348 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
(Srsly tho Control just makes the Catalyst rewrite itself so it THINKS it's you, ergo still never choosing in my playthroughs.)

Headcanon? From AdmiralCheez???

Srsly in that case, I'mma headcanon my team got away from the Reapers in refuse, and went in stasis pods to KICK THE REAPERS ASS in the next cycle. That Asari at the end's Grandma Liara.

No, really.  Shepard dies in the Control ending, remember?  So the thing controlling the Reapers CAN'T be Shepard, right?

Also, Control speech (paragon version):

"Eternal.  Infinite.  Immortal.  The woman I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.  And only now do I understand the full extent of her sacrifice.  Through her death, I was created.  Through my birth, her thoughts were freed.  They guide me now, give me reason, direction.  Just as she gave direction to those who followed her, the ones who helped her achieve her purpose.  Now, my purpose.  To give the many hope for a future.  To ensure that all have a voice in their future.  The woman I was knew that she could only achieve this by becoming something greater.  There is power in control.  There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy.  I will rebuild what the many have lost.  I will create a future with limitless possibilities.  I will protect and sustain.  I will act as a guardian for the many.  And throughout it all, I will never forget.  I will remember the ones who sacrificed themselves so that the many could survive.  And I will watch over the ones that live on.  Those who carry the memory of the woman I once was.  The woman who gave up her life to become the one who could save the many."

The thingy controlling the Reapers is NOT Shepard.  In addition:

- Creepy usage of "the ones" and "the many" show a detached, non-personal thought process.
- Speaks of direction, reason, and purpose in a notably synthetic tone, as if they were programming parameters.
- Assurance of own superiority, correctness, and duty is quite similar to Reapers.
- Goals and values mentioned in speech don't necessarily line up with what Shepard actually believed.

So yeah, that's my take on it.  Not a lot of data available, but the stuff they gave us puts me ill at ease.

I appreciate your headcanon, however.  Happy ass-kicking in the next cycle, you glorious avatar of vengeance, you.

NOW ENOUGH OF THIS DERAILING.  My point was that MEHEM > canon Control and Destroy as far as preserving the universe goes.  The synthetic genocide may be "more evil," but that doesn't mean that a Reaper dictatorship, even a benevolent one, isn't hella creepy.  Especially when it's not actually Shepard at the helm, you know?

[RiptideX1090]

VintageUtti wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

MattFini wrote...

Control....

After Jack tells me that she'll yank me out of a pile of rubble at the "ass-end of this war"?

No.

Jack says that?

Tali's went something like:

Shepard: We threw one hell of a party. Probably the last one.

Tali: No. No, you'll find a way to do what's best for all of us.

I took this to imply Destroy, though Jack's is clearly far more so. I wonder what the other LI's say...

Kaidan: You will find a way to win. I know it. And when you do, I'll be waiting.

If I ever play the ending again (which I may not after finding this DLC a proper goodbye), I'm still picking Destroy.

And it looks like Miranda says the exact same thing as Kaiden.

Think maybe our LIs are trying to tell us something?

[What a Succulent Ass]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Girl, bye. The DLC makes low EMS destroy the only option. It's the only way to restore everyone's honour after all that secondhand embarrassment.

LMAO

God damnit. You win, Random Jerkface. Discussion over

You can't tell me it's not the truth doe.

[FlyinElk212]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So yeah, that's my take on it.  Not a lot of data available, but the stuff they gave us puts me ill at ease.

I appreciate your headcanon, however.  Happy ass-kicking in the next cycle, you glorious avatar of vengeance, you.

NOW ENOUGH OF THIS DERAILING.  My point was that MEHEM > canon Control and Destroy as far as preserving the universe goes.  The synthetic genocide may be "more evil," but that doesn't mean that a Reaper dictatorship, even a benevolent one, isn't hella creepy.  Especially when it's not actually Shepard at the helm, you know?

Haha, that IS true. Control Shep does come off as that weird hobo stalker on the bus that's somehow always on the same bus you are. Rangled voice and all.

