17 réponses à ce sujet

[zaarin_2003]

Hi

One of my favourite tactics in Baldur's Gate was to lure enemies to a doorway and then surround the doorway, to only allow one or two to enter the room, thus creating a choke point.

In Dragon Age enemies seem to be able to slip through the tightest of gaps, making it impossible to do the above, or to protect my mage for example.

Anyone else having an issue with this?

Any plans on a patch?

Great game otherwise!

Thanks

Matt

[Sir Kerm]

I haven't had success doing that either. I just freeze them all once they come out of the doorway.

[knownastherat]

It is not always the case

img696.imageshack.us/img696/3479/buttin.jpg

there are places where only one or two enter, though there are places where they get through as you describe.

Glyph of Repulsion on such spots, or immobilizing traps or freeze as it was mentioned. The chocke does not have to be bulletproof, it will still bunch mobs together and reduce the number of threats gaining tactical advantage.

[CptPatch]

A Stealthed Rogue can obstruct a doorway, but not entirely block it. Enemies _always_ manage to squeeze by, eventually.



The best you can reasonably hope for is to slow down the enemy advance. (Which is sometimes enough to allow you to repeatedly fight them at 3-to-1 odds instead of 4-to-horde odds all at once.)

[phordicus]

it was a design decision re: clipping vs pathing. it won't be patched.

[zaarin_2003]

What do you mean, clipping vs pathing?

Baldur's Gate managed it.

Do you mean to say that, in pathing terms, if the game were to consider each character to be a solid object as wide as their selection circle (let's say), then things like animations wouldn't look as good?

I'd prefer the improved gameplay and tactics it would bring.

[Akimb0]

zaarin_2003 wrote...

What do you mean, clipping vs pathing?

Baldur's Gate managed it.

Do you mean to say that, in pathing terms, if the game were to consider each character to be a solid object as wide as their selection circle (let's say), then things like animations wouldn't look as good?

I'd prefer the improved gameplay and tactics it would bring.

I think he means you'd end up with them running towards the door, then away, then back, then away etc. because their pathing is trying to find a route, but the only route is blocked.

[wwwwowwww]

Been one of my biggest frustrations with the game actually. I for one loved to use this technique to create an advantage against the masses, but alas it's not possible in DOA, so I have resorted to luring them to the door and Cone of colding them

[zaarin_2003]

Akimb0 wrote...

zaarin_2003 wrote...

What do you mean, clipping vs pathing?

Baldur's Gate managed it.

Do you mean to say that, in pathing terms, if the game were to consider each character to be a solid object as wide as their selection circle (let's say), then things like animations wouldn't look as good?

I'd prefer the improved gameplay and tactics it would bring.

I think he means you'd end up with them running towards the door, then away, then back, then away etc. because their pathing is trying to find a route, but the only route is blocked.

I see what you mean. But again, BG... 11 years ago... had pathing and it worked. If a friendly character found itself blocked by an enemy, it attacked (as they do if they suddenly find an enemy with them now). If an enemy is blocked on the way to attacking someone, it chooses another target, casts a spell, pulls out a bow, or without those options, it waits in line.

I fail to see how modern AI would be so confused, if it wasn't back in 1998.

[Lord Phoebus]

zaarin_2003 wrote...

Akimb0 wrote...

zaarin_2003 wrote...

What do you mean, clipping vs pathing?

Baldur's Gate managed it.

Do you mean to say that, in pathing terms, if the game were to consider each character to be a solid object as wide as their selection circle (let's say), then things like animations wouldn't look as good?

I'd prefer the improved gameplay and tactics it would bring.

I think he means you'd end up with them running towards the door, then away, then back, then away etc. because their pathing is trying to find a route, but the only route is blocked.

I see what you mean. But again, BG... 11 years ago... had pathing and it worked. If a friendly character found itself blocked by an enemy, it attacked (as they do if they suddenly find an enemy with them now). If an enemy is blocked on the way to attacking someone, it chooses another target, casts a spell, pulls out a bow, or without those options, it waits in line.

I fail to see how modern AI would be so confused, if it wasn't back in 1998.

