don't expect anyone to stand on ceremony with them. They only show disdain for City Elves because they feel that the City Elves are too weak of will to stand up, to actually be Elven...

...Pol and Lanaya beg to differ.

You're missing the point. For whatever reason, the Dalish believe themselves to be superior to the City Elves. That is not a promising basis for a society with an equal distribution of power. (And by the way, Lanaya is a special case, and did you ever see Pol wield a vote?) It is precisely that 'elvier-than-thou' attitude that makes them so intolerant, and then you find out it's related to their association with a 'higher' social caste, oh joy. As for 'weak of will', is Shianni weak of will? Am I? I'll give them weak of will.

The only way to achieve social justice is by abolishing social and political structures that establish castes, and replace them with new structures based on equality and basic rights. That is the opposite of what the Dalish want to do: they want to re-establish an ancient state ruled by social and political structures that are already outmoded even by the inadequate standards of the present day. Or do you think the Dalish intend to abolish the ruling class, write a bill of rights into law, and organise a syndicalised system of economic production?

I think it's better to be the agents of social change in human society, where some progress at least is being made, than to go back to the social structures of several centuries ago. It doesn't matter whether your masters are human or elves, or whether they are cruel masters or kind masters. The only answer is to have NO masters at all.

[Daerog]

Dorrieb wrote...

You're missing the point. For whatever reason, the Dalish believe themselves to be superior to the City Elves. That is not a promising basis for a society with an equal distribution of power. (And by the way, Lanaya is a special case, and did you ever see Pol wield a vote?) It is precisely that 'elvier-than-thou' attitude that makes them so intolerant, and then you find out it's related to their association with a 'higher' social caste, oh joy. As for 'weak of will', is Shianni weak of will? Am I? I'll give them weak of will.

The only way to achieve social justice is by abolishing social and political structures that establish castes, and replace them with new structures based on equality and basic rights. That is the opposite of what the Dalish want to do: they want to re-establish an ancient state ruled by social and political structures that are already outmoded even by the inadequate standards of the present day. Or do you think the Dalish intend to abolish the ruling class, write a bill of rights into law, and organise a syndicalised system of economic production?

I think it's better to be the agents of social change in human society, where some progress at least is being made, than to go back to the social structures of several centuries ago. It doesn't matter whether your masters are human or elves, or whether they are cruel masters or kind masters. The only answer is to have NO masters at all.

Vive la Revolution!

But honestly, the current set up for the dalish seems to be the keeper leads in all matters and preserves the culture. If the Dalish form a single nation, it may end up looking like a magocracy.

As for the no masters at all, it is a nice sentiment and harmonious anarchy sounds great, but until people stop being greedy and selfish, there will need to be law and those who enforce the law or it'll just be a free for all. Which isn't that bad, but I think most would like to go for a walk without needing to take their crossbow and daggers.

As for the topic on hand, I say forget the dalish who are just stagnating into oblivion, the city elves should just organize and find means to uproot themselves, get involved, get work done, and establish some positions of power (in crime or business, or both) and then invite the dalish to tell them what they know but not have the dalish lead or history will just repeat itself. "Good" opportunities should come up with a world war happening.

[TEWR]

Dorrieb wrote...

You're missing the point. For whatever reason, the Dalish believe themselves to be superior to the City Elves. That is not a promising basis for a society with an equal distribution of power. (And by the way, Lanaya is a special case, and did you ever see Pol wield a vote?)

A vote in what, precisely? The only people that have a say in what the clan does are the elders. They advise the Keeper -- who is also an Elder -- and the Keeper comes to a decision on where to lead the clan next.

To be an elder in the Dalish you kinda have to be old. With age comes wisdom and all that.

Pol's a hunter, trained to use a bow -- per DAO -- and the Dalish Warden plus another assure Pol that he will have a better life then he would in the Alienages.

As for 'weak of will', is Shianni weak of will? Am I? I'll give them weak of will.

*Ahem*

TEWR wrote...

And by and large, the City Elves are more weak then strong.

