348 réponses à ce sujet

[mereck7980]

Subject M wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Once Shep uploads he/she losses that connection to his/her squad,humanity,and potentially all Organics and the vibrant life we seen in this DlC.

In the sense that he becomes something else (or somehing more) than the man or woman he or she was.
Given the Shepalysts monologue, its clear that he/she/it still have the same values as in "organic life".

Now. There's nothing to suggest that that monologue is anything other than very recent.

Clarify.

There is nothing in the dialogue that suggests that the monologue is from a Shepard who has "ascended" more than a few months or years before.

A Shepard that still has friends and lovers that he/she can "watch over" will be a vastly different one where those are gone and have been gone.

Once Liara is dust, you can start the clock. Once there's nothing down there that the part of the Shepalyst that remembers what it once meant to be Human, slowly, inexorably, the meaning of all of them diminishes.
  

"After"  you mean.

What is to say that 1) They will not join him eventually, especially if their own lives are nearing their ends? 2) That Shepalyst does not have perfect memory and can recall everything he remembered when he was made into the catalyst, and everything that happens after that? 3) That the Shepalyst will ever be vatly different.

Nothing.

You keep referring to them "joining" them.  How would they do that, since there aren't anymore crucible/catalyst/citadel combos lying around for them to use to "uplift" themselves?  You are also assuming that the rest of the squad would approve of Shepard becoming a Reaper God and would want to be a part of that.  Just about every crew member, even EDI and Legion, are repelled by the goals, tactics, and composition of the reapers to say nothing of the rest of your team.  There is a pretty good chance that most of them would want nothing to do with you now.  

And that same sentiment could extend to the rest of galactic civilaztion as a whole. How many people would be willing to "forgive and forget" what happened to to their friends, family, people, and home worlds just becuse Shepard has taken control of the Reapers?  I would wager there would be a tremendous sense of betrayal even though Shepards stops the war.  

[Vilegrim]

Subject M wrote...



Also does that mean you would rally people against any higher power, if such a power was ever discovered or proven to exist?

For myself: Yes ( I do not have the charisma, but I would certainly be arguing for it.) 

[cerberus1701]

Xilizhra wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What happens after a few hundred years (or a thousand) with Shepard on the other plane. At some point, with all that power and the majority of your connections to what you were now dust, at some point shortly thereafter you simply are going to start seeing what's left as a galactic ant colony.

A psychological devolution more likely to take place in solely organic beings, but a synthetic with perfect memory would be able to perfectly remember all connections and use them as a basis for continued empathy.

Perfect memory post control, perhaps. But before that his/her memory would be as fragmented and piecemeal as it is now for the vast majority of people.

If anything, this doesn't strengthen control, it weakens it because that which you remember with perfect clarity would become more "real" than the fragments.

Fragmentation isn't because we have fragmented data, it's because we have fragmented ability to recall it. Upon uploading into the Catalyst, Shepard would be able to recall her entire past life perfectly, in addition to what would come next.

As soon as we hit Singularity and you can prove to me that I can download my consciousness into a mainframe with absolute, down to the quantum level precision, then I'll concede the point.

Until then, you're just wishing and hoping.

Even if that were so, it doesn't matter. Time creates distance and irrelevancy because it just does.

Married 53 years, your wife dies. A horrific, massive psychological loss.

What if you were immortal? What if it's 2013 but you were born in 2200 BCE. Even if you remember her with perfect clarity...you will remember others, too. You will make friends, have new loves. Have children and watch them die.

After a while...it simply matters less. They all will. They will hurt if you dwell on them, but there's just...more life to live. More connections to make.

But if you're sitting for forever inside that ship...making no connections. 

So yeah. "Now" Shep  is different from Shep+ 2000 years. 

Modifié par cerberus1701, 07 mars 2013 - 07:15 .

[Subject M]

mereck7980 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Once Shep uploads he/she losses that connection to his/her squad,humanity,and potentially all Organics and the vibrant life we seen in this DlC.