And yeaaaaahhhh...technically, Citadel DLC makes MEHEM the only choice now. Once production values are upped on that mod I doubt I'll ever look back. 'LEST MY GRAMMY-LIARA-LED REFUSAL MOD OF MY DREAMS COMES OUT!!

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Headcanon? From AdmiralCheez???

Srsly in that case, I'mma headcanon my team got away from the Reapers in refuse, and went in stasis pods to KICK THE REAPERS ASS in the next cycle. That Asari at the end's Grandma Liara.
No, really.  Shepard dies in the Control ending, remember?  So the thing controlling the Reapers CAN'T be Shepard, right?

Also, Control speech (paragon version):

"Eternal.  Infinite.  Immortal.  The woman I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.  And only now do I understand the full extent of her sacrifice.  Through her death, I was created.  Through my birth, her thoughts were freed.  They guide me now, give me reason, direction.  Just as she gave direction to those who followed her, the ones who helped her achieve her purpose.  Now, my purpose.  To give the many hope for a future.  To ensure that all have a voice in their future.  The woman I was knew that she could only achieve this by becoming something greater.  There is power in control.  There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy.  I will rebuild what the many have lost.  I will create a future with limitless possibilities.  I will protect and sustain.  I will act as a guardian for the many.  And throughout it all, I will never forget.  I will remember the ones who sacrificed themselves so that the many could survive.  And I will watch over the ones that live on.  Those who carry the memory of the woman I once was.  The woman who gave up her life to become the one who could save the many."

I do not see how these prove that the new entity in the control ending is not Shepard. There are quite a few "The (wo)man I was..." which for me implies a sense of continuation.  As I see it, Shepard is still Shepard, but he has also become so much more.

I honestly think this is another case of Bioware being ambigious on purpose, you are free to interpretate this speech in whatever way you want, so feel free to disagree with me.

Also, on an unrelated note, Cheez.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 06 mars 2013 - 05:42 .

[AdmiralCheez]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Haha, that IS true. Control Shep does come off as that weird hobo stalker on the bus that's somehow always on the same bus you are. Rangled voice and all.

"I'm tellin' ya, I'm the ONE, kiddo!  I'm here to protect the many, you know?  Give 'em a future!  Got five bucks?"

And yeaaaaahhhh...technically, Citadel DLC makes MEHEM the only choice now. Once production values are upped on that mod I doubt I'll ever look back. 'LEST MY GRAMMY-LIARA-LED REFUSAL MOD OF MY DREAMS COMES OUT!!

With all the glitchy animations and so-so cutscenes in the vanilla ending, MEHEM's lack of polish never bothered me much.

In the event that your dreams come true, I will have no choice but to download both mods... provided yours has a playable segment where awakened Shepard and Javik argue about whose cycle failed harder.

[Kel Riever]

Random Jerkface wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Girl, bye. The DLC makes low EMS destroy the only option. It's the only way to restore everyone's honour after all that secondhand embarrassment.

LMAO

God damnit. You win, Random Jerkface. Discussion over

You can't tell me it's not the truth doe.

[Siripho]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Because there's no way in hell I'm changing the galaxy . Over my dead body after seeing this DLC.

I've totally fallen in love with my little family I've created. The squadmates of past and future have combine to create some of the tightest friend units I have ever seen. Not only do they prove that this galaxy is worth saving as it is, but the comradery and cooperation of different races proves that there IS hope for this version of the galaxy's future, with little to no Reaper influence along the way.

Destroy's no option. After Citadel DLC, EDI's proven synthetics deserve better.
Synthesis's no option. After Citadel DLC, I can't alter galactic status quo when this one can prove to be civil and stable.
And don't even get me started on Refuse.

So I used to be an avid Destroy fan. But after seeing this DLC, I don't think I'll ever choose anything other than Control. If sacrificing my life means I'll be able to keep this version of the galaxy in tact, then my sacrifice will be worth it. If not for the galaxy, then for my little family I've created.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I am currently halfway through ME2 with a new cannon Shepard (she's still paragon but is now a vanguard rather than an infiltrator) and had been stuck as to whether to go with Destroy (the 'good' option) or refuse (the, in my opinion, realistic Shepard option) but I shall now be choosing Paragon Control.

