329 réponses à ce sujet

[USIncorp0]

Pavs719 wrote...

USIncorp0 wrote...

Pavs719 wrote...

Commander Castillo wrote...

Alright I'll just go ahead and say it.
REDJOHN GET A ******* LIFE

I could not have said it any better, he gets my back up, causing all this crap on the forums. 

People here are trying to have a serious discussion.
If you don't agree with what the OP is saying, or what the other people are saying...
Please leave.

Wont say it but go to hell mate, I can voice my opinion here to yeah.

You are doing so in an offensive way, one that is not focused around the discussion, but rather your personal feelings around the OP, but I digress, if you just want to be a jerk then be that way. You don't have to hate or get offended by people when all they are doing is voicing their opinions and looking for others. RJ has a right to voice his opinions, he has done nothing to deserve you and others attempting to beat him down because you don't agree with his views.

[Kittstalkur]

I'll just keep playing an even more ridiculous kit that I play almost identically -- the QMI.

[N7 Tigger]

I'm usually against ANY kind of nerf. But as I have no use or need for the revives here's what I'd like to see. And I'd call it a buff.

20% Movement Speed
20% Damage Reduction
20% Reduction in Shield Rechatge Delay
While active shields regen while cloaked

There. It now REPAIRS rather than performs miracles.

Seriously, I've used this chick 12 times on gold and only revived once. At the moment it's only use is a speed boost for delivering the pizza.

[etm125]

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some
1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

I like the definition of balance from point 1. The goal here is to keep variety and viability of kits. If point 2 is incorrect and you can, in fact have for all intents and purposes, infinite medigel that would be disrupt the game (like the inf+krysae). Unlimited medigels alone would be enough to disrupt the game balance alone but she also gets incredibly high damage output to boot. I don't see how she doesn't have unlimited medigel. all you have to do is make it to an ammo box. Any ammo box at all. Even without a movement bonus this is not asking much of even a casual player. "Here, you can have game genie unlimited lives and all you have to do is hit an ammo box. But only 1 kit gets this ability. Nobody else gets it." Does this sound fair and balanced? I'm deliberately trying to avoid hyperbole but I do mean that besides synch kills (to which every class is vulnerable. Balanced) she is unkillable so long as she can make it to an ammo box. The only other time Ive managed to be killed is via staggerlock upon getting up (usually collectors. Cheap sons o' guns). 

it was difficult to read that block of text but i got the meaning..

again, it doesn't so matter how much medi-gel a player has at their disposal... what matters is their ability to utilize that medi gel...

so the point goes

Bad player: cannot utilize the medi-gel well
Medium player: sometimes can and sometimes misses utilizing it (it benefits these guys the most in terms of learning)
High Players: Don't need to utilize all that medi-gel

I don't really feel like reiterating the supporting points, examples, etc. But the cliffs should be enough to differentiate the perspective you brought up and the one i did

Sorry for the block of text. It's incredibly difficult to work with forums on a tablet.

But it does matter how much medi-gel a player has. Besides objective waves there are literally 2 things you have to do in Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer: 1 Do damage 2 Stay alive long enough to do enough damage.

How much medi-gel you get is potentially meta game breaking.

Yes, amount matters, just not as much as a players ability to utilize it. You describe a player being able to utilize it to do damage. With more medi-gel you have an increased chance of doing more... that doesn't mean people are going to use it.

Potentially game-breaking? yes.... is it game-breaking now? no (in reference to my 1st cliff)

Ok, so if we have number 1 and number 2 (damage and survival), you're saying if players (we'll say some nebulous number of players but enough to get the sense that it is a lot of the playerbase) utilize the power/kit then it becomes overpowered and in need of balancing?

I'm saying EDI offers practically unlimited #2, so you would also make the analogous argument that a kit/power with potentially unlimited #1 (damage) would also not be overpowered until it is utilized by a lot of players? So you would be ok with a kit that shoots cobra missiles if only a handful of people used it? Of course not. I don't mean to be absurd or make the overinflated missile glitching argument but if your criteria for overpowered is significant use by the playerbase then any theoretical kit is acceptable so long as a lot of players don't use it.

I don't want to make a strawman for your argument but that is how it seems.

[ISHYGDDT]

At least all this sexbot hate means the GI is safe from being BSN's whipping boy for the forseeable future.  That's what really matters.

Modifié par ISHYGDDT, 07 mars 2013 - 03:12 .

[ZiRK]

ISHYGDDT wrote...

At least all this sexbot hate means the GI is safe from being BSN's whipping boy for the forseeable future.  That's what really matters.

This^, ultra cheese mode must not be changed. I love my ridiculous damage and wall hacks.

[Original Twigman]

etm125 wrote...