In the sense that he becomes something else (or somehing more) than the man or woman he or she was.
Given the Shepalysts monologue, its clear that he/she/it still have the same values as in "organic life".

Now. There's nothing to suggest that that monologue is anything other than very recent.

Clarify.

There is nothing in the dialogue that suggests that the monologue is from a Shepard who has "ascended" more than a few months or years before.

A Shepard that still has friends and lovers that he/she can "watch over" will be a vastly different one where those are gone and have been gone.

Once Liara is dust, you can start the clock. Once there's nothing down there that the part of the Shepalyst that remembers what it once meant to be Human, slowly, inexorably, the meaning of all of them diminishes.
  

"After"  you mean.

What is to say that 1) They will not join him eventually, especially if their own lives are nearing their ends? 2) That Shepalyst does not have perfect memory and can recall everything he remembered when he was made into the catalyst, and everything that happens after that? 3) That the Shepalyst will ever be vatly different.

Nothing.

You keep referring to them "joining" them.  How would they do that, since there aren't anymore crucible/catalyst/citadel combos lying around for them to use to "uplift" themselves?  You are also assuming that the rest of the squad would approve of Shepard becoming a Reaper God and would want to be a part of that.  Just about every crew member, even EDI and Legion, are repelled by the goals, tactics, and composition of the reapers to say nothing of the rest of your team.  There is a pretty good chance that most of them would want nothing to do with you now.  

And that same sentiment could extend to the rest of galactic civilaztion as a whole. How many people would be willing to "forgive and forget" what happened to to their friends, family, people, and home worlds just becuse Shepard has taken control of the Reapers?  I would wager there would be a tremendous sense of betrayal even though Shepards stops the war.  

Consider the technological and construction - capabilities of the Reapers as well as what is ledt intact in paragon control.

And How people will react to the Shepalyst will depend on what really happened, how the Sheplayst will act as a guardian of the galaxy over the years and how informed people will be about it. Unfortunately we might never know this.

[LilyasAvalon]

I'm still a destroy fan. In my head, nothing happened to the AIs.

[Subject M]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I'm still a destroy fan. In my head, nothing happened to the AIs.

Generally I would argue that self-deceptions like this is highly undesirable, especially when tied to ethical decisions. But since we are talking about the end off a game, a fictive story that probably will not get any continuation after this point, well, I will give you a break.

[Venom man4]

How will Bioware make a sequel? They can't make 3 totally different games set in the future based on the ending you choose.

[mereck7980]

[quote]Subject M wrote...

Consider the technological and construction - capabilities of the Reapers as well as what is ledt intact in paragon control.

And How people will react to the Shepalyst will depend on what really happened, how the Sheplayst will act as a guardian of the galaxy over the years and how informed people will be about it. Unfortunately we might never know this.

[/quote]

IMHO it isn't simple enough to say that people could support the Shepalyst based solely on how it behaves.  Anyone who has ever lost a loved one to an act of violence will probably tell you that forgiving the perpetrator of that violence is one of the hardest things a person can do.  Extrapolate that to the entire galaxy and I have a hard time seeing all the people (of all races) just forgiving and accepting their new Reaper overlords.  Even if Shepalyst tries to act in a benevolent fashion (which a paragon Shep would most certainly do) I don't see people just laying down arms and accepting this.  It flies in the face of logic and history.  

More realistically there would probably be another war.  You would see sepratist uprisings in most systems, especially the Turians and Krogan, which Shepalyst would have to deal with.  

[/quote]

Modifié par mereck7980, 07 mars 2013 - 07:05 .

[cerberus1701]

Venom man4 wrote...

How will Bioware make a sequel? They can't make 3 totally different games set in the future based on the ending you choose.

A century or so later...galaxy rebuilt...vague mentions of the Reapers, if any at all.

[CaptainCommander]

"If only we you could pacify the Reapers Shepard, we would make you a saint."
Shepard one ups Garrus and turns Shepard into God Shepard Ruler of the Galaxy with infinite power!

