348 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
We (as consumers and players of RPGs) could honestly use a bit more negative feedback from sympathetic characters when we do things that hurt them.

Tease Kaidan about his cooking he'll call you an ass

[Dr_Extrem]

Liquidmark wrote...

The synthesis ending is the only one that is guaranteed to stop the cycle forever.

how? 

it only makes sure, that the former organic lifeforms are now able to adapt as fast as synthetics. this would make them equel in the "inevitable conflict" between organic and synthetic life. synthesis "evens the odds" - thats all.


in addition: the reapers are still around in synthesis (as well, as the catalyst). it could start a new cycle if it wants.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 07 mars 2013 - 01:51 .

[FlyinElk212]

Wow. A lot of awesome posts to respond to. Thanks for the civil discussion guys! I was a smidge worried with my title, but it looks like the best of this forum came to bring their A-Game!

Dilandau3000 wrote...

The problem is that in my mind, the only true paragon thing my Shepard would do with Control is fly the reapers into a black hole. The fact that the EC cutscenes indicate this doesn't happen already means he is getting corrupted by the influence of the reapers.

Most importantly however, I still stand by my roleplaying decision to only base the decision on things Shepard could know at the point the choice is made (which is basically how I reasoned it the first playthrough, since I didn't know the outcomes of any of the choices). At that point, I thought that Control was a trap (TIM couldn't do it, but Shepard can just go ahead, yeah right), Synthesis just sounded like nonsense (even with the EC, I still don't know what it actually does or how; the description given is technobabble of the highest order), so that left Destroy as the least bad and only actually viable choice.

I respect that, and I do agree that, due to Shep's tonality in the narration of the EC and the simple fact that REAPERS ARE STILL THERE shows that the Shepalyst isn't 100% Shepard. Which may come back to haunt the galaxy. However, the actual meaning behind the words Shepard's saying belies his tone, because it seems as though he (at the moment) has the best of intentions.

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP: Synthesis is still my preferred ending since I don't see any particular reason to preserve the status quo, and what Synthesis gives the galaxy is so much more. I agree, however, that Control has its own appeal with regard to the stability and continuity of galactic civilization, which none of the other endingsprovide in the same measure.

Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

And I guess the purpose of this thread was to show that the Citadel DLC cemented in my mind that, despite the advantages Synthesis gives humanity, going against the thought process that this cycle, as it is, can solve it's own problems by itself, feels like a betrayal to the little family I've now created. And I didn't feel this strongly until I ACTUALLY SAW my family interact before my very eyes.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 07 mars 2013 - 04:28 .

[Gweedotk]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Quoting the Catalyst does not make for a good argument, as his "logic" is more than a little lopsided.
Whenever somebody uses words like "always" and "inevitable" in their argument, chances are that it does not hold any water, or is in fact only applicable some (but not all) of the time.

Sure, the relationship between creators and created has to change once the created attain full-fledged sapience.
And sure, this considerable shift bears a strong potential for conflict that will pretty often result in a violent clash.
But the conclusion drawn from this observation is spurious and untenable.

It is indeed like saying that any car, driven long enough, will always and inevitably be involved in a lethal accident.
It's not a wholly inaccurate observation, but it'd be insane to ban cars based on that logic. (Or, to keep it closer to the Catalyst's "solution", to pay a visit to civilizations every ten thousand years checking for potential inventors of cars and then killing them to build gigantic space-cars that entomb their memories.)

Case in point: the quarians and the geth. The whole Morning war could have been avoided if the quarians had not freaked when they realized that their robotic servitors had reached sapience.
In fact, the best outcome of the Rannoch mission sees both of these people on the way towars synthesis - completely without green space magic. They've just embarked on a symbiotic relationship that will ultimately benefit both.

Besides, organics kill other organics all the time - often even with genocidal intent. Just think of the Rachni and Krogan. That still does not justify killing their entire species just to prevent potential future conflict.

And this is what's wrong with the whole Synthesis solution as offered by the Catalyst: the solution is already underway WITHOUT the use of the crucible, and it will be a gradual transition allowing for new ties to grow stronger, old grudges to be buried and mutual understanding to blossom.
Green magic synthesis, on the other hand, would be a bit like turning on a magic beam that would transform every single human on earth into the same ethnicity: they might look the same, they might even share some of the same thought patterns (depending on just how much the green beam violates the autonomy of their minds), but it would not result in universal global peace.

Precisely the reason there are multiple choices offered. All are chosen relative to an individual's particular preferences. The synthesis ending appeals to me as it avoids the unecessary bloodshed that is indeed inevitable between synthetics and organics.

We must remember that to a synthetic, time is an illusion. The Intelligence does not think in terms of a few decades or centuries, but in thousands, tens of thousands, even millions of years. On a large enough time scale, the probability for any particular event rises to complete certainty. Peace may prevail between synthetics and organics for a short while, but not long enough as the Geth and Quarians so astutely proved.

Indeed, the Intelligence was created for the very purpose of finding a solution to the "chaos" of conflict between organic and synthetic life. The Leviathan's watched their thrall civilizations repeatably create synthetic life only for the inevitable clash to occur and the civilization to be wiped out. This was a concern that needed to be addressed as a dead civilization could not pay "tribute" to the Leviathans; and thus they created the construct with the intent of finding a solution to protect life.

When one considers the possibilities, then one can certainly come to the very same conclusion that the Intelligence did. Harvesting life to preserve it in "Reaper" form is not a false solution; the collective knowledge of those cultures are preserved in the bio-mechanical being that is the "Reaper"- although that is not to say it is not undesirable from the perspective of the organic cultures whom fall victim to the Harvest. Remember that the purpose of the Intelligence is to preserve life- there are no restrictions or parameters on how exactly it must do so.

Modifié par Gweedotk, 07 mars 2013 - 03:35 .

[FlyinElk212]

Jadebaby wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Destroy's no option. After Citadel DLC, EDI's proven synthetics deserve better.

While I agree with the premise in the title, this is fallable logic. The Catalyst said that synthetics will always rebel. This means that one day EDI will turn on you. Just because someone's your friend one day, doesn't mean they can't be your enemy the next.

Oh absolutely. But it also doesn't mean that we shouldn't at least give synthetics a chance, particularly with figureheads like EDI and the Legion-influenced Geth. Destroy doesn't give them that chance. Control does.

If they rebel, The Shepalyst Police will wipe 'em out then.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I'm holding out for a Control version of MEHEM to actually end my own game on. Control is the most appropriate ending for my own Shepard no matter what (Destroy is too bloody, Synthesis too poorly explained, both leave the galaxy at risk from a krogan resurgence and/or Leviathan shenanigans), but being alive to appreciate my new life is wonderful as well.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

In my opinion it makes control seem even more horrendous.

[mereck7980]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

mereck7980 wrote...

Even if the cost of that is the loss of EDI and the Geth.

I wonder what Joker would have to say about that?

"So, chief... to fuel your xenophobia and to power your tinfoil hat, I had to lose my best chance of a cure. A cure to something I've been suffering with since birth. And I ceased to give a damn about what a person was a long time ago, synthetic, blue, green, or miniature giant space hamster - I'd grown beyond that, and I thought you had too. It's weird to think that the guy who was always cracking wise at the helm matured more than you... scary thought.

So I lose my love, too. And for what? So that we can all sing the praises of the size of your penis, and how you out-penised kilometers high techbeasts? Well, you won't be hearing me singing those praises. EDI is six feet under thanks to your bull, so don't be expecting your ever-loving Joker to shower you with forgiveness any time soon. You don't deserve it. You could have taken advantage of the Reapers and their technology, for the betterment of us all. But no, you had to have your petty little victory.

Was it worth it, Commander? Why don't you ask EDI if it was... I'm outta here, I can't stand even being near you any more."

Assuming Joker doesn't actually agree with Shepard's choice given that the Reapers are responsible for the deaths of his father and sister. 

Not to mention the fact that Joker has no way of knowing, in the destroy option, that green space magic might have cured him of his disease.  Not to mention the fact that the EVERYONE THAT PARTICIPATED ON THE ASSAULT ON EARTH was assuming that the Crucible was going to destroy the Reapers.  The only person who had any knowledge that there was a "choice" was Shepard.  So, any opinons they might have on the subject are pretty irrelevant.  Everyone that takes part in the mission knows that they could die, that includes EDI and the Geth.  All sapient life is playing for keeps.  It is terrible that the Geth and EDI have to die to rid the galaxy of the Reapers, but in the long run any sacrifice is warranted to achieve that end.  I don't pick destroy so Shepard can live, I pick it because it is the most responsible choice.  

I can't wrap my head around the idea that people are ok with coexisting with the Reapers post war.  In synthesis they have lost their primary motivation for the harvest, so who knows what path they will choose to take?  They are by far the most powerful force in the galaxy and even if everyone is now some transorganic hybrid what is to stop them from doing something terrible in the future?  

In the control scenario the possibility exisits for Shepalyst to change into some type of techno God that uses the Reapers to enforce its will across the galaxy.  Yes, Paragon Shep might keep this force in check for period of time and might even use them for "good" in the near term.  BUT who knows what could happen in the future?  Most peoples that are "policed" by an outside force for long enough rebel.  What measures would Shepalyst take to put down a revolution 100 years after it comes to power?  

Modifié par mereck7980, 07 mars 2013 - 03:44 .

[cerberus1701]

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

[Xilizhra]

In the control scenario the possibility exisits for Shepalyst to change into some type of techno God that uses the Reapers to enforce its will across the galaxy. Yes, Paragon Shep might keep this force in check for period of time and might even use them for "good" in the near term. BUT who knows what could happen in the future? Most peoples that are "policed" by an outside force for long enough rebel. What measures would Shepalyst take to put down a revolution 100 years after it comes to power?

If the Reapers must use self-defense to survive, then I don't see why it shouldn't happen. Their presence doesn't have to be onerous; they're really there primarily to stop wars and other such things. They're entirely impractical to use for policing planetary populations in everyday life.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

and synthesis is not, there are many problems with synthesis, but consent is also one of them. Not to mention if one person doesn't want it, the catalyst is it won't work.

[crimzontearz]

Sorry but no....my Shepard will live...the Geth will be rebuilt, eventually, and I am sorry for Joker but EDI would have agreed putting another AI in control of the reper tonka trucks would have been just as insane as cyber raping the galaxy

Also, now I have an apartment to retire to

[mereck7980]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

On a certain level I am open to something like synthesis taking place.  It certainly isn't "genetic rape".  More than likely our species will find itself walking this path in the future, assuming we don't destroy ourselves or our enviornment first.  

My only real concern with this ending is living in a galaxy where the reapers still exist.  If they flew into a star or something after the events of the endgame took place I would be much more open to this ending option.  

[FlyinElk212]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

Excuse me for being hung up on that. Just why use a misleading term like "rape", which is BODILY INTERCOURSE without consent? There is certainly a more apt term out there to describe something without consent.

But that's off topic. The main reason for me bringing this up in the first place was to show that Synthesis haters miss the point of Synthesis, and that while it has it's advantages, I do not believe it outweighs Control's advantages, PARTICULARLY after viewing this DLC.

[cerberus1701]

DinoSteve wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

and synthesis is not, there are many problems with synthesis, but consent is also one of them. Not to mention if one person doesn't want it, the catalyst is it won't work.

And you can't even find 100% of the population in THIS world that thinks slavery or sex with kids or genocide are bad ideas.

There's no way (at LEAST) hundreds of billions of people would agree to it.

[cerberus1701]

mereck7980 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

On a certain level I am open to something like synthesis taking place.  It certainly isn't "genetic rape".  More than likely our species will find itself walking this path in the future, assuming we don't destroy ourselves or our enviornment first.  

My only real concern with this ending is living in a galaxy where the reapers still exist.  If they flew into a star or something after the events of the endgame took place I would be much more open to this ending option.  

It would be if someone chose it FOR you

[CronoDragoon]

I like whoever's post it was that said the DLC made each player feel like they made the right choice. I think that's because the characters and world were obviously a big part in the original decision to pick one's ending and do what's best for everyone. Since this DLC is about how awesome the characters are, whichever thoughts led to your initial decision become amplified.

[cerberus1701]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

Excuse me for being hung up on that. Just why use a misleading term like "rape", which is BODILY INTERCOURSE without consent? There is certainly a more apt term out there to describe something without consent.

Rape (noun)

1.
the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3.
statutory rape.
4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5.
Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
verb (used with object)
6.
to force to have sexual intercourse.
7.
to plunder (a place); despoil.
8.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.


"Rape" is an apt term as I am seized by force in this case.

[Gweedotk]

The Reapers are no threat post-synthesis. Their primary purpose- preserve organic life- has been partially fulfilled. Partially in the context that it is no longer necessary to harvest and preserve organic life, due in part to the fact that purely organic life no longer exists within the Milky Way galaxy.

The Intelligence understands that the role it must now play is one of mutual cooperation. As an artificial intelligence, it does not have any desires of power or control, there would be no purpose in attacking the synthesized civilizations.

Modifié par Gweedotk, 07 mars 2013 - 04:22 .

[mereck7980]

cerberus1701 wrote...

mereck7980 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

On a certain level I am open to something like synthesis taking place.  It certainly isn't "genetic rape".  More than likely our species will find itself walking this path in the future, assuming we don't destroy ourselves or our enviornment first.  

My only real concern with this ending is living in a galaxy where the reapers still exist.  If they flew into a star or something after the events of the endgame took place I would be much more open to this ending option.  

It would be if someone chose it FOR you

You have a point.  I never felt completely comfortable with the idea of one person making this choice for all life in the galaxy.  The concept of integrating technology into orgainc life is intriging, but its application in the ME3 endgame is not really acceptable to me.  That combined with the continued existince of the reapers in both the sysntheis and control endings are the reason why I always choose destroy.  

[DeinonSlayer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I like whoever's post it was that said the DLC made each player feel like they made the right choice. I think that's because the characters and world were obviously a big part in the original decision to pick one's ending and do what's best for everyone. Since this DLC is about how awesome the characters are, whichever thoughts led to your initial decision become amplified.

Jack is 100% pro-Destroy, in case of Jackmancers who didn't favor it.

[FlyinElk212]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I like whoever's post it was that said the DLC made each player feel like they made the right choice. I think that's because the characters and world were obviously a big part in the original decision to pick one's ending and do what's best for everyone. Since this DLC is about how awesome the characters are, whichever thoughts led to your initial decision become amplified.

Jack is 100% pro-Destroy, in case of Jackmancers who didn't favor it.

To be fair, with the final scene of the DLC, it kinda seems like EVERY LI is pro-Destroy.

[cerberus1701]

mereck7980 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

mereck7980 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote: Also completely understandable. To me, the vitriol fans give Synthesis has less to do with what it actually is and more to do with a misunderstanding of what synthesis's actually doing (them calling Synthesis "genetic rape" is just flat out wrong).

It is not "flat out wrong"

You seem to be getting hung up on what's being done to the body.

Rape is an issue of consent.

On a certain level I am open to something like synthesis taking place.  It certainly isn't "genetic rape".  More than likely our species will find itself walking this path in the future, assuming we don't destroy ourselves or our enviornment first.  

My only real concern with this ending is living in a galaxy where the reapers still exist.  If they flew into a star or something after the events of the endgame took place I would be much more open to this ending option.  

It would be if someone chose it FOR you

You have a point.  I never felt completely comfortable with the idea of one person making this choice for all life in the galaxy.  The concept of integrating technology into orgainc life is intriging, but its application in the ME3 endgame is not really acceptable to me.  That combined with the continued existince of the reapers in both the sysntheis and control endings are the reason why I always choose destroy.  

And those my primary issues as well.

Shepard, as awesome as Shepard is, really isn't fit to make the choice for everyone.

You're also right in that I find something abhorrent about control and synthesis as they, on some level, validate everything the Reapers have done in wiping out cycle after cycle.

Just can't do, either.

[FlyinElk212]

cerberus1701 wrote...

You're also right in that I find something abhorrent about control and synthesis as they, on some level, validate everything the Reapers have done in wiping out cycle after cycle.

Just can't do, either.

Yeah, that's my one qualm with Control. It DOES imply that the galactic issue can't be resolved without Reaper influence...

I'm more okay with Control than Synthesis though, because while Synthesis enforces the Reapers solution onto to us, Control allows the galaxy to find their own Solution, albeit under Reaper watch.