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Let's make a prediction: AIU/Repair Matrix NERF for next week, a goodbye to the iWin character..


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#226
Original Twigman

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etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some
1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

I like the definition of balance from point 1. The goal here is to keep variety and viability of kits. If point 2 is incorrect and you can, in fact have for all intents and purposes, infinite medigel that would be disrupt the game (like the inf+krysae). Unlimited medigels alone would be enough to disrupt the game balance alone but she also gets incredibly high damage output to boot. I don't see how she doesn't have unlimited medigel. all you have to do is make it to an ammo box. Any ammo box at all. Even without a movement bonus this is not asking much of even a casual player. "Here, you can have game genie unlimited lives and all you have to do is hit an ammo box. But only 1 kit gets this ability. Nobody else gets it." Does this sound fair and balanced? I'm deliberately trying to avoid hyperbole but I do mean that besides synch kills (to which every class is vulnerable. Balanced) she is unkillable so long as she can make it to an ammo box. The only other time Ive managed to be killed is via staggerlock upon getting up (usually collectors. Cheap sons o' guns). 


it was difficult to read that block of text but i got the meaning..

again, it doesn't so matter how much medi-gel a player has at their disposal... what matters is their ability to utilize that medi gel...

so the point goes

Bad player: cannot utilize the medi-gel well
Medium player: sometimes can and sometimes misses utilizing it (it benefits these guys the most in terms of learning)
High Players: Don't need to utilize all that medi-gel

I don't really feel like reiterating the supporting points, examples, etc. But the cliffs should be enough to differentiate the perspective you brought up and the one i did

#227
Teothehun

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Well, if I had to take a guess, they'd probably nerf its status as a "grenade". Either to make it non-affected by grenade-increasing equipment bonuses, or by changing it to a cooldown-based ability in such a way that you had to choose between either cloak or repair matrix.

#228
xtorma

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RedJohn wrote...

I must say that some people here haven't realized skill =/= knowledge.


Knowledge is an element of skill isn't it?

#229
stormrider1012

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Original Stikman wrote...

Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some

1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

Those are just a few. Then there are rebuttals toward the more minutea details such as assessing the risk-to-reward ratio, synergy of powers, her allowing lower-skilled players access to higher difficulties... but the ones i numbered are the main foundational rebuttals


1. This is actually a fair point but given the AIU is fairly new, majority of the playerbase probably don't have them yet so it may be to early to say if it will or will not dominate the "metagame"
2. But you seem to be only focusing on the "unlimited revives". The RM also gives you speed boost, DR and shield regen. The utility of those buffs are pretty straightforward already to any player. Don't you think packing an instant revive on top of those is a bit over the top?
3. By that logic nothing is OP. Infinite cobra missiles are clearly OP but I've seen people still fail with those. The thing is RM is not the only thing going for AIU. She already has TC with a shotgun dmg evo, drell speed, shadowlike dodge, quick heavy melee, a prime-everything tech debuff that goes through walls and a turian level fitness tree. I'm guessing its the combination of those plus the insta-reviving RM that's causing the nerf calls.

Just to be clear, I'm totally neutral to the AIU nerf. I'm just fairly curious to hear both sides.

#230
Original Twigman

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stormrider1012 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some

1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

Those are just a few. Then there are rebuttals toward the more minutea details such as assessing the risk-to-reward ratio, synergy of powers, her allowing lower-skilled players access to higher difficulties... but the ones i numbered are the main foundational rebuttals


1. This is actually a fair point but given the AIU is fairly new, majority of the playerbase probably don't have them yet so it may be to early to say if it will or will not dominate the "metagame"
2. But you seem to be only focusing on the "unlimited revives". The RM also gives you speed boost, DR and shield regen. The utility of those buffs are pretty straightforward already to any player. Don't you think packing an instant revive on top of those is a bit over the top?
3. By that logic nothing is OP. Infinite cobra missiles are clearly OP but I've seen people still fail with those. The thing is RM is not the only thing going for AIU. She already has TC with a shotgun dmg evo, drell speed, shadowlike dodge, quick heavy melee, a prime-everything tech debuff that goes through walls and a turian level fitness tree. I'm guessing its the combination of those plus the insta-reviving RM that's causing the nerf calls.