[Yeulia]

I don't really know, as I will always be for High EMS Destroy, I can't really say that it makes Control the only right choice. I just think of it like this:

If I were in that situation for the first time, without metagaming or knowing what would happen for sure, and time was ticking (like really ticking, people were dying and I was under THAT pressure) I certainly would go for the option that everyone has emphasized throughout the entire course of events: destroy the reapers. I honestly wouldn't have time to think out the effects of every option especially if the crucible was being fired upon by the opposing side. Especially with Control or Synthesis, people just have a bad connection to these huge capital ships and destroyers floating around especially since not even 10 minutes ago they were firing upon and killing everyone for millions of years. When you see that kind of death, it leaves a sour taste in ones mouth. Shepard/I would have no concrete way of knowing what was true and what was false until it actually happened. I just know that every time the Illusive Man spoke about controlling the reapers he sounded like a raging lunatic, and Saren talking about melding flesh and steal was just ridiculous that there would be no repercussions from that.

In Control, whether paragon or renegade, it's just not Shepard anymore. So saying you can build a Shepard avatar just wounded suit me in this case. Maybe it works for some people, and that is all well and good if you are satisfied with that. But considering how it is not the same Shepard your crew came to know and love, can you imagine the disappointment of your LI and friends when they try to say how happy to see you but you are just a shell of what you once were? Similar to the clone in the DLC, what is the purpose of living if you aren't who everyone thinks you are and you will never live up to that anymore.

Also, in terms of Synthesis, just because it gives someone understanding, doesn't mean people x people, people x synthetics, synthetics x synthetics won't get into disagreements. You can understand someone and still have problems. As long as people are brought up in different environments or situations you can never have full compromise. It's just the nature of how life works. Even nowadays you can have the same race of people, but problems ensue. And if that's the case, what's the point of changing everyone in synthesis? Of course, I can't know that for sure, no one can. But life always finds loopholes and ways to differentiate.

I just think the situation the fanbase finds itself in is sort of funny. If there was just ONE ending with variations of that, this would be a non-issue. Idk, kind of interesting to think of how it could have been. Although, I did love this DLC, it was really good.

wow this was really long, my bad LOL 

Modifié par Yeulia, 07 mars 2013 - 07:41 .

[Subject M]

[quote]mereck7980 wrote...

[quote]Subject M wrote...

Consider the technological and construction - capabilities of the Reapers as well as what is ledt intact in paragon control.

And How people will react to the Shepalyst will depend on what really happened, how the Sheplayst will act as a guardian of the galaxy over the years and how informed people will be about it. Unfortunately we might never know this.

[/quote]

IMHO it isn't simple enough to say that people could support the Shepalyst based solely on how it behaves.  Anyone who has ever lost a loved one to an act of violence will probably tell you that forgiving the perpetrator of that violence is one of the hardest things a person can do.  Extrapolate that to the entire galaxy and I have a hard time seeing all the people (of all races) just forgiving and accepting their new Reaper overlords.  Even if Shepalyst tries to act in a benevolent fashion (which a paragon Shep would most certainly do) I don't see people just laying down arms and accepting this.  It flies in the face of logic and history.  

More realistically there would probably be another war.  You would see sepratist uprisings in most systems, especially the Turians and Krogan, which Shepalyst would have to deal with.  

[/quote]

[/quote]

No doubt the galactic community will bear the scares of what the Reapers did for as long as people who lived during the wars are still around. But hopefully they can find some comfort when receiving the news of Shepard both neutralizing the cause and driving force of the harvest (the catalyst) and now "laying down the law" on the Reapers.

Yes, there might still be people who holds a grudge, but they will either learn to deal with it (by not having anything to do with the Shepalyst reapers) or be taken care of in one way or another if they try and attack the the new Shepalyst faction. A lot of people might not like what happened, but in time I think they will learn to live with it as long as the Shepalyst forces remain a benign force.

Modifié par Subject M, 07 mars 2013 - 08:24 .