Emphasis mine. I never said all Elves are weak of will and even the Dalish don't seem to believe all City Elves are weak of will, but only that the vast majority of them are.

The only way to achieve social justice is by abolishing social and political structures that establish castes, and replace them with new structures based on equality and basic rights. That is the opposite of what the Dalish want to do: they want to re-establish an ancient state ruled by social and political structures that are already outmoded even by the inadequate standards of the present day. Or do you think the Dalish intend to abolish the ruling class, write a bill of rights into law, and organise a syndicalised system of economic production?

I think it's better to be the agents of social change in human society, where some progress at least is being made, than to go back to the social structures of several centuries ago. It doesn't matter whether your masters are human or elves, or whether they are cruel masters or kind masters. The only answer is to have NO masters at all.

You know absolutely nothing about the Dales as a political infrastructure other then that it was ruled by a council of Mages, of which the clans are descended from. You do not know how other Elves in the Dales lived and are putting the cart before the horse by saying they will treat other Elves badly. Given how the Dalish Warden can assure Pol that City Elves have greater lives there then they would in the Cities, I'd say they will not establish a system of castes where there's a clear divide between the Elves.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2013 - 05:34 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Given how the Dalish Warden can assure Pol that City Elves have greater lives there then they would in the Cities, I'd say they will not establish a system of castes where there's a clear divide between the Elves.

I'm sure a dwarf noble would tell a duster the same.

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I'm sure a dwarf noble would tell a duster the same.

That's not an applicable comparison. Dwarf nobles don't tell casteless or surface Dwarves that they'd have a better life inside Orzammar.

What the Dwarf nobles do in fact maintain is that if all the casteless were to venture to the surface, Orzammar would crumble because from the casteless comes the opportunity for them to redeem themselves by joining the Legion of the Dead -- the frontline defense against the Darkspawn. And so they spread around whatever they can to make casteless Dwarves fearful of going up to the surface.

So it's not "You'll have a better life here then there". It's "If they leave for a better life en masse, we're ****ed."

Not that I particularly like the mindset of traditionalist Dwarfs, mind you, but that's how they think.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2013 - 11:56 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So it's not "You'll have a better life here then there". It's "If they leave for a better life en masse, we're ****ed."

Right, and the Dalish don't have dwindling numbers and don't need new recruits. Of course they're going to tell them that life is going to be better as a Dalish, that is their core belief. I wouldn't take that to mean that they're aiming for a utopia where everyone is worth the same.

I'm merely pointing out that taking their word for it is a flawed reasoning.

[Dorrieb]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Emphasis mine. I never said all Elves are weak of will and even the Dalish don't seem to believe all City Elves are weak of will, but only that the vast majority of them are.

In the Battle of Denerim, who were the only citizens who fought back and even kept the darkspawn out of their neighbourhood? The alienage. They didn't have soldiers, they didn't have training, and they weren't even supposed to have weapons. I don't know where you get this 'weak of will' nonsense, city elves are hard as nails.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote..
You know absolutely nothing about the Dales as a political infrastructure other then that it was ruled by a council of Mages, of which the clans are descended from. You do not know how other Elves in the Dales lived and are putting the cart before the horse by saying they will treat other Elves badly. Given how the Dalish Warden can assure Pol that City Elves have greater lives there then they would in the Cities, I'd say they will not establish a system of castes where there's a clear divide between the Elves.

Herr Uhl wrote...
Right,
and the Dalish don't have dwindling numbers and don't need new
recruits. Of course they're going to tell them that life is going to be
better as a Dalish, that is their core belief. I wouldn't take that to
mean that they're aiming for a utopia where everyone is worth the same.

I'm merely pointing out that taking their word for it is a flawed reasoning.

There's your answer. Let's just say I don't trust them. They came up with the word 'flat-ears', didn't they? Is it a step up to be a 'flat-ears' instead of a 'knive-ears'?

And you're still missing the point. It isn't about whether they would treat other elves badly. They might treat them nicely. The problem is that it shouldn't be up to them either way.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 11 mars 2013 - 06:33 .

