348 réponses à ce sujet

[Gweedotk]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

I can respect Control as a decision. I still prefer Synthesis though as it provides the galaxy with so much more; it gives organics a kind of freedom that they've never experienced, and synthetics a level of understanding they've never experienced. I believe that both deserve that. If you look at the story, it's what a lot of people in that reality have been longing for - and I think they deserve it. Essentially Synthesis brings synthetic capabilities to organics (the ability to upgrade oneself, to join a galactic consensus, to win out over sickness and mortality), and it brings organic qualities to synthetics (the ability to truly empathise with feelings, as shown by EDI).

If you care about EDI, then Synthesis is the only choice, as Synthesis is the sole choice that lets her truly express her feelings for Shepard, for Joker, and everyone else. It lets her really feel for the first time, and she's overjoyed by the experience. What I frequently can't understand is the hatred for EDI, which seems... evil, from my perspective. She's always been trustworthy and helpful. EDI explains in the Synthesis ending how much better for her things are now, and she deserves it. I think she deserves that.

And Joker? In the Synthesis ending we learn that Joker's condition has been cured, completely cured. He's able to walk for the first time, he's able to do anything that any healthy member of the crew can. Joker's angst about his situation always bothered me, and I always wished I could do something to help him. But there was nothing in modern medicine that could make him right. Synthesis allows Joker a permanent reprieve from his suffering, so for the first time he's truly able to enjoy life. I think he deserves that.

Maybe, in time, with reaper technology the Control option could provide those possibilities to EDI and Joker (and people like them). So Control isn't so bad, I don't really see it as being so bad. I prefer Synthesis though because it provides that reprieve immediately; Joker is well, EDI can feel, and the galaxy seems a better place for it. Destroy is the only option I don't like. It's a completely selfish, misanthropic choice. It kills every synthetic, it kills (or severely harms) every person with synthetic components, and all so that Destroy fans can have their little 'breath' scene. A scene that they mistakenly believe that Shepard lives, but actually where they watch Shepard die a slow death (nerve twitches and air escaping the lungs doesn't mean life, especially when all the synthetic components keeping him alive are now destroyed).

I chose Synthesis because I think that Joker and EDI deserved better. I'm not misanthropic, sociopathic, or selfish. I was thinking of them. Control is okay because it might also result in a cure for Joker, and new possibilities for EDI. But to just ... Destroy? To kill EDI, to make Joker that much more miserable?

Destroy fans: What the eff did Joker ever do to you for you to hate him so much? For you to take the one person he's ever truly cared for away from him? To take one of the best chances away of him ever being well? What did he do to you? Seriously. Why do you hate Joker?

Synthesis also provides the answer to a conflict that is ultimately inevitable. As the Intelligence stated, organics create and enhance synthetics in order to improve their standard of living and lifestyle. According to the Intelligence and the Leviathans, those synthetics are eventually designed to surpass organics in order to meet these needs and wants which inevitably results in conflict.

There is no reason for a synthetic, who is by nature superior in all regards to organics, to be subjugated by them.

[Phoenix_Fyre]

I'm still a High EMS Destroy gal, but I would probably choose control if there was any type of live option...

I just wish Shep could have the info in the mind, instead of the entire body being destroyed.

[TommyNg]

Of course, Shepard is the guardian of peace even from the beginning , control let him forever be .

[Ieldra]

@OP:
Synthesis is still my preferred ending since I don't see any particular reason to preserve the status quo, and what Synthesis gives the galaxy is so much more. I agree, however, that Control has its own appeal with regard to the stability and continuity of galactic civilization, which none of the other endings provide in the same measure.

[Ieldra]

Phoenix_Fyre wrote...
I'm still a High EMS Destroy gal, but I would probably choose control if there was any type of live option...

I just wish Shep could have the info in the mind, instead of the entire body being destroyed.

There is no reason why Control!Shep couldn't create a human avatar. Shepard's body was already synthetic to a degree that they could be hacked (Overlord) so a permanent connection to their "higher" self would be possible. I know of a few headcanons using this scenario.

[CosmicGnosis]

Isn't it kind of odd that Control, the Illusive Man's choice, ends up being the "status quo" choice?

[Isichar]

Thats so true OP... except that the new Catalyst could just as easily continue on the cycles at anytime if it felt that was necessary. The ability to do so combined with the uncertainty of whether or not the new Catalyst will be able to continue Shepards form of logic under its own is something to be strongly considered.

Headcanon will ultimately rule all in this case so it does not really matter. But its easy to look at control and fall into the same slippery slope that TIM and all the other villains did. Letting your enemies believe they are in control can be on of the most effective ways to end up controlling them.