[Subject M]

Yeulia wrote...

I don't really know, as I will always be for High EMS Destroy, I can't really say that it makes Control the only right choice. I just think of it like this:

If I were in that situation for the first time, without metagaming or knowing what would happen for sure, and time was ticking (like really ticking, people were dying and I was under THAT pressure) I certainly would go for the option that everyone has emphasized throughout the entire course of events: destroy the reapers. I honestly wouldn't have time to think out the effects of every option especially if the crucible was being fired upon by the opposing side. Especially with Control or Synthesis, people just have a bad connection to these huge capital ships and destroyers floating around especially since not even 10 minutes ago they were firing upon and killing everyone for millions of years. When you see that kind of death, it leaves a sour taste in ones mouth. Shepard/I would have no concrete way of knowing what was true and what was false until it actually happened. I just know that every time the Illusive Man spoke about controlling the reapers he sounded like a raging lunatic, and Saren talking about melding flesh and steal was just ridiculous that there would be no repercussions from that.

In Control, whether paragon or renegade, it's just not Shepard anymore. So saying you can build a Shepard avatar just wounded suit me in this case. Maybe it works for some people, and that is all well and good if you are satisfied with that. But considering how it is not the same Shepard your crew came to know and love, can you imagine the disappointment of your LI and friends when they try to say how happy to see you but you are just a shell of what you once were? Similar to the clone in the DLC, what is the purpose of living if you aren't who everyone thinks you are and you will never live up to that anymore.

Also, in terms of Synthesis, just because it gives someone understanding, doesn't mean people x people, people x synthetics, synthetics x synthetics won't get into disagreements. You can understand someone and still have problems. As long as people are brought up in different environments or situations you can never have full compromise. It's just the nature of how life works. Even nowadays you can have the same race of people, but problems ensue. And if that's the case, what's the point of changing everyone in synthesis? Of course, I can't know that for sure, no one can. But life always finds loopholes and ways to differentiate.

I just think the situation the fanbase finds itself in is sort of funny. If there was just ONE ending with variations of that, this would be a non-issue. Idk, kind of interesting to think of how it could have been. Although, I did love this DLC, it was really good.

wow this was really long, my bad LOL 

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/16159608/5#16162210

[Valo_Soren]

Control is a pretty cool choice but I don't know if the Citadel DLC changes my ending choices as I base mine off the type of person the Shepard I'm currently playing is and how he feels about his friends and LI and his background still. I like how Control allows Shepard to protect the galaxy and how Synthesis allows everyone to be equal but when I play a Renegade its hard not to pick destroy (as to me that seems to be the more viable renegade choice).

[archangel1996]

The second and last time i played ME3 my ending was "Best seats in the house"...best ending

[CosmicGnosis]

You know, one of the leaked scripts suggests that Control is more ideal than Destroy. Of course, it also suggests that Synthesis is more ideal than Control, but the reasoning for Control is rather appealing: Shepard will give the Reapers a new purpose, just as he does in the Extended Cut.

C: And you must decide the form its energy will take.
S: I don’t understand.
C:The energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be destroyed.
C: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.
C: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.
S: And the other choice?
C: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.
S: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
C: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
S: And what happens to me?
C: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.
S: But the Reapers will obey me?
C: Correct.
C: There is another choice.
C: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.
S: Combine?
C: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.
C:If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.
C: We,will become like you, and organic life will become like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.
C: But you must choose.
C: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.
C: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 07 mars 2013 - 09:45 .

[1490]

You can always headcanon it. It would be pretty easy to believe Reaper-Shep could just make a Lazarus Project copy of him/herself with the old Shepard personality and memories as a concession to the crew.

[Auld Wulf]

Subject M wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I'm still a destroy fan. In my head, nothing happened to the AIs.

Generally I would argue that self-deceptions like this is highly undesirable, especially when tied to ethical decisions.

