348 réponses à ce sujet

[mereck7980]

Gweedotk wrote...

The Reapers are no threat post-synthesis. Their primary purpose- preserve organic life- is has been partially fulfilled. Partially in the context that they no longer have to harvest organic life in order to preserve it, as synthetic and organic life have merged. The Intelligence still exists and understands that the role it must now play is one of mutual cooperation. As an artificial intelligence, it does not have any desires of power or control, there would be no purpose in attacking the synthesized civilizations.

You are assuming that the catalyst wouldn't change in this scenario.  No one can really say what it will do when it has lost its principal reason for existing.  If it no longer needs to "preserve" the balance between organic and synthetic life then what will it do?  How will it play a role in mutual cooperation?  It, along with the reapers, represents a tremendous potential threat to continued existince of the new transorganic galatic civilazation that emerges after the war.  

What if, after a century or so passes, it decides that things aren't progressing in the right way and it decides to "step in"?  It isn't like the catalyst doesn't have a history of taking drastic measures to accomplish its goals...

[GamerrangerX]

Control is the best ending a paragon control is even better,remember Shepard mind remain intact plus she can creaet a new body,a Control ending will make Shepard have a heavy weight the galaxy affair,all race that fought the reapers will become a council race under a paragon Shepard,the Reapers"Shepard" become a council race and you will have EDI as your personnal advisor and councilor of the NEW AI RACE THE REPAER,

[cerberus1701]

GamerrangerX wrote...

Control is the best ending a paragon control is even better,remember Shepard mind remain intact plus she can creaet a new body,a Control ending will make Shepard have a heavy weight the galaxy affair,all race that fought the reapers will become a council race under a paragon Shepard,the Reapers"Shepard" become a council race and you will have EDI as your personnal advisor and councilor of the NEW AI RACE THE REPAER,

I don't know that this is a long term solution, either.

Part of what makes one human is their connections to others. Even misanthropes like myself who generally dislike most of the human race can't and don't entirely eschew human connection to other people.

What happens after a few hundred years (or a thousand)  with Shepard on the other plane. At some point, with all that power and the majority of your connections to what you were  now dust, at some point shortly thereafter you simply are going to start seeing what's left as a galactic ant colony.

Small things.

Meaningless in the grand scheme.

Tp paraphrase Loki: the boot has no concern for the ant.

Stop being human long enough and it becomes a memory of what you once were, not who you are.

Ultimately Shepard just becomes another catalyst. Ultimately control solves nothing.

[Xilizhra]

What happens after a few hundred years (or a thousand) with Shepard on the other plane. At some point, with all that power and the majority of your connections to what you were now dust, at some point shortly thereafter you simply are going to start seeing what's left as a galactic ant colony.

A psychological devolution more likely to take place in solely organic beings, but a synthetic with perfect memory would be able to perfectly remember all connections and use them as a basis for continued empathy.

[Subject M]

PainCakesx wrote...

Subject M wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

I'm sort of the opposite. It cemented my choice of Destroy.

After that, it's hard to go "and now it's time to commit suicide." Shepard has too much to live for, and synthetics can be rebuilt.

Just as any group wiped out can be ressurected in one for or the other wia cloning or other types of genetic engineering. The question is, is it right to wipe out an entire category of beings just because some of them are a gigantic threat when there are the options of siezing control of their ability to be a threat, or remove their reason for agression by adding technological functions to the targeted groups being?

None of the endings are ethically or morally good. Destroy, even putting aside Shepard's survival, is the lesser of the evils. Mass genetic manipulation and absolute alterations of every being in the galaxy is beyond what I'm willing to do. I also believe Control to be too big a risk. There's an old saying: Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The mere existence of something as overpowering as the Reapers is a destabilizing agent. Good intentions or not, that is simply too much power for one man.

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/16159608/5#16162697

Modifié par Subject M, 07 mars 2013 - 05:50 .

[L2 Sentinel]

I sided with EDI when she wanted to dance with Joker. I wanted her to live as much as she could before she becomes an unfortunate casualty in this awful war. Listening to the Anderson biography logs and interviews only reinforced my belief that Destroy is the only ending. A good leader values the life of his squad above the success of the mission, but knows that the cost failing some missions is greater than the cost of losing that person's life. It's a terrible line to walk. Letting the reapers live is too high of a cost.