Just to be clear, I'm totally neutral to the AIU nerf. I'm just fairly curious to hear both sides.


2. I addressed those minutea details in the last half of that post and don't really feel like addressing them again as I have. If you were to take away the instant revive of RM, then the meta-game impact would be less of an issue (i believe)... so its not fundamental to the stance

3. you did the same thing redjohn did and that is to misread/misinterpret what i wrote.

unlimited revives = / = mission accomplished... I didn't say anything about being OP and extracting. The statement should be taken literally. Giving a player unlimited revives on any character doesn't guarantee they will extract. This is more of a rebuttal to the "i win" argument. In order to "win" you actualyl have to extract, and revivng, while helpful, does not guarantee that

#231
robarcool

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I hope it doesn't get Krysaed. I don't play the kit and I have stopped caring whether it should be nerfed or not.

#232
TeamLexana

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Original Stikman wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

Must be a pc thing cuz I rarely see anyone play a GI in random lobbies. I got freinds who use the GI but they don't use the Harrier on him.


you have no friends!!!!

Image IPB


Hurr. Hurr. Hurr. Opps, did I just toss Stick a kick vote? My finger slipped. Promise. Image IPB

#233
etm125

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Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some
1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

I like the definition of balance from point 1. The goal here is to keep variety and viability of kits. If point 2 is incorrect and you can, in fact have for all intents and purposes, infinite medigel that would be disrupt the game (like the inf+krysae). Unlimited medigels alone would be enough to disrupt the game balance alone but she also gets incredibly high damage output to boot. I don't see how she doesn't have unlimited medigel. all you have to do is make it to an ammo box. Any ammo box at all. Even without a movement bonus this is not asking much of even a casual player. "Here, you can have game genie unlimited lives and all you have to do is hit an ammo box. But only 1 kit gets this ability. Nobody else gets it." Does this sound fair and balanced? I'm deliberately trying to avoid hyperbole but I do mean that besides synch kills (to which every class is vulnerable. Balanced) she is unkillable so long as she can make it to an ammo box. The only other time Ive managed to be killed is via staggerlock upon getting up (usually collectors. Cheap sons o' guns). 


it was difficult to read that block of text but i got the meaning..

again, it doesn't so matter how much medi-gel a player has at their disposal... what matters is their ability to utilize that medi gel...

so the point goes

Bad player: cannot utilize the medi-gel well
Medium player: sometimes can and sometimes misses utilizing it (it benefits these guys the most in terms of learning)
High Players: Don't need to utilize all that medi-gel

I don't really feel like reiterating the supporting points, examples, etc. But the cliffs should be enough to differentiate the perspective you brought up and the one i did


Sorry for the block of text. It's incredibly difficult to work with forums on a tablet.

But it does matter how much medi-gel a player has. Besides objective waves there are literally 2 things you have to do in Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer: 1 Do damage 2 Stay alive long enough to do enough damage.

EDI has number 2 all wrapped up in a nice lil bow easy peasy. All that's left is number 1 -- and she's got plenty of that to go around. It's no longer "Does our team have enough skill, luck, resources, etc to beat this foe on this difficulty?" because EDI will just....get back up. Again and again. It just becomes "If things go badly how much boredom and solo watching can we endure before we ask for mercy?"

How much medi-gel you get is potentially meta game breaking.

#234
xtorma

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Any nerf they impose that is not an elimination of the revive portion of repair matrix will be nothing but a big box of tissues BW is throwing out there so people won't drown in thier mothers basement.

#235
Happy Shepard

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Yes, kit balance is clearly dependant on individual player skill. It seems to be more about how one utilizes the kit than how it actually compares to other kits. Krysae GI says hi.

There were missile glitchers failing to extract ffs. Of course you have to be able to run to the ammo box and press the button.

Same as if somebody would say Grenade Capacity Gear is OP. Would you respond: "But how many really use it? And it's really, really hard for all the dummies out there to scroll down, read the ****ing explanation and equip it. I mean, some aren't even using any gear people."