You make the assumption that AI has gotten smarter in video games.  It hasn't, the resources have gone towards graphics and sound to the extent of sucking them from AI and gameplay.  There are some genres that have invested in AI but RPGs aren't one of them.  I think those mid to late 90s games were the pinacle of video game AI for quite a few genres  (E.g. I don't think I've played a flight simulator that matched the AI of X-Wing Vs. Tie Fighter).  

[zaarin_2003]

You're right, I did make that assumption! I agree with you... but still find it difficult to believe they couldn't just use or improve some of the old BG ai. Resources may be gobbled up by graphics nowadays, but I don't believe that after all the Dragon Age graphics is computed our Core 2 and i7 processors would have so little power left they would struggle with some late 1990's AI code which needs to be dumbed down so our pcs can cope.

Modifié par zaarin_2003, 13 janvier 2010 - 12:30 .

[Akimb0]

zaarin_2003 wrote...

Akimb0 wrote...

zaarin_2003 wrote...

What do you mean, clipping vs pathing?

Baldur's Gate managed it.

Do you mean to say that, in pathing terms, if the game were to consider each character to be a solid object as wide as their selection circle (let's say), then things like animations wouldn't look as good?

I'd prefer the improved gameplay and tactics it would bring.

I think he means you'd end up with them running towards the door, then away, then back, then away etc. because their pathing is trying to find a route, but the only route is blocked.

I see what you mean. But again, BG... 11 years ago... had pathing and it worked. If a friendly character found itself blocked by an enemy, it attacked (as they do if they suddenly find an enemy with them now). If an enemy is blocked on the way to attacking someone, it chooses another target, casts a spell, pulls out a bow, or without those options, it waits in line.

I fail to see how modern AI would be so confused, if it wasn't back in 1998.

That's some mighty fine rose tinted spectacles you have there. The Pathing in BG was awful, which is why the enemies would just jam up behind each other in one doorway. I'm pretty sure they could of had the enemy draw bows in DA, but they had to make the game easy for console users. So it didn't happen.

Anyway, if you keep the aggro properly with your tank, then you can still jam them in doorways, it's just that they can slip through. Which I don't really mind so much, since it stops too much abuse of doorways. (Diablo 1 anyone?)

[KilrB]

First enemy into the doorway gets "Crushing Prison".



That will stack 'em up for you.



Works on those three drakes in the narrow passage too.

[ArathWoeeye]

And honestly, blocking doorways didn't bring strategy, it brought cheesy-ness. It's not like people are solid Tetris blocks. It's completely realistic that one can slip near others and it's possible to block vs/with larger creatures, I believe.

[flagondotcom]

I'd be okay with "bad guy mobs can always push past my carefully positioned NPCs" as long as the reverse was also true. But it's not.



Even better: I entered the Broodmother chamber while Leliana had a ranger pet (wolf) summoned. The wolf ended up on the wrong side of a set of tentacles, and was unable to join the battle. I had to release him--meanwhile if that was a bad guy mob they'd just have mysteriously been able to push past anything I put in their way (other than a glyph or another mob who was frozen/petrified.)

[phordicus]

yeah, sorry. clipping/pathing is a standard dichotomy in game design. it's not just about getting stuck or X number of travel nodes, though. it also involves targeting, line of sight, and anything else that relies on physical boundaries.



for the record, vanilla BG had some poor AI, too. most mage scripts were, at most, about 200 lines of code uncompiled. in contrast, when i rewrote a script for an 8th level mage to optimally use his spells in generic combat, it was well over 1500. so yeah, the capabilities for smart AI are there, the devs just typically don't have the time to optimize everything.

[Klystron]

BG drove me nuts when trying to get a party of 6 turned around in a narrow corridor. I much prefer the current situation.

[Sarevok Anchev]

The Glyph of Repulösion does here the trick.

You can let 2-3 enemies through and cast the spell behind them, so that you divide their masses.



I personally would have appreciated obstacle-parameters for models AND the D&D 3rd ed. "Attack of Opportunity". With the flanking this would have made REAL tactical depth!