[mereck7980]

cerberus1701 wrote...
Ultimately Shepard just becomes another catalyst. Ultimately control solves nothing.

I completely agree with your premise.  Either Shepard retains his invididual personality and gets lost due to a lack of connection to other people (especially his friends and loved ones) or his consciousness becomes more like the catalyst and we are back to square one.  

The first option is a potentially power mad techno god and the second is a cold, calculating sentient.  Both have an incredibly powerful force of reapers at their beck and call.  Trusting in the benevolence of Shepalyst is too much of a risk.  That is why the reapers have to go.  

[cerberus1701]

Xilizhra wrote...

What happens after a few hundred years (or a thousand) with Shepard on the other plane. At some point, with all that power and the majority of your connections to what you were now dust, at some point shortly thereafter you simply are going to start seeing what's left as a galactic ant colony.

A psychological devolution more likely to take place in solely organic beings, but a synthetic with perfect memory would be able to perfectly remember all connections and use them as a basis for continued empathy.

Perfect memory post control, perhaps. But before that his/her memory would be as fragmented and piecemeal as it is now for the vast majority of people.

If anything, this doesn't strengthen control, it weakens it because that which you remember with perfect clarity would become more "real" than the fragments.

[Obadiah]

The crew protects Shep, so Shep protects the galaxy?

[Subject M]

Jassu1979 wrote...

MEHEM is a bit TOO happy for me, but given the source material they had to work with, it still seems to be the best option.

I don't mind that victory does not come free - I think that even in the "best" scenario, squad mates should inevitably die (unless you manage a perfect run, which should be EXTREMELY hard to achieve - possibly not on the first playthrough).

But - and here's what's so dastardly about the way Bioware rigged the destroy option - they should die of their own volition, in combat, not because Shepard presses a button. There *is* a difference, and it is important to me.

I think any really good ending of the ME-series should not only have reflected the journey, but also emphasise the reality of the horrible costs of the war. I had hoped that Shepard would have different ways of surviving (reflecting what he/she had accomplished) but that when all is said and done, the the victors return to Earth in what many expect to be the moment of Triumph and celebration, the horrible cost of war becomes clear.

Shepard and his friends have survived and will rebuild, but most of the fleet and a majority of the human race has been wiped out. The same goes for the other races. But even as this horrible realization sinks in, there are still hope left for a future. There are still some houses standing, and not all the green is gone from the fields and former parks among the ruined cities.

[Subject M]

Drewton wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Destroy's no option. After Citadel DLC, EDI's proven synthetics deserve better.

"It’s something turians are taught from birth- If just one survivor is left standing at the end of a war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that’s not going to happen." - Garrus

Would your Shepard have destroyed the Reapers if only the Geth would have survived?

[Subject M]

Rip504 wrote...

Once Shep uploads he/she losses that connection to his/her squad,humanity,and potentially all Organics and the vibrant life we seen in this DlC.

In the sense that he becomes something else (or somehing more) than the man or woman he or she was.
Given the Shepalysts monologue, its clear that he/she/it still have the same values as in "organic life".

[WarGriffin]

mereck7980 wrote...

Gweedotk wrote...

The Reapers are no threat post-synthesis. Their primary purpose- preserve organic life- is has been partially fulfilled. Partially in the context that they no longer have to harvest organic life in order to preserve it, as synthetic and organic life have merged. The Intelligence still exists and understands that the role it must now play is one of mutual cooperation. As an artificial intelligence, it does not have any desires of power or control, there would be no purpose in attacking the synthesized civilizations.

You are assuming that the catalyst wouldn't change in this scenario.  No one can really say what it will do when it has lost its principal reason for existing.  If it no longer needs to "preserve" the balance between organic and synthetic life then what will it do?  How will it play a role in mutual cooperation?  It, along with the reapers, represents a tremendous potential threat to continued existince of the new transorganic galatic civilazation that emerges after the war.  

What if, after a century or so passes, it decides that things aren't progressing in the right way and it decides to "step in"?  It isn't like the catalyst doesn't have a history of taking drastic measures to accomplish its goals...

and We have two examples of the Catalyst doing just that

The Zha'til got hacked by the Reapers so they'd they''d take over the Zha

and the Rachni were turned feral so the Galaxy would develop War mechs/AI. -Got the Krogan instead-

IE the Catalyst is more then willing to force the variables to make what it wants happen.