[Xilizhra]

In the Battle of Denerim, who were the only citizens who fought back and even kept the darkspawn out of their neighbourhood? The alienage. They didn't have soldiers, they didn't have training, and they weren't even supposed to have weapons. I don't know where you get this 'weak of will' nonsense, city elves are hard as nails.

Not in my playthrough (elf mage). Where did you get this? In any case, they needed me to fry the ones breaking through the gate.

There's your answer. Let's just say I don't trust them. They came up with the word 'flat-ears', didn't they? Is it a step up to be a 'flat-ears' instead of a 'knive-ears'?

Actually, city elves also use the term to describe elves who aren't sufficiently communitarian. So it's hard to say who came up with it first.

And you're still missing the point. It isn't about whether they would treat other elves badly. They might treat them nicely. The problem is that it shouldn't be up to them either way.

True, but as of now, that's a lesser priority than casting off the human power structures doing all of the damage.

[Dorrieb]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Battle of Denerim, who were the only citizens who fought back and even kept the darkspawn out of their neighbourhood? The alienage. They didn't have soldiers, they didn't have training, and they weren't even supposed to have weapons. I don't know where you get this 'weak of will' nonsense, city elves are hard as nails.

Not in my playthrough (elf mage). Where did you get this? In any case, they needed me to fry the ones breaking through the gate.

I guess you missed it, not being an alienage girl. But it did happen. Did you see anyone else mounting a defense of their neighbourhoods?

Xilizhra wrote...
True, but as of now, that's a lesser priority than casting off the human power structures doing all of the damage.

Absolutely. Fight The Man, but keep an eye out for those Dalish, they can't be trusted. Given half a chance, they'll become The Man too.

[Fiacre]

Dorrieb wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Battle of Denerim, who were the only citizens who fought back and even kept the darkspawn out of their neighbourhood? The alienage. They didn't have soldiers, they didn't have training, and they weren't even supposed to have weapons. I don't know where you get this 'weak of will' nonsense, city elves are hard as nails.

Not in my playthrough (elf mage). Where did you get this? In any case, they needed me to fry the ones breaking through the gate.

I guess you missed it, not being an alienage girl. But it did happen. Did you see anyone else mounting a defense of their neighbourhoods?

You know, I only remember Shianni wailing something akin to "They're coming!" and me telling them to get outta the way so I can kick some Darkspawn ass. (Incidentally, I have the slight suspicion that it was less "the alienage elves were the only ones to mount a defence" -- and only do so if ordered by your Warden -- who may very well be a human... and more no one bothering to properly evacuate the alienage wehn the Darkspawn attacked.)

EDIT: After going through the dialogue in the toolset, Shianni does indeed insist in staying... IF you're her cousin. Otherwise you can tell her to stay and fight, and she will, or do as I said above, and she'll say, "Run, all of you! Run for your lives!". Alternatively, if you just tell her to get to safety, she'll state that she hopes there is still time, only for the lookout to scream that the 'spawn are breaking through. ...Which still means that the alienage elves are more likely to run than stay, and even so, I've only ever seen a few of them there, so presumably it's not the majority (but feel free to correct me if there's suddenly more when you get them to fight. I'm also pretty sure that the "Get yourselves to safety" option doesn't make them fight, since I know I've chosen that before and can't remember ever seeing them help.)

Modifié par Fiacre, 12 mars 2013 - 12:14 .

[WardenWade]

Fiacre wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Battle of Denerim, who were the only citizens who fought back and even kept the darkspawn out of their neighbourhood? The alienage. They didn't have soldiers, they didn't have training, and they weren't even supposed to have weapons. I don't know where you get this 'weak of will' nonsense, city elves are hard as nails.

Not in my playthrough (elf mage). Where did you get this? In any case, they needed me to fry the ones breaking through the gate.

I guess you missed it, not being an alienage girl. But it did happen. Did you see anyone else mounting a defense of their neighbourhoods?