#236
RedJohn

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xtorma wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

I must say that some people here haven't realized skill =/= knowledge.


Knowledge is an element of skill isn't it?


Not really, skill is something that you can have without knowledge, you can see that example here with player A and player B having the same knowledge of the game but player A takes all the advantages he knows quicker than player B.

#237
shming

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My guess the nerf will be a massive duration nerf. As it stands now I can zip across the map picking up grenades along the way and keep it active almost indefinitely. Honestly if you're good with using soft cover, shield regen or damage reduction nerf will have a small impact on the way you play.




Game play of me using AIU in pugs and keeping repair matrix active almost the whole game. Duration is definitely an issue.

#238
Pavs719

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All I can say on this matter is, it should be left alone, which wont happen because of all the W*****s on here asking for nerfs. I give up literally, you all wont be happy until everything is nerfed beyond the point that multiplayer will cease.

#239
killdozer9211

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Annomander wrote...

killdozer9211 wrote...

Repair matrix has a bad habit of not working and has to be activated at the right time.

Meanwhile vorcha constantly regenerate health and volus can give themselves shield gate constantly.
Somehow no one ever makes posts about how unfair it is to have unlimited ops packs.

RM is only different because getting up from being down is somehow seemingly a more drastic change in state as opposed to recovering shieldgate with a 2 second recharge or refilling your health from a few seconds of taking cover.

Anyone who thinks there's a difference is an easily impressed simpleton.


Wrong.

Vorcha health regen doesn't help once you are health gated; next attack kills you regardless of regen.

Shield boost gives invincibility frames on host reliably, off-host you RARELY get the invincibility frames. Shield boost does NOT reset the cooldown of shield gate, is heavily affected by lag (delayed cast, no I-Frames).

Volus do not have 80% damage TC, 25% shotgun damage and the SF debuff though, do they? They also do not gain the passives the AIU has.

The difference is, the vorcha and the volus require smart play and hosting to perform exceptionally and in both cases neither have the damage ouput that the AIU has, and only the volus have comparable survivability (while on host only).

The AIU has Insane damage, and survivability, with no drawback whatsoever. The AIU doesn't need to take cover; as dying is not an issue whatsoever. Dying IS an isue with the 2 other examples you mentioned.

As for the last part: "I'm going to insult anyone who disagrees, or has empirical evidence to prove my argument falacious"; proves how little in the way of a meaningful contribution you have to make.

It's getting nerfed, stop crying. If you're good enough a player, you don't need repair matrix (or stim packs, or the kroguard) to babysit you through a gold game.


A volus adept can put out 45% exexpose over a 3 meter radius instantaneously with biotic orbs, stacked with the expose from stasis, an extra 50%, bringing him up to a 95% damage increase. Spec his passive for weapons damage and he gets 22.5 extra weapon damage, so all together, that's about 117.5% damage boost to whatever weapon he might be using, compared to the 130% weapon damage increase of TC + shotgun + weap passive for the AIU? (We'll assume this is an unarmored taget if you want to bring in SF debuff, otherwise I'll begrudgingly cede you that, it's a miniscule point, not every enemy in the game is armored.) Plus the shield boost hands out invincibility frames when used under controllable circumstances, and meanwhile, repair matrix doesn't even revive reliably?

So she can dish out a staggering 12.5% extra damage than a volus? Oh, that hardly seems fair. /sarcasm.

Meanwhile, rolly-polly-volly over there fits nicely behind most cover, doesn't need an ammo box to refill his healing ability, and his two melee abilities that are much more useful than the AIU's melee's on either gold or plat. Not only that, but on the occassion that he does somehow manage to go down, because his ability affects him and allies in the same cast, someone can instantly get him up without fear because they've been getting invicibility frames and shields restored constantly.

If the AIU is an "I win" Button, the Volus is a  "We Win." Button. 

So why don't you cry for a nerf to shield boost while we're at it?

Now let's look at the vorcha.

Vorcha regen is a passive, so you're always regenerating health, meaning if you're staying in cover like a good AIU, you don't have to pay as much attention to when to turn on your regen ability, you just have to take a break from firing and you're back to full health after a few seconds.