[CptData]

mereck7980 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...
Ultimately Shepard just becomes another catalyst. Ultimately control solves nothing.

I completely agree with your premise.  Either Shepard retains his invididual personality and gets lost due to a lack of connection to other people (especially his friends and loved ones) or his consciousness becomes more like the catalyst and we are back to square one.  

The first option is a potentially power mad techno god and the second is a cold, calculating sentient.  Both have an incredibly powerful force of reapers at their beck and call.  Trusting in the benevolence of Shepalyst is too much of a risk.  That is why the reapers have to go.  

Yeah. Even a paragon!Shepard-AI might trip one day and become a twisted version of its former self. It's easy as it is. Time -does- some kind of damage to everything and everyone. And who says an AI can't get bored? EDI is the perfect example for an AI that's as real as a real intelligent being, despite being far less advanced than a full Reaper!AI. And she shows signs of being able to enjoy stuff. Therefore I bet she also can get bored by other stuff as well.

Bored Shepard might start the cycle anew. OR, even if s/he's not bored, s/he might realize the cycle -is- necessary for some reasons I can't see right now.

Either way, gone Reapers are better than Shepard-controlled Reapers. At least in my eyes.

[cerberus1701]

Subject M wrote...

Drewton wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Destroy's no option. After Citadel DLC, EDI's proven synthetics deserve better.

"It’s something turians are taught from birth- If just one survivor is left standing at the end of a war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that’s not going to happen." - Garrus

Would your Shepard have destroyed the Reapers if only the Geth would have survived?

If you're suggesting "the Geth or nothing?" I would do that.

[cerberus1701]

Subject M wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Once Shep uploads he/she losses that connection to his/her squad,humanity,and potentially all Organics and the vibrant life we seen in this DlC.

In the sense that he becomes something else (or somehing more) than the man or woman he or she was.
Given the Shepalysts monologue, its clear that he/she/it still have the same values as in "organic life".

Now. There's nothing to suggest that that monologue is anything other than very recent.

[Subject M]

cerberus1701 wrote...

GamerrangerX wrote...

Control is the best ending a paragon control is even better,remember Shepard mind remain intact plus she can creaet a new body,a Control ending will make Shepard have a heavy weight the galaxy affair,all race that fought the reapers will become a council race under a paragon Shepard,the Reapers"Shepard" become a council race and you will have EDI as your personnal advisor and councilor of the NEW AI RACE THE REPAER,

I don't know that this is a long term solution, either.

Part of what makes one human is their connections to others. Even misanthropes like myself who generally dislike most of the human race can't and don't entirely eschew human connection to other people.

What happens after a few hundred years (or a thousand)  with Shepard on the other plane. At some point, with all that power and the majority of your connections to what you were  now dust, at some point shortly thereafter you simply are going to start seeing what's left as a galactic ant colony.

Small things.

Meaningless in the grand scheme.

Tp paraphrase Loki: the boot has no concern for the ant.

Stop being human long enough and it becomes a memory of what you once were, not who you are.

Ultimately Shepard just becomes another catalyst. Ultimately control solves nothing.

Paragon Control is a road towards voluntary synthesis and gradual unification. There is no reason why shepard must be alone. In time others will join (perhaps the LI and others sooner or later might want to go through the same or similar process).

[Subject M]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Once Shep uploads he/she losses that connection to his/her squad,humanity,and potentially all Organics and the vibrant life we seen in this DlC.

In the sense that he becomes something else (or somehing more) than the man or woman he or she was.
Given the Shepalysts monologue, its clear that he/she/it still have the same values as in "organic life".

Now. There's nothing to suggest that that monologue is anything other than very recent.

Clarify.

[Xilizhra]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What happens after a few hundred years (or a thousand) with Shepard on the other plane. At some point, with all that power and the majority of your connections to what you were now dust, at some point shortly thereafter you simply are going to start seeing what's left as a galactic ant colony.

A psychological devolution more likely to take place in solely organic beings, but a synthetic with perfect memory would be able to perfectly remember all connections and use them as a basis for continued empathy.