[Jadebaby]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Destroy's no option. After Citadel DLC, EDI's proven synthetics deserve better.

While I agree with the premise in the title, this is fallable logic. The Catalyst said that synthetics will always rebel. This means that one day EDI will turn on you. Just because someone's your friend one day, doesn't mean they can't be your enemy the next.

[FOX216BC]

Citadel dlc last scene just makes people who already are convinced of their choice even more eh... convinced that they making the(ir) right choice.

I mean Shepard sounds like he/she already accepted he/she is not going to survive this war.

So Control, synthesis, low ems destroy and refuse can be regarded as the right choice.

But when you hold your LI words in account then high ems detroy+breath scene feels like the right choice.

Really the YOUR only choice op.
Should just have post it in a control support thread.

Modifié par FOX216BC, 07 mars 2013 - 10:08 .

[Jassu1979]

Gweedotk wrote...
Synthesis also provides the answer to a conflict that is ultimately inevitable. As the Intelligence stated, organics create and enhance synthetics in order to improve their standard of living and lifestyle. According to the Intelligence and the Leviathans, those synthetics are eventually designed to surpass organics in order to meet these needs and wants which inevitably results in conflict.

There is no reason for a synthetic, who is by nature superior in all regards to organics, to be subjugated by them.

Quoting the Catalyst does not make for a good argument, as his "logic" is more than a little lopsided.
Whenever somebody uses words like "always" and "inevitable" in their argument, chances are that it does not hold any water, or is in fact only applicable some (but not all) of the time.

Sure, the relationship between creators and created has to change once the created attain full-fledged sapience.
And sure, this considerable shift bears a strong potential for conflict that will pretty often result in a violent clash.
But the conclusion drawn from this observation is spurious and untenable.

It is indeed like saying that any car, driven long enough, will always and inevitably be involved in a lethal accident.
It's not a wholly inaccurate observation, but it'd be insane to ban cars based on that logic. (Or, to keep it closer to the Catalyst's "solution", to pay a visit to civilizations every ten thousand years checking for potential inventors of cars and then killing them to build gigantic space-cars that entomb their memories.)

Case in point: the quarians and the geth. The whole Morning war could have been avoided if the quarians had not freaked when they realized that their robotic servitors had reached sapience.
In fact, the best outcome of the Rannoch mission sees both of these people on the way towars synthesis - completely without green space magic. They've just embarked on a symbiotic relationship that will ultimately benefit both.

Besides, organics kill other organics all the time - often even with genocidal intent. Just think of the Rachni and Krogan. That still does not justify killing their entire species just to prevent potential future conflict.

And this is what's wrong with the whole Synthesis solution as offered by the Catalyst: the solution is already underway WITHOUT the use of the crucible, and it will be a gradual transition allowing for new ties to grow stronger, old grudges to be buried and mutual understanding to blossom.
Green magic synthesis, on the other hand, would be a bit like turning on a magic beam that would transform every single human on earth into the same ethnicity: they might look the same, they might even share some of the same thought patterns (depending on just how much the green beam violates the autonomy of their minds), but it would not result in universal global peace.

[visionazzery]

Kunari801 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hmm... still a destroyer, myself. Everyone gets a different takeaway.

^^^^^  But I respect the OP for his opinion but I tought Citadel made Destroy even better, my Shepard has a home to return to after he recovers and marries his LI.  Besides, it's up to each player to decide if the Geth and EDI can't be repaired too.  In mine, they do. 

I DON'T in fact of all the topics I read commented on I will not hesitate to point out how pointless this topic is it a entire premise by the op based on a massive oversight of one inconvenient truthful fact: dlc were made with it intent to have no bearing whatsoever as to the nature of Shepard and the galaxy's fate. Of all the topics on the forum this is the most pointless I come across as it blatantly disregards the above fact.  That combined with point that of the 11 pages of responses to this conspiracy theory, most pages still rightfully insist their view of ending has not changed. I have a topic that counters this and other points implying that dlc = changes pple to embrace the ending. For those that want mre common sense approach and advocate destroy check out my profile and see I think the first two forum topics in my profile. Cnt paste link on touchphone. I respect op right to have diff view. But I do not respect the assertions by op one eyota. Sorry to say. 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Isichar wrote...

Thats so true OP... except that the new Catalyst could just as easily continue on the cycles at anytime if it felt that was necessary. The ability to do so combined with the uncertainty of whether or not the new Catalyst will be able to continue Shepards form of logic under its own is something to be strongly considered.

Headcanon will ultimately rule all in this case so it does not really matter. But its easy to look at control and fall into the same slippery slope that TIM and all the other villains did. Letting your enemies believe they are in control can be on of the most effective ways to end up controlling them.

Thats my feelings on it.  I did find myself cozying up to Control a bit after Citadel but still when I really think about it I just cant stand it.

Its true headcanon prettymuch defines what really happens.  I could just imagine Catalshep stays good and doesn't restart the cycle.  But I can't.  When given to much freedom to fill in the blanks, I find myself believing what I think would really happen, not what I personally wish to happen.  And I think the cycles would continue if Control really happaned.  The new catalyst is not shepard, its a catalyst with shepard's memories.  Memories warp and degrade in time.  An eternity of guardianship could easily make the new catalyst end up right back where the old one was.  ****, the old catalyst itself could be second generation already, or third, or however many.  Who's to say a species, or multiple, never reached that point before and made the same damn choice only for it to back fire?  Thats the kind of thoughts that fill my head and force me to not pick that option.  At least with Destroy I know what I'm getting.  Not the most desirable of situations, but at least its simple and straight forward. 

[Auld Wulf]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

[...] because it has to be forced upon every being in the galaxy.

Except that's not true.

Unless we're going to have the utterly lovely (and undeniably asinine) argument of "canon isn't canon" again, it's clearly stated in one of the Synthesis endings that it's optional. If you don't cure the krogan, EDI's lines change - she tells the player that the krogans have chosen to not be a part of synthesis because they aren't ready. One day, when they're ready, they'll join the rest of the galaxy. But for now, they wanted to remain as they were.

So Synthesis is optional, it's just that a lot of people actually choose to opt into it. I guess open-mindedness to the possibilities of transhumanism is more commonplace in the future. You'll always have those who'll remain outside of it, as EDI pointed out, but by and large? Most people just seemed to choose Synthesis as a solution for them. I could see why in a lot of cases. I mean - look at Joker, it cures him of one illness that, until that point, had had no cure available.

Based upon what EDI says in that ending, Synthesis being 'forced on people' is very much headcanon.

[Auld Wulf]

mereck7980 wrote...

Even if the cost of that is the loss of EDI and the Geth.

I wonder what Joker would have to say about that?

"So, chief... to fuel your xenophobia and to power your tinfoil hat, I had to lose my best chance of a cure. A cure to something I've been suffering with since birth. And I ceased to give a damn about what a person was a long time ago, synthetic, blue, green, or miniature giant space hamster - I'd grown beyond that, and I thought you had too. It's weird to think that the guy who was always cracking wise at the helm matured more than you... scary thought.

So I lose my love, too. And for what? So that we can all sing the praises of the size of your penis, and how you out-penised kilometers high techbeasts? Well, you won't be hearing me singing those praises. EDI is six feet under thanks to your bull, so don't be expecting your ever-loving Joker to shower you with forgiveness any time soon. You don't deserve it. You could have taken advantage of the Reapers and their technology, for the betterment of us all. But no, you had to have your petty little victory.

Was it worth it, Commander? Why don't you ask EDI if it was... I'm outta here, I can't stand even being near you any more."

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 07 mars 2013 - 11:44 .

[o Ventus]

Auld Wulf wrote...

snip for preservation of sanity

You aren't even trying to troll at this point, are you? Most trolls do it with a sense of humor, but you? You're awful at it.

[The Night Mammoth]

Auld Wulf wrote...

mereck7980 wrote...

Even if the cost of that is the loss of EDI and the Geth.

I wonder what Joker would have to say about that?

"So, chief... to fuel your xenophobia and to power your tinfoil hat, I had to lose my best chance of a cure. A cure to something I've been suffering with since birth. And I ceased to give a damn about what a person was a long time ago, synthetic, blue, green, or miniature giant space hamster - I'd grown beyond that, and I thought you had too. It's weird to think that the guy who was always cracking wise at the helm matured more than you... scary thought.

So I lose my love, too. And for what? So that we can all sing the praises of the size of your penis, and how you out-penised kilometers high techbeasts? Well, you won't be hearing me singing those praises. EDI is six feet under thanks to your bull, so don't be expecting your ever-loving Joker to shower you with forgiveness any time soon. You don't deserve it. You could have taken advantage of the Reapers and their technology, for the betterment of us all. But no, you had to have your petty little victory.

Was it worth it, Commander? Why don't you ask EDI if it was... I'm outta here, I can't stand even being near you any more."

Assuming Joker doesn't actually agree with Shepard's choice given that the Reapers are responsible for the deaths of his father and sister. 

[vonSlash]

D.Shepard wrote...
I was under the impression Control ending does not kill Shepard but turns it into,  let's call it, a new entity....

It kills him, but not before deleting the old Catalyst and making a new one that had Shepard's memories, Shepard's morals, and Shepard's beliefs.

[Neeh]

Still clining to destroy.

Alot of events and conversations in the DLC ended with me adding, "But I'll die/be dead", wich just makes it very gloomy. So, super fancy high EMS destory where synethics live works the best.

Just feels like the 'sacrefice synthetics' is tagged on to not make destroy the hands down obvious choice.

[Linkenski]

So basically the Citadel DLC is another evidence that shows how ****ing stupid the endings were thought out. You have to make one of three choices that can reshape the galaxy because of what exactly? Well, apparently making peace between synthetics and organics on Rannoch isn't proof that there is no conflict between the two lifeforms. The ending will suck no matter what as long as it is as it is, but i'm willing to lay it to rest now, because i've seen the last of shepard and i know it wont change.

[3DandBeyond]

Hope that little family likes husks for neighbors and isn't horrified by seeing reapers walking around with people goo in them.

After Thessia, Liara really would love to have reaper friends or reaper galactic cops. After Palaven, so would Garrus. After Earth, I am really sure humans would say, "goodie, just love to see those reapers running around. What do we feed them?"

[3DandBeyond]

Linkenski wrote...

So basically the Citadel DLC is another evidence that shows how ****ing stupid the endings were thought out. You have to make one of three choices that can reshape the galaxy because of what exactly? Well, apparently making peace between synthetics and organics on Rannoch isn't proof that there is no conflict between the two lifeforms. The ending will suck no matter what as long as it is as it is, but i'm willing to lay it to rest now, because i've seen the last of shepard and i know it wont change.

You are being told that a choice must be made because synthetics that get too smart will be too dumb and might accidentally kill all organic life (even fishies and grass) or too evil so they will intentionally kill all organic life (seriously, they'd get mad at puppies).  So, to prevent this organics must become fully integrated with tech thereby making organic life extinct.  Or, an ex-organic must control synthetics in order to control (police) organics.  Or, synthetic life must be destroyed so it can't become too smart/too stupid or too smart/too evil and kill organic people, puppies, and trees.

[3DandBeyond]

vonSlash wrote...

D.Shepard wrote...
I was under the impression Control ending does not kill Shepard but turns it into,  let's call it, a new entity....

It kills him, but not before deleting the old Catalyst and making a new one that had Shepard's memories, Shepard's morals, and Shepard's beliefs.

Doesn't say anything about Shepard's morals or beliefs.  It says thoughts and memories and the Shepard voice in Control is not just Shepard's, so you have no idea if it deleted the old catalyst or not.  Since the catalyst isn't even using his "real" voice and does so in Refuse, you have to wonder who are the other voices?

And my paragon Shepard says things in that epilog that go against what her morals and beliefs were.  She's no longer Shepard, but is Shepard's data uploaded into a less efficient construct that cannot make use of all that is contained within human life and the human mind and heart.

Consider that many people say the kid catalyst may know what killing means but might not really understand it.  Shepard is having her data uploaded into a computer that was never designed to care or feel.  Morality and even beliefs are heavily based upon emotional feeling.  Shreaper has none.  She's supposed to now have logic instead but since she's in the kid's infrastructure and his logic is a mess, it's just as likely that Shreaper's logic won't be real logic either.

[Dean_the_Young]

o Ventus wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

snip for preservation of sanity

You aren't even trying to troll at this point, are you? Most trolls do it with a sense of humor, but you? You're awful at it.

Actually, I think it was worth taking seriously: it might not have been totally in-character, but it's a pretty conceivable Joker rant if there had been the opportunity and Joker knew about the different choices.

We (as consumers and players of RPGs) could honestly use a bit more negative feedback from sympathetic characters when we do things that hurt them.

[GreyLycanTrope]

What the Citadel DLC did for me give me further distaste of all the options presented. I finally got a chance to hang out in the universe I've helped form and have been fighting to protect, I'm not about to radically change it by letting the Reapers rule over it. Synthesis seems like it's even less needed, and I'm not picking destroy after telling EDI she has the right the earn an income.

The Citadel DLC is just about every thing I loved about ME, I'm not about to change it for sake of an ass pull plot twist.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 07 mars 2013 - 01:43 .

[Liquidmark]

The synthesis ending is the only one that is guaranteed to stop the cycle forever.

Destroy is taking a 'we'll take our chances doing things our way' approach. Basically you're wiping the slate almost clean to start anew.

Control is basically Shep's mind becoming one with the Reaper hivemind. How long until Shep-reaper concluded that the cycle is inevitable and begins the cycle again?

Synthesis turns everyone into cyborgs and preserves all life under that framework. That's what the Reaper's goal was when they started the cycle, so they no longer serve a purpose and go away forever. Nobody has to die to satisfy weird machine logic ever again.