Not only this, but any kills scored while using this power can give you up to a 15% weapon or power damage boost, something neither repair matrix or shield boost offers. While not as signifigant as the debuff from the volus adept, or the damage buff with the AIU, it can still mean as much as a 42.5% weapon damage buff when combined with his passive. So he loses signifigant damage bonuses the other two get, but he makes up for it by having a regen power he only has to turn on once per game. An alternative to this build though includes a power damage build, in which his flamer can have as much as a 50% damage boost and another 50% damage towards armor, still not as much a boost as either the AIU or Volus, but more DPS than either could put out under thetime alotted for their debuffs/buff.

The vorcha engineer, meanwhile, gets a 50% power damage bonus from his passive, in addition to the 50% extra DOT from incinerate, along with either the extra 100% damage to a frozen or chilled target from, say, cryo ammo, or 50% damage to an armored target, for comparison to the AIU vs Snap Freeze targets, which would only be debuffed if they were armored, and even then, only by 25%.

So there you have it. Three kits, each with comparable survivability and comparable damage output. No one is any more superior to the other two. AIU is fine.

#240
Original Twigman

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Happy Shepard wrote...

Yes, kit balance is clearly dependant on individual player skill. It seems to be more about how one utilizes the kit than how it actually compares to other kits. Krysae GI says hi. 


You mistaken kit balance with meta game balance.

Krysae GI (or any infil + krysae) needed to be balanced because massive amounts of players were using it over other options.

Kit balance is another story.

#241
Original Twigman

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etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some
1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

I like the definition of balance from point 1. The goal here is to keep variety and viability of kits. If point 2 is incorrect and you can, in fact have for all intents and purposes, infinite medigel that would be disrupt the game (like the inf+krysae). Unlimited medigels alone would be enough to disrupt the game balance alone but she also gets incredibly high damage output to boot. I don't see how she doesn't have unlimited medigel. all you have to do is make it to an ammo box. Any ammo box at all. Even without a movement bonus this is not asking much of even a casual player. "Here, you can have game genie unlimited lives and all you have to do is hit an ammo box. But only 1 kit gets this ability. Nobody else gets it." Does this sound fair and balanced? I'm deliberately trying to avoid hyperbole but I do mean that besides synch kills (to which every class is vulnerable. Balanced) she is unkillable so long as she can make it to an ammo box. The only other time Ive managed to be killed is via staggerlock upon getting up (usually collectors. Cheap sons o' guns). 


it was difficult to read that block of text but i got the meaning..

again, it doesn't so matter how much medi-gel a player has at their disposal... what matters is their ability to utilize that medi gel...

so the point goes

Bad player: cannot utilize the medi-gel well
Medium player: sometimes can and sometimes misses utilizing it (it benefits these guys the most in terms of learning)
High Players: Don't need to utilize all that medi-gel

I don't really feel like reiterating the supporting points, examples, etc. But the cliffs should be enough to differentiate the perspective you brought up and the one i did


Sorry for the block of text. It's incredibly difficult to work with forums on a tablet.

But it does matter how much medi-gel a player has. Besides objective waves there are literally 2 things you have to do in Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer: 1 Do damage 2 Stay alive long enough to do enough damage.

How much medi-gel you get is potentially meta game breaking.


Yes, amount matters, just not as much as a players ability to utilize it. You describe a player being able to utilize it to do damage. With more medi-gel you have an increased chance of doing more... that doesn't mean people are going to use it.

Potentially game-breaking? yes.... is it game-breaking now? no (in reference to my 1st cliff)

#242
E71

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RedJohn wrote...
...
Also, yes I love this character :D


No you don't... otherwise you would have kept your mouth shut.

#243
Original Twigman

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killdozer9211 wrote...

Annomander wrote...

killdozer9211 wrote...

Repair matrix has a bad habit of not working and has to be activated at the right time.

Meanwhile vorcha constantly regenerate health and volus can give themselves shield gate constantly.
Somehow no one ever makes posts about how unfair it is to have unlimited ops packs.