Perfect memory post control, perhaps. But before that his/her memory would be as fragmented and piecemeal as it is now for the vast majority of people.

If anything, this doesn't strengthen control, it weakens it because that which you remember with perfect clarity would become more "real" than the fragments.

Fragmentation isn't because we have fragmented data, it's because we have fragmented ability to recall it. Upon uploading into the Catalyst, Shepard would be able to recall her entire past life perfectly, in addition to what would come next.

[Subject M]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Drewton wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Destroy's no option. After Citadel DLC, EDI's proven synthetics deserve better.

"It’s something turians are taught from birth- If just one survivor is left standing at the end of a war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that’s not going to happen." - Garrus

Would your Shepard have destroyed the Reapers if only the Geth would have survived?

If you're suggesting "the Geth or nothing?" I would do that.

No. the choice would be:

Destroy: all orgainc life + Reapers destroyed. Geth and EDI Survives (yes they can reconstruct and clone the fried organic tissue and thus "bring back organics to the galaxy".)

Control: same as in ME3 EC

Syntheis: same as in ME3 EC.

[Xandurpein]

I think the whole way the OP motivates his decision highlights why so many people felt the ending to be unsatisfying. He cares about his virtual friends and Shepard's extrnded family. The ending assumed we were more interested in abstract notions on a cosmic scale than the fate of our friends.

[cerberus1701]

Subject M wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Once Shep uploads he/she losses that connection to his/her squad,humanity,and potentially all Organics and the vibrant life we seen in this DlC.

In the sense that he becomes something else (or somehing more) than the man or woman he or she was.
Given the Shepalysts monologue, its clear that he/she/it still have the same values as in "organic life".

Now. There's nothing to suggest that that monologue is anything other than very recent.

Clarify.

There is nothing in the dialogue that suggests that the monologue is from a Shepard who has "ascended" more than a few months or years before.

A Shepard that still has friends and lovers that he/she can "watch over" will be a vastly different one where those are gone and have been gone.

Once Liara is dust, you can start the clock. Once there's nothing down there that the part of the Shepalyst that remembers what it once meant to be Human, slowly, inexorably, the meaning of all of them diminishes.
  

[Subject M]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Once Shep uploads he/she losses that connection to his/her squad,humanity,and potentially all Organics and the vibrant life we seen in this DlC.

In the sense that he becomes something else (or somehing more) than the man or woman he or she was.
Given the Shepalysts monologue, its clear that he/she/it still have the same values as in "organic life".

Now. There's nothing to suggest that that monologue is anything other than very recent.

Clarify.

There is nothing in the dialogue that suggests that the monologue is from a Shepard who has "ascended" more than a few months or years before.

A Shepard that still has friends and lovers that he/she can "watch over" will be a vastly different one where those are gone and have been gone.

Once Liara is dust, you can start the clock. Once there's nothing down there that the part of the Shepalyst that remembers what it once meant to be Human, slowly, inexorably, the meaning of all of them diminishes.
  

"After"  you mean.

What is to say that 1) They will not join him eventually, especially if their own lives are nearing their ends? 2) That Shepalyst does not have perfect memory and can recall everything he remembered when he was made into the catalyst, and everything that happens after that? 3) That the Shepalyst will ever be vatly different.

Nothing.

[Subject M]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think the whole way the OP motivates his decision highlights why so many people felt the ending to be unsatisfying. He cares about his virtual friends and Shepard's extrnded family. The ending assumed we were more interested in abstract notions on a cosmic scale than the fate of our friends.

I think there is truth in your words.

[Subject M]

Rauhel wrote...

I sided with EDI when she wanted to dance with Joker. I wanted her to live as much as she could before she becomes an unfortunate casualty in this awful war. Listening to the Anderson biography logs and interviews only reinforced my belief that Destroy is the only ending. A good leader values the life of his squad above the success of the mission, but knows that the cost failing some missions is greater than the cost of losing that person's life. It's a terrible line to walk. Letting the reapers live is too high of a cost.

Their existance is not a problem in itself. Its when they kill people because, in their analysis, its the only way to save organics from exitinction, then the problems emerge.

As long as the reapers have no reason to continue the harvest or otherwise commit agression/exert  force, they are not a problem for the galactic comunity.