I'd argue that especially because of how this will affect people. I mean, if we're going to headcanon, let's actually headcanon based upon things that happened in the story and what would logically follow on from there.

The Quarians

After Shepard brandished his megapeen and destroyed the geth, the quarians lost their ability to control their suits with such granularity. This lead to a mass infection which wiped out most of the quarian peoples.

The Enhanced

Those who were synthetic enough found that their synthetic aspects were 'removed' just as the Catalyst said they would be. In many cases, people were using these synthetic elements for life support. Beloved family members and friends died in the millions.

Joker

Holding the dead body of EDI in his arms, Joker decided he'd just had enough. Dealing with his illness had become tolerable because of his companion, his love. He'd even begun to see the positives in life. With that gone, he became bitter, and hit the bottle. Soon after, he was found dead from an overdose.

The Leviathans

With no synthetic minds to resist their control, they sent out thralls with orbs amidst the chaos to plant seeds of control. They used the business of the galactic rebuild to mask their efforts, and soon, almost every planet had a control orb present on it.

---

Yup. That's a pretty great ending.

[The Night Mammoth]

I've seen some headcanon during my time on this forum but wow, Auld Wulf's take on the Destroy ending is probably some of the worst.

But hey, if he wants to push some pointless agenda by imagining a baseless and highly unlikely series of events most of which is entirely devoid of fact, that's his prerogative, of course.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 08 mars 2013 - 01:31 .

[cerberus1701]

Subject M wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Drewton wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Destroy's no option. After Citadel DLC, EDI's proven synthetics deserve better.

"It’s something turians are taught from birth- If just one survivor is left standing at the end of a war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that’s not going to happen." - Garrus

Would your Shepard have destroyed the Reapers if only the Geth would have survived?

If you're suggesting "the Geth or nothing?" I would do that.

No. the choice would be:

Destroy: all orgainc life + Reapers destroyed. Geth and EDI Survives (yes they can reconstruct and clone the fried organic tissue and thus "bring back organics to the galaxy".)

Control: same as in ME3 EC

Syntheis: same as in ME3 EC.

If those are my choices, then Control is the lesser evil.

[visionazzery]

Subject M wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I think the whole way the OP motivates his decision highlights why so many people felt the ending to be unsatisfying. He cares about his virtual friends and Shepard's extrnded family. The ending assumed we were more interested in abstract notions on a cosmic scale than the fate of our friends.

I think there is truth in your words.

I can see merit in debate on this topic but I still think topic and premise by op is deeply flawed. And xandurpein explains u xplain very well why op logic is deeply flawed and nonsensical. real decisions in game context influenced Shepard choice there is no projected theology that influences the dlc get with it those of u very few who feel their opinion changes cos of a afterthought dlc.

If anything the debate about cloning and implications of losing control of a clone is mre relevant than control . In the ending. Cloning debate is seperate debate to what op topic mileading us to believe. And anyway u could argue if Cerberus were not so incompetent they destroy the clone.

[FlyinElk212]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think the whole way the OP motivates his decision highlights why so many people felt the ending to be unsatisfying. He cares about his virtual friends and Shepard's extrnded family. The ending assumed we were more interested in abstract notions on a cosmic scale than the fate of our friends.

oh absolutely. Difference is I find the trade off of the endings' consequences acceptable for my little family.

[Chi_Mangetsu]

The fix't Control ending (especially from a Paragon FemShep) is pretty damn awesome anyway.

So cheers.

[FlyinElk212]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

You know, one of the leaked scripts suggests that Control is more ideal than Destroy. Of course, it also suggests that Synthesis is more ideal than Control, but the reasoning for Control is rather appealing: Shepard will give the Reapers a new purpose, just as he does in the Extended Cut.
...
C: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.
S: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
C: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
S: And what happens to me?
C: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.
S: But the Reapers will obey me?
C: Correct.

The bolded words are remnants that are still in the game. It seems like the main change was the incredibly vague "You will lose everything you have". Which seriously, why did that need to be included? All it does is muddle an already confusing idea.