RM is only different because getting up from being down is somehow seemingly a more drastic change in state as opposed to recovering shieldgate with a 2 second recharge or refilling your health from a few seconds of taking cover.

Anyone who thinks there's a difference is an easily impressed simpleton.


Wrong.

Vorcha health regen doesn't help once you are health gated; next attack kills you regardless of regen.

Shield boost gives invincibility frames on host reliably, off-host you RARELY get the invincibility frames. Shield boost does NOT reset the cooldown of shield gate, is heavily affected by lag (delayed cast, no I-Frames).

Volus do not have 80% damage TC, 25% shotgun damage and the SF debuff though, do they? They also do not gain the passives the AIU has.

The difference is, the vorcha and the volus require smart play and hosting to perform exceptionally and in both cases neither have the damage ouput that the AIU has, and only the volus have comparable survivability (while on host only).

The AIU has Insane damage, and survivability, with no drawback whatsoever. The AIU doesn't need to take cover; as dying is not an issue whatsoever. Dying IS an isue with the 2 other examples you mentioned.

As for the last part: "I'm going to insult anyone who disagrees, or has empirical evidence to prove my argument falacious"; proves how little in the way of a meaningful contribution you have to make.

It's getting nerfed, stop crying. If you're good enough a player, you don't need repair matrix (or stim packs, or the kroguard) to babysit you through a gold game.


*snip*


I know you are trying dude, but you just compared the vorch hunter to the AIU in terms of damage output which completely destroys any sort of credibility.

Some of your arguments have potential they are just misguided and you are bringing analogies to the wrong aspects of the character....

In summary: your evidence doesn't support your overall point.

#244
samb

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I love how the OP just elects himself the representative of the players.
The end of MP is nigh. The last DLC was released, the weekend challenges are also coming to an end, no more patches are planned. Maybe BW just wanted to go out with a bang? Maybe they wanted to give newcomers a toon that could excel to level out the power creep?

My hope is that BW just gets fed up with all the whining and doesn't do anything. God that would be refreshing.

#245
xtorma

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RedJohn wrote...

xtorma wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

I must say that some people here haven't realized skill =/= knowledge.


Knowledge is an element of skill isn't it?


Not really, skill is something that you can have without knowledge, you can see that example here with player A and player B having the same knowledge of the game but player A takes all the advantages he knows quicker than player B.



As I said , knowledge is an "element" of skill.

Talent + knowledge  = skill IMO.

How many companies hire engineers with no degree. A 10 year engineer with the same level of talent as a 1st year engineer is going to have a higher level of skill.

I would agree with you if you would have said "knowledge is not the only element of skill"

#246
stormrider1012

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Original Stikman wrote...

2. I addressed those minutea details in the last half of that post and don't really feel like addressing them again as I have. If you were to take away the instant revive of RM, then the meta-game impact would be less of an issue (i believe)... so its not fundamental to the stance

3. you did the same thing redjohn did and that is to misread/misinterpret what i wrote.

unlimited revives = / = mission accomplished... I didn't say anything about being OP and extracting. The statement should be taken literally. Giving a player unlimited revives on any character doesn't guarantee they will extract. This is more of a rebuttal to the "i win" argument. In order to "win" you actualyl have to extract, and revivng, while helpful, does not guarantee that


Well I don't exactly agree on the "I Win" argument as well but the point still applies. Are you saying we should only consider a power for tweaking if it guarantees extraction?

But you seem to be just focusing on the RM insta-revive as point of argument. The AIU skillset is not just the RM. Its the entire collection of her advantages (excellent survivability + infiltrator damage output) which I think is causing the issue. The RM just takes most of the heat probably because its her signature power. If this power was given to say, an engineer instead, I doubt the OP calls would be so loud.

#247
Pavs719

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samb wrote...

I love how the OP just elects himself the representative of the players.


This, who the hell does he think he is.

#248
Josh182

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people are beating plat in what? less than 8 minutes now? But yes, nerf repair matrix, its breaking the game

lol at thread

#249
Mrthom1478

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just make it so when you fall youy don't instant revive

but don't change anything cause there is no need for nerfs in a co-op game

#250
Mrthom1478

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and it isn't breaking the game