You know, I only remember Shianni wailing something akin to "They're coming!" and me telling them to get outta the way so I can kick some Darkspawn ass. (Incidentally, I have the slight suspicion that it was less "the alienage elves were the only ones to mount a defence" -- and only do so if ordered by your Warden -- who may very well be a human... and more no one bothering to properly evacuate the alienage wehn the Darkspawn attacked.)

That's a good point, Fiacre.  It's probably very true about the elves not being properly evacuated.  I personally imagine some sort of evacuation was organized in Denerim, as much as possible, but the alienage was relatively on its own.  I do appreciate Shianni and her fellows' willingness to try, even if fear ultimately wins out.  Everyone is running for their lives at this point, I think--humans and elves and even surface dwarves--and the average city elf is likely less trained to arms than the average commoner. 

Their courage, even if as you mentioned you have to force it, is admirable to me personally.  I think the only other "gratis"/non-treaty help you receive outside of Darkspawn Chronicles is from the city guard protecting the gates upon entering the city.  And as you mentioned above, she will refuse to back down when playing as a CE Warden.

Modifié par WardenWade, 12 mars 2013 - 12:28 .

[Fiacre]

WardenWade wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Battle of Denerim, who were the only citizens who fought back and even kept the darkspawn out of their neighbourhood? The alienage. They didn't have soldiers, they didn't have training, and they weren't even supposed to have weapons. I don't know where you get this 'weak of will' nonsense, city elves are hard as nails.

Not in my playthrough (elf mage). Where did you get this? In any case, they needed me to fry the ones breaking through the gate.

I guess you missed it, not being an alienage girl. But it did happen. Did you see anyone else mounting a defense of their neighbourhoods?

You know, I only remember Shianni wailing something akin to "They're coming!" and me telling them to get outta the way so I can kick some Darkspawn ass. (Incidentally, I have the slight suspicion that it was less "the alienage elves were the only ones to mount a defence" -- and only do so if ordered by your Warden -- who may very well be a human... and more no one bothering to properly evacuate the alienage wehn the Darkspawn attacked.)

That's a good point, Fiacre.  It's probably very true about the elves not being properly evacuated.  I personally imagine some sort of evacuation was organized in Denerim, as much as possible, but the alienage was relatively on its own.  I do appreciate Shianni and her fellows' willingness to try, even if fear ultimately wins out.  Everyone is running for their lives at this point, I think--humans and elves and even surface dwarves--and the average city elf is likely less trained to arms than the average commoner. 

Their courage, even if as you mentioned you have to force it, is admirable to me personally.  I think the only other "gratis"/non-treaty help you receive outside of Darkspawn Chronicles is from the city guard protecting the gates upon entering the city.  And as you mentioned above, she will refuse to back down when playing as a CE Warden.

There's that, of course, but I wonder... Do we even know how anyone else would have reacted in that situation? After all, the humans in the marketplace/Palace District were either dead or already vacuated, wioth the elves left to fend for themselves. Things were apparently (even less) organized in Darkspwan Chronicles, were there actually were people left in the Marketplace (and a lot more elves in the alienage...) and at the very least Gorim attacked me. I think some of the human civilians did as well, but I'm not sure. And while granted, that's AU, it could be an indicator about how dwarves/humans may have reacted had some been left/alive when you got to their districts. (What also sticks out is that the Market and Palace are rather overrun by the time you get there, while the alienage only gets breached shortly after your arrival, considering that it was assumed to be unholdable. I guess those gates were sturdier than some others in that city...)

[Ianamus]

Even if the elves were to somehow create their own "bubble" empire where no humans could enter in the hopes of eventually regaining their immortality there are still so many issues. Would all humans who came close be killed on sight? In the case of a major war or another blight/ Qunari invasion would the elves remain entirely isolationist, even if it resulted in widespread death? (This is exactly what caused the issues between the elves of the dales and Orlais in the first place).

But then what about elves who voluntarily leave? I'm sure that not all elves would want to remain in a isolated bubble separated from the developing world for all of their lives, and there would be elves like Zevran or Merrill who would choose to remain with humans over going off with the elves forever. Would these elves already affected by the 'quickening' be forcibly kept out as well in case it is infectious? Would all elves who come into contact with humans accidentally be outcast for the same reason?