Ok, so if we have number 1 and number 2 (damage and survival), you're saying if players (we'll say some nebulous number of players but enough to get the sense that it is a lot of the playerbase) utilize the power/kit then it becomes overpowered and in need of balancing?

I'm saying EDI offers practically unlimited #2, so you would also make the analogous argument that a kit/power with potentially unlimited #1 (damage) would also not be overpowered until it is utilized by a lot of players? So you would be ok with a kit that shoots cobra missiles if only a handful of people used it? Of course not. I don't mean to be absurd or make the overinflated missile glitching argument but if your criteria for overpowered is significant use by the playerbase then any theoretical kit is acceptable so long as a lot of players don't use it.

I don't want to make a strawman for your argument but that is how it seems.

Well.. you are creating stawmen...

You are blending "a lot of players using" vs. "a single feature dominating the meta-game." They are seperate concepts. A lot of people use the harrier, but that doesn't necessarily mean it dominates the meta-game. When something dominates the meta-game it effects how the game is played not so much how you play the game.

You are also clumping an aspect (damage and survivability) that has more to do with the "micro game" (how you play the game) than the meta-game, so adding this feature into the argument only muddles it further.

You have to distinguish the two before you can address one.

An example of how EDI would impact the meta-game (below):

Quick Match generates the following lobbies

Lobby 1 Gold
AIU
AIU
AIU

Lobby 2 Gold
AIU
TS
AIU

Lobby 3 Platinum
GJ
AIU
AIU

etc. etc.

Notice, this has nothing to do with how you, yourself play the game, but more to do with how the game is now being played (mostly by infiltrators)

Like missile glitching, you yourself may not be missile glitching/changing the way you play, but having a missile glitcher in the lobby changes how the game is played.

It would be even further game-breaking if those AIU used a specific setup nearly all the time on a specific map and enemy.

So, in summary, you can argue "well you practically have infinite medi-gel...." but it comes down to whether or not that medi-gel is causing the game to be played differently.... which as of now it isn't.

Modifié par Original Stikman, 07 mars 2013 - 03:59 .

[ZiRK]

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Ok, so if we have number 1 and number 2 (damage and survival), you're saying if players (we'll say some nebulous number of players but enough to get the sense that it is a lot of the playerbase) utilize the power/kit then it becomes overpowered and in need of balancing?

I'm saying EDI offers practically unlimited #2, so you would also make the analogous argument that a kit/power with potentially unlimited #1 (damage) would also not be overpowered until it is utilized by a lot of players? So you would be ok with a kit that shoots cobra missiles if only a handful of people used it? Of course not. I don't mean to be absurd or make the overinflated missile glitching argument but if your criteria for overpowered is significant use by the playerbase then any theoretical kit is acceptable so long as a lot of players don't use it.

I don't want to make a strawman for your argument but that is how it seems.

Well.. you are creating stawmen...

You are blending "a lot of players using" vs. "a single feature dominating the meta-game." They are seperate concepts. A lot of people use the harrier, but that doesn't necessarily mean it dominates the meta-game. When something dominates the meta-game it effects how the game is played not so much how you play the game.

You are also clumping an aspect (damage and survivability) that has more to do with the "micro game" (how you play the game) than the meta-game, so adding this feature into the argument only muddles it further.

You have to distinguish the two before you can address one.

An example of how EDI would impact the meta-game:

Quick Match generates the following lobbies

Lobby 1 Gold
AIU
AIU
AIU

Lobby 2 Gold
AIU
TS
AIU

Lobby 3 Platinum
GJ
AIU
AIU

etc. etc.

Notice, this has nothing to do with how you, yourself play the game, but more to do with how the game is now being played (mostly by infiltrators)

Like missile glitching, you yourself may not be missile glitching/changing the way you play, but having a missile glitcher in the lobby changes how the game is played.

It would be even further game-breaking if those AIU used a specific setup nearly all the time on a specific map and enemy.

So, in summary, you can argue "well you practically have infinite medi-gel...." but it comes down to whether or not that medi-gel is causing the game to be played differently.... which as of now it isn't.

What platform do you play on? I rarely see more than 1 infil in a gold lobby, if at all. Its all Destroyers/Krentinals/Male Quarian nade spamming for me on PC.

Or 2 Geth Jugganaughts , always in pairs of 2's lol.

[Original Twigman]

Mr SeVerS wrote...

What platform do you play on? I rarely see more than 1 infil in a gold lobby, if at all. Its all Destroyers/Krentinals/Male Quarian nade spamming for me on PC.

Or 2 Geth Jugganaughts , always in pairs of 2's lol.

xbox...

the lobbys i highlighted were an example of what would be cause to call AIU overpowered/game-breaking

[Ash J. Williams]

I really would prefer it not to be nerfed.

I came last on Gold as a AIU but first on a platinum match then the very next platinum match I came second from the bottom. I still die like other people, I feel more overpowered as a Kroguard than the AIU. Its got a unique skillset which offers something fresh in the MP. If its nerfed badly I might not use it very often or at least not nearly as much as I do now (which is probably due to it being a new character more than anything).

If it has to be nerfed then I guess nerfing duration down to 10sec sounds about right, maybe damage reduction reduced a little but I don't think it should be negative. Speed needs to be left alone.

Modifié par Ash J. Williams, 07 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[RedJohn]

The lack of argument of some people is so big that the only thing they can do is a personal attack :/


That talk very bad about those people.

[Original Twigman]

RedJohn wrote...

The lack of argument of some people is so big that the only thing they can do is a personal attack :/


That talk very bad about those people.

it is unfortunate. What is even worse is when there are well-reasoned rebuttals that are responded with strawmen. Then those that create strawmen pretend that the rebuttal never occured and continue acting as though they are right.

[RedJohn]

Original Stikman wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

The lack of argument of some people is so big that the only thing they can do is a personal attack :/


That talk very bad about those people.

it is unfortunate. What is even worse is when there are well-reasoned rebuttals that are responded with strawmen. Then those that create strawmen pretend that the rebuttal never occured and continue acting as though they are right.

Indeed, even if I am not agree with you I wouldn't ever tell you to get a life lol

[RedJohn]

Ash J. Williams wrote...

I really would prefer it not to be nerfed.

I came last on Gold as a AIU but first on a platinum match then the very next platinum match I came second from the bottom. I still die like other people, I feel more overpowered as a Kroguard than the AIU. Its got a unique skillset which offers something fresh in the MP. If its nerfed badly I might not use it very often or at least not nearly as much as I do now (which is probably due to it being a new character more than anything).

If it has to be nerfed then I guess nerfing duration down to 10sec sounds about right, maybe damage reduction reduced a little but I don't think it should be negative. Speed needs to be left alone.

I'm curious, were you talking about survivability or damage output?

[Original Twigman]

RedJohn wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

The lack of argument of some people is so big that the only thing they can do is a personal attack :/


That talk very bad about those people.

it is unfortunate. What is even worse is when there are well-reasoned rebuttals that are responded with strawmen. Then those that create strawmen pretend that the rebuttal never occured and continue acting as though they are right.

Indeed, even if I am not agree with you I wouldn't ever tell you to get a life lol

[RedJohn]

eh, do you know it was an example right? xD

[RedJohn]

Mr SeVerS wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

At least all this sexbot hate means the GI is safe from being BSN's whipping boy for the forseeable future.  That's what really matters.

This^, ultra cheese mode must not be changed. I love my ridiculous damage and wall hacks.

But the GI is fine :happy:

[Eur3ka7]

for me i really dont care if it gets nerfed. The instant revive of rm can be a godsend or be a pain in the ass. I got sync killed bunch of times because i was around a banshee or phantoms etc when i got revived. With rm you get no choice when to be revived. So if they do remove the instant revive dont matter much to me. I have my medigel to help out. Since with medigel i get a choice on when to be revived, when there is no banshee or any insta kill enemies.

Modifié par Eur3ka7, 07 mars 2013 - 05:04 .

[Original Twigman]

RedJohn wrote...

eh, do you know it was an example right? xD

I know redjohn... I just don't think you understood my post

[me0120]

Original Stikman wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

eh, do you know it was an example right? xD

I know redjohn... I just don't think you understood my post

What have I missed?

[etm125]

Original Stikman wrote...
Yes, amount matters, just not as much as a players ability to utilize it. You describe a player being able to utilize it to do damage. With more medi-gel you have an increased chance of doing more... that doesn't mean people are going to use it.

etm125 wrote...
Ok, so if we have number 1 and number 2 (damage and survival), you're saying if players (we'll say some nebulous number of players but enough to get the sense that it is a lot of the playerbase) utilize the power/kit then it becomes overpowered and in need of balancing?

Original Stikman wrote...
Well.. you are creating a stawman here...

An example of how EDI would impact the meta-game (below):
Quick Match generates the following lobbies
Lobby 1 Gold
AIU
AIU
AIU

Lobby 2 Gold
AIU
TS
AIU

Lobby 3 Platinum
GJ
AIU
AIU
etc. etc.

Stik your example looks exactly like what I said: A lot of the playerbase utilizing a certain overpowered kit.

Original Stikman wrote...
So, in summary, you can argue "well you practically have infinite medi-gel...." but it comes down to whether or not that medi-gel is causing the game to be played differently.... which as of now it isn't.

Rest of post:

You want to separate what youve called micro-game from a meta-game and say im confusing the two. Micro game seems to be points,powers, weapons, etc. Meta-game seems to be how the game, in general, is played. Example seems to be kit selection in lobby.

I contend they are not separable. If some power/kit becomes clearly out of balance with the rest, it will show in kit selection in lobbies and how the game is played.

Youre saying you dont care if a kit is clearly superior, so long as it doesnt interfere with you playing the game as is (inf+krysae disrupted this by reducing number of enemies able to be killed and thus your gameplay?).

Im saying a semblance of balance amongst kits and powers should be a positive thing to strive for whether it affects gameplay and/or kit selection or not.

If your main point is "it hasn't drastically altered my gameplay and my lobbies aren't flooded with them yet" then why are you against an RM balance in the micro game? If you only care about the general gameplay why do you care if RM lasts 25 seconds or 8? We seem to be concerned with 2 different levels of balance here.

[Mindfane]

Why cant you just leave her alone. After the DLC, I encountered more Juggernauts and Warlords than EDIBot.

From my experience, the popularity of Reckoning kits are
Warlord.Juggernaut>EDI.Cabal>>>>Talon

So I don't see why a nerf is necessary. The only use of EDI Bot is for solo runs which in no way affect someone else's experience.

[Josh182]

having a max pre-dlc manifest is a bigger "iWin" than the aiu or any other kit will ever be

Nerf your manifest and about 600 of those hours played and then see how much of an "iWin" she is.

Not everyone who plays has plans to do so for a frikin year+, and those who do, are not gonna sit around playing the same character/weapon over and over again. The only people who would do that dont have plans on playing long anyways since the game obviously isnt fun enough for them to explore other characters. Just thought id mention that before someone tried posting another brilliant theory on how nerfing adds longevity to the game.

My friend only plays 1-2 games a week, its nice that the aiu can revive him now instead of me having to do it. I could care less if it teaches him bad habits because with the little amount of time he plays hes never going to be good anyways so who cares?

Doesnt matter, its getting nerfed regardless, the maxed manifest club wins again.

[Original Twigman]

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
Well.. you are creating a stawman here...

An example of how EDI would impact the meta-game (below):
Quick Match generates the following lobbies
Lobby 1 Gold
AIU
AIU
AIU

Lobby 2 Gold
AIU
TS
AIU

Lobby 3 Platinum
GJ
AIU
AIU
etc. etc.

Stik your example looks exactly like what I said: A lot of the playerbase utilizing a certain overpowered kit.

... again, its not just "a lot of players" using an "overpowered" kit ... its that a specific feature is dominating the game, which makes it overpowered... It is not overpowered, unless it dominates the meta-game....

Rest of post:

You want to separate what youve called micro-game from a meta-game and say im confusing the two. Micro game seems to be points,powers, weapons, etc. Meta-game seems to be how the game, in general, is played. Example seems to be kit selection in lobby.

I contend they are not separable. If some power/kit becomes clearly out of balance with the rest, it will show in kit selection in lobbies and how the game is played. 

no... they are seperable.

the GI is clearly in a league of its own compared to the n7 shadow, human engineer, or volus sentinel, yet you won't see a bunch of GIs in a public lobby. You assume that "strong kit" = will show  in lobby... but this isn't the case.

Youre saying you dont care if a kit is clearly superior, so long as it doesnt interfere with you playing the game as is (inf+krysae disrupted this by reducing number of enemies able to be killed and thus your gameplay?).

A kit that is more powerful kit won't disrupt the meta-game unless it changes the way the game is played... a better example is how many Quick Match lobbies were FBW/G/G... it took the game from being a mobile first person, to a camping, lolfest, that trivialized the difficulty and utilized a feature of the game not intended to be used so frequently (over the cover grabs & Stationary gameplay). The Krysea + Inf, trivialized the difficulty with 4 players using the exact same combo.

If your main point is "it hasn't drastically altered my gameplay and my lobbies aren't flooded with them yet" then why are you against an RM balance in the micro game? If you only care about the general gameplay why do you care if RM lasts 25 seconds or 8? We seem to be concerned with 2 different levels of balance here.

the same could be said for anyone on the other side... if it hasn't drastically altered the meta-game, why do people care? Rio/Reapers drastically changes platinum. Missile glitching drastically changes any difficulty... etc. etc. The AIU? No, it does not drastically change the game, at the moment. So why would someone care if she gets nerfed? The possibility of her being a game-breaker?

Modifié par Original Stikman, 07 mars 2013 - 06:15 .

[Feneckus]

I've been seeing more and more lolbots lately.

Shortly after the DLC came out, it was mostly Talons/Juggernauts. Now my previous four PUGs had at least one lolbot.

I hope it's not gonna be a new trend.