You are so right that after Citadel the gang can't just die and Control now seems far more moral than it did.

Now I just have to change my plans and start a romance with someone (anyone!) in order to avoid the horror of waking up next to a four-eyed ancient after the party again!

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

I do not see how these prove that the new entity in the control ending is not Shepard. There are quite a few "The (wo)man I was..." which for me implies a sense of continuation.  As I see it, Shepard is still Shepard, but he has also become so much more.

I honestly think this is another case of Bioware being ambigious on purpose, you are free to interpretate this speech in whatever way you want, so feel free to disagree with me.

It's definitely intentional ambiguity, but the more ambiguous something is, the more room there is for unpleasant implications.  (It can also, you know, be a sign of lazy writing, just saiyan.)

Yes, Shepardlyst shares at least some continuity with its creator (memories, mostly).  It's the "so much more" that's disconcerting.  (No, Shepard, you ARE the Reapers!)

Also, on an unrelated note, Cheez.

Is this... legit?

Because I...  I should go.

*flys to Edmonton, storms up to the Bioware reception desk and slaps a stack of money on the counter*

[Xerxes52]

KefkaGestahl wrote...

Shepard was on a mission to destroy the reapers. EDI knew that she could die in the process of doing that, and even changed her programming to allow for self-sacrifice. Given the circumstances, I think she would be fine if Shepard chose destroy. The fleet was being blown to bits and you're expected to believe what this pop-up tells you about the control and synthesis options. Hell, the geth might even understand why Shepard did what he did, especially if he always treated the geth with respect.

Pretty much this. My Shepard's goal has always been to destroy the Reapers. While he's a almost entirely a Paragon, he's still willing to make the sacrifices necessary to save the galaxy. It weighs heavily on him, but that's the burden of being a leader.

[CronoDragoon]

I am amazed how civil this thread has remained. Citadel DLC really has gotten people in a good mood.

[cerberus1701]

The Citadel DLC makes Control the ONLY choice (For you)

Fixed.

[Lisa_H]

Destroy is still the only option for me. Yes, I truly feel sorry for EDI. But I don't want my Shepard becoming some big reaper consciousness. And I feel even more after the citadel DLC that after all she has done, my shepard deserves to live a normal life with her friends and LI

[FlyinElk212]

Siripho wrote...
You are so right that after Citadel the gang can't just die and Control now seems far more moral than it did.

Now I just have to change my plans and start a romance with someone (anyone!) in order to avoid the horror of waking up next to a four-eyed ancient after the party again!

! Still can't believe that's actually a possibility. How does this happen, no romance, & party hardy?? Makes me wonder if there's others "Oh sh**!!" wake-up moment possibilities hidden in this DLC...

And as far as a romance that makes sense w/ a Paragon Control Shep, amazingly enough, Thane romance is starting to come out on top. That way, Thane & Shep reunite in the afterlife, and no one gets (sexfully) left behind.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 06 mars 2013 - 06:03 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
It's definitely intentional ambiguity, but the more ambiguous something is, the more room there is for unpleasant implications.  (It can also, you know, be a sign of lazy writing, just saiyan.)

Never argued that, but it is not the subject of the discussion.

Yes, Shepardlyst shares at least some continuity with its creator (memories, mostly).  It's the "so much more" that's disconcerting.  (No, Shepard, you ARE the Reapers!)

And why is that?

Is this... legit?

Because I...  I should go.

*flys to Edmonton, storms up to the Bioware reception desk and slaps a stack of money on the counter*

Apparently it is. All that is necessary for Javik to use his mojo on Femshep. is to have her not be in a relationship, have the party get wild enough and then the (space)magic happens.

[Subject M]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Control is a good option, however that reason doesn't make it better than Synthesis.  Citadel DLC doesn't prove that synthetics  won't eventually rebel and attempt to kill all organics.  ContolShep would probably be able to prevent that from happening, but for how long?

It makes Control better than Synthesis not because of the final result, but because of the implications of SELECTING that choice to begin with.

Choosing Control supposes that this galaxy, in its current form, has the capacity to solve it's own problems. They just need a big-ass Reaper police to keep baddies in check.