It just can't work on a practical level. The best thing for the elves would be to simply gain equal rights and more freedom to do what they want in human culture, be it to stay further away from humans in mostly-Elven settlements or just be a part of human society. An isolated Elven empire just isn't going to happen, and even if it did they would likely never regain their immortality through natural means (and of course, not all elves would even want immortality- particularly those who are very close to humans).

Modifié par EJ107, 12 mars 2013 - 01:01 .

[WardenWade]

Fiacre wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Battle of Denerim, who were the only citizens who fought back and even kept the darkspawn out of their neighbourhood? The alienage. They didn't have soldiers, they didn't have training, and they weren't even supposed to have weapons. I don't know where you get this 'weak of will' nonsense, city elves are hard as nails.

Not in my playthrough (elf mage). Where did you get this? In any case, they needed me to fry the ones breaking through the gate.

I guess you missed it, not being an alienage girl. But it did happen. Did you see anyone else mounting a defense of their neighbourhoods?

You know, I only remember Shianni wailing something akin to "They're coming!" and me telling them to get outta the way so I can kick some Darkspawn ass. (Incidentally, I have the slight suspicion that it was less "the alienage elves were the only ones to mount a defence" -- and only do so if ordered by your Warden -- who may very well be a human... and more no one bothering to properly evacuate the alienage wehn the Darkspawn attacked.)

That's a good point, Fiacre.  It's probably very true about the elves not being properly evacuated.  I personally imagine some sort of evacuation was organized in Denerim, as much as possible, but the alienage was relatively on its own.  I do appreciate Shianni and her fellows' willingness to try, even if fear ultimately wins out.  Everyone is running for their lives at this point, I think--humans and elves and even surface dwarves--and the average city elf is likely less trained to arms than the average commoner. 

Their courage, even if as you mentioned you have to force it, is admirable to me personally.  I think the only other "gratis"/non-treaty help you receive outside of Darkspawn Chronicles is from the city guard protecting the gates upon entering the city.  And as you mentioned above, she will refuse to back down when playing as a CE Warden.

There's that, of course, but I wonder... Do we even know how anyone else would have reacted in that situation? After all, the humans in the marketplace/Palace District were either dead or already vacuated, wioth the elves left to fend for themselves. Things were apparently (even less) organized in Darkspwan Chronicles, were there actually were people left in the Marketplace (and a lot more elves in the alienage...) and at the very least Gorim attacked me. I think some of the human civilians did as well, but I'm not sure. And while granted, that's AU, it could be an indicator about how dwarves/humans may have reacted had some been left/alive when you got to their districts. (What also sticks out is that the Market and Palace are rather overrun by the time you get there, while the alienage only gets breached shortly after your arrival, considering that it was assumed to be unholdable. I guess those gates were sturdier than some others in that city...)

That's very true   It was chaotic both in the main game and certainly during the DLC...we can't really say for sure what might have happened had everyone had a chance to truly prepare.  Some of the regular population, like Cauthrien and Howe in Darkspawn Chronicles, do fight while others don't, and the city elves are much the same. 

That's a good point about the alienage gates, as well.  Ironically, the same gates that keep the elves in may also keep danger out more effectively than elsewhere..?  That is interesting to consider, given that the palace-side gates are relatively ramshackle.

Modifié par WardenWade, 13 mars 2013 - 12:35 .

[hazarkazra]

I feel like I'm in the "something's off" camp when it comes to the Quickening. It seems to me a bit too convenient story to promote elven isolationism. I think the Quickening was far more mundane. Coming into contact with humans (and dwarfs) simply introduced new diseases to the population thus heightening the death rates, especially in the elder. Seeing that most of the ancient Elven stories are passed on to one to another that probably got lost in the translation and the myth was formed in a way to better serve Elven interests. Most of the 'old' stories of the Dalish seem to serve some kind of practical message, just like the fairy tales of old did.