329 réponses à ce sujet

[killdozer9211]

Repair matrix has a bad habit of not working and has to be activated at the right time.

Meanwhile vorcha constantly regenerate health and volus can give themselves shield gate constantly.
Somehow no one ever makes posts about how unfair it is to have unlimited ops packs.

RM is only different because getting up from being down is somehow seemingly a more drastic change in state as opposed to recovering shieldgate with a 2 second recharge or refilling your health from a few seconds of taking cover.

Anyone who thinks there's a difference is an easily impressed simpleton.

[stormrider1012]

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

there have been plenty of well grounded arguments, you obviously haven't read them or are cherry-picking if you think those are the only ones

I've been reading and posting in these threads for a week (I think we all need a better hobby) and the only post Ive read that comes close to a counter argument was from Cyonan about the invincibility frames from certain power combinations and shield boosting offering something close to the invulnerability of EDI. Kroguard with a reegar, volus, etc. Every other one Ive come across dodges a discussion of the balance of powers and game mechanics. "If you dont like it dont play it". Dodging the motion again. "This game is dying anyway, let it be". No mechanics. "Its a co-op game nothing is overpowered"! Dodging, dodging, dodging. 

Yeah... cherry picking...

There have been plenty

Just sincerely asking so if you would humor me.. Like what? I'm really interested to see a proper rebuttal.

[etm125]

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
there have been plenty of well grounded arguments, you obviously haven't read them or are cherry-picking if you think those are the only ones

I've been reading and posting in these threads for a week (I think we all need a better hobby) and the only post Ive read that comes close to a counter argument was from Cyonan about the invincibility frames from certain power combinations and shield boosting offering something close to the invulnerability of EDI. Kroguard with a reegar, volus, etc. Every other one Ive come across dodges a discussion of the balance of powers and game mechanics. "If you dont like it dont play it". Dodging the motion again. "This game is dying anyway, let it be". No mechanics. "Its a co-op game nothing is overpowered"! Dodging, dodging, dodging. 

Yeah... cherry picking...
There have been plenty

Disagree, but we're not actually going to change each others' opinions are we? That kind of makes me wonder if any internet forum discussion has ever changed anyone's mind on a subject. This is all most likely a complete waste of our time. 

[BridgeBurner]

killdozer9211 wrote...

Repair matrix has a bad habit of not working and has to be activated at the right time.

Meanwhile vorcha constantly regenerate health and volus can give themselves shield gate constantly.
Somehow no one ever makes posts about how unfair it is to have unlimited ops packs.

RM is only different because getting up from being down is somehow seemingly a more drastic change in state as opposed to recovering shieldgate with a 2 second recharge or refilling your health from a few seconds of taking cover.

Anyone who thinks there's a difference is an easily impressed simpleton.

Wrong.

Vorcha health regen doesn't help once you are health gated; next attack kills you regardless of regen.

Shield boost gives invincibility frames on host reliably, off-host you RARELY get the invincibility frames. Shield boost does NOT reset the cooldown of shield gate, is heavily affected by lag (delayed cast, no I-Frames).

Volus do not have 80% damage TC, 25% shotgun damage and the SF debuff though, do they? They also do not gain the passives the AIU has.

The difference is, the vorcha and the volus require smart play and hosting to perform exceptionally and in both cases neither have the damage ouput that the AIU has, and only the volus have comparable survivability (while on host only).

The AIU has Insane damage, and survivability, with no drawback whatsoever. The AIU doesn't need to take cover; as dying is not an issue whatsoever. Dying IS an isue with the 2 other examples you mentioned.

As for the last part: "I'm going to insult anyone who disagrees, or has empirical evidence to prove my argument falacious"; proves how little in the way of a meaningful contribution you have to make.

It's getting nerfed, stop crying. If you're good enough a player, you don't need repair matrix (or stim packs, or the kroguard) to babysit you through a gold game.

Modifié par Annomander, 07 mars 2013 - 12:41 .

[silverignika]

And I still haven't unlocked it yet...