Choosing Synthesis supposes that this galaxy, in its current form, does NOT have the capacity to solve it's own problems, not without Reaper restructuring of every galactic lifeform.

So again, in my mind, Control is the only option. Not so much for the outcome, but because CHOOSING Synthesis feels like a betrayal to the little family I've created. "Hey guys. Even though we're all buddy buddy and have done so much together, Iiiiii don't think we can solve this problem by ourselves. We need Reaper magic. Sorry!"

I agree that Paragon-Control is the gentlest form of ending as it not only:

1) Allows the Shepalyst to assume a non-aggression stance the reapers should have assumed in the first place (As an advising and helping force, only intervening with military might to stop attempts at mass murder and genocides) but also

2) Gives the galaxy the tools to undergo voluntary synthesis as the know-how and technological base for such a feat is maintained. So, if one likes synthesis, but dislikes it being forced, control actually seems like a better option if one is willing to wait and have a more gradual process.

[MattFini]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Think maybe our LIs are trying to tell us something?

This is as clear as BW can make it that, should you choose Destroy, it will all work out. 

I wish they could've SHOWED it. And, in retrosect, they probably wish they HAD as it would've saved them A LOT of headaches.

But, I read this as a massive gesutre of peace on their part. 

And I already made peace with the EC, but this makes it even better. 

Still not perfect but ... honestly, they DO listen to their fans. This whole damn DLC is all the evidence one could ever need. 

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

i totally blew up the geth because i wanted all reapers dead.  even edi.

i dont even care i do what i want im commander shepard.

[Strangewrex]

Poor choice of Title, but at least you've put some effort into making a decent thread based on your own opinion. That being said, I'm still more likely to Shoot that pipe since Mind-Melting Alien Robots generally aren't a good thing for anyone around them even IF they're being controlled by a genuinely good person.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

And why is that?

Well, how many alterations can you make to the something before it stops being that thing?  Shepardlyst is an AI with Shepard's memories and motivations (kinda), right?  But what happens when you take a person's ideals and experiences, attach them to a program with a million times the processing power, then strip away all the squishy bits?  No biological juices = no emotions = no empathy or attachment (unless Shepardlyst has some sort of like/dislike feedback programming like EDI).

So really, when it comes right down to it, all you've done is given the Catalyst a new name and mandate.

Apparently it is. All that is necessary for Javik to use his mojo on Femshep. is to have her not be in a relationship, have the party get wild enough and then the (space)magic happens.

That requires passing up both Garrus AND Traynor...

Hm.  Perhaps I'll just leave that little bit of sexual tension unresolved.

[MattFini]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

i totally blew up the geth because i wanted all reapers dead.  even edi.

i dont even care i do what i want im commander shepard.

WIN. 

[FlyinElk212]

Strangewrex wrote...

Poor choice of Title, but at least you've put some effort into making a decent thread based on your own opinion. That being said, I'm still more likely to Shoot that pipe since Mind-Melting Alien Robots generally aren't a good thing for anyone around them even IF they're being controlled by a genuinely good person.

lol, to be fair to my naming skills, I purposely named it this WITH THE INTENTION of stirring the fanboy rage crockpot. Thoroughly.

[Kastrenzo]

I'm still Nuking the reapers.

[cerberus1701]

MattFini wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Think maybe our LIs are trying to tell us something?

This is as clear as BW can make it that, should you choose Destroy, it will all work out. 

I wish they could've SHOWED it. And, in retrosect, they probably wish they HAD as it would've saved them A LOT of headaches.

But, I read this as a massive gesutre of peace on their part. 

And I already made peace with the EC, but this makes it even better. 

Still not perfect but ... honestly, they DO listen to their fans. This whole damn DLC is all the evidence one could ever need. 

I agree, especially with your last sentence...Citadel DLC is literally nothing BUT 4GB of fanservice.

Funny, sweet, awesome fanservice.  

[christrek1982]

BleedingUranium wrote...

ReaperShep is even less Shepard than CloneShep.

this it's an AI self aware yes but has nothing that makes it human.