[Original Twigman]

stormrider1012 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

there have been plenty of well grounded arguments, you obviously haven't read them or are cherry-picking if you think those are the only ones

I've been reading and posting in these threads for a week (I think we all need a better hobby) and the only post Ive read that comes close to a counter argument was from Cyonan about the invincibility frames from certain power combinations and shield boosting offering something close to the invulnerability of EDI. Kroguard with a reegar, volus, etc. Every other one Ive come across dodges a discussion of the balance of powers and game mechanics. "If you dont like it dont play it". Dodging the motion again. "This game is dying anyway, let it be". No mechanics. "Its a co-op game nothing is overpowered"! Dodging, dodging, dodging. 

Yeah... cherry picking...

There have been plenty

Just sincerely asking so if you would humor me.. Like what? I'm really interested to see a proper rebuttal.

Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some

1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.

2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)

3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

Those are just a few. Then there are rebuttals toward the more minutea details such as assessing the risk-to-reward ratio, synergy of powers, her allowing lower-skilled players access to higher difficulties, or how she just "can stand there and soak up damage"... alot of the rebuttals get caught answering hyperbole (check ammonder's post above)... but the ones i numbered are the main foundational rebuttals.

2nd edit: if you look at the post ammonder is responding to, this is an analogy that can work, but is executed poorly and in parts, incorrectly in order to prove a point.

Modifié par Original Stikman, 07 mars 2013 - 12:49 .

[RedJohn]

Vorchas don't have damage reduction or good speedbonus


Tell me something BSN.

What do you think it would be the worst Nerf tthat can be done to Repair Matrix?

Of course, having in mind that we are not vgetting any patch.

[RedJohn]

Stickman, but by that definition then nothing would be really OP, because nothing grants a mission accomplished

[BridgeBurner]

Original Stikman wrote...

stormrider1012 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

there have been plenty of well grounded arguments, you obviously haven't read them or are cherry-picking if you think those are the only ones

I've been reading and posting in these threads for a week (I think we all need a better hobby) and the only post Ive read that comes close to a counter argument was from Cyonan about the invincibility frames from certain power combinations and shield boosting offering something close to the invulnerability of EDI. Kroguard with a reegar, volus, etc. Every other one Ive come across dodges a discussion of the balance of powers and game mechanics. "If you dont like it dont play it". Dodging the motion again. "This game is dying anyway, let it be". No mechanics. "Its a co-op game nothing is overpowered"! Dodging, dodging, dodging. 

Yeah... cherry picking...

There have been plenty

Just sincerely asking so if you would humor me.. Like what? I'm really interested to see a proper rebuttal.

Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some

1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

Those are just a few. Then there are rebuttals toward the more minutea details such as assessing the risk-to-reward ratio, synergy of powers, her allowing lower-skilled players access to higher difficulties... but the ones i numbered are the main foundational rebuttals

A good player won't need those infinity revives, though, will they?

How exactly does one "utilise" a revive well? Providing you are back on your feet, it's utilised well....

The AIU becomes dominant when people realise there is no point in playing anything else, as they get better damage and better survivability from playing it than they do anything else. Just like why there are more TGI+harriers than anything else in gold. Other than variety; and nerfing something to ensure variety and balance is perfectly acceptable for me.

[Lord Rosario]

RedJohn wrote...

Vorchas don't have damage reduction or good speedbonus


Tell me something BSN.

What do you think it would be the worst Nerf tthat can be done to Repair Matrix?

Of course, having in mind that we are not vgetting any patch.

Lowering the speedbonus I think would be the worst possible. Doesn't effect the 'problem' and it would ****** a lot of people off needlessly. It's the most fun part about that power, I think, and the least op part. So, that would be the worse possible nerf. Simply because it wouldn't make any sense.

[Original Twigman]

RedJohn wrote...

Stickman, but by that definition then nothing would be really OP, because nothing grants a mission accomplished

you are making a strawman... I didn't say OP = mission accomplished...

I said overused features (like firebase white/geth/gold) are OP...

Then i said "unlimited revives" =/= Mission accomplished.

You misread

[TeamLexana]

RedJohn wrote...

Vorchas don't have damage reduction or good speedbonus


Tell me something BSN.

What do you think it would be the worst Nerf tthat can be done to Repair Matrix?

Of course, having in mind that we are not vgetting any patch.

Just what I said earlier. Since I don't think the Jesus Grenade element can be removed/limited without a patch, seems like the worst they could do is lessen the other bonuses such as duration, speed, and sheild regen which would only result in AUI hogging even more grenades out of the boxes from other players and pissing off even more people.

[ScrubJay]

Duration nerf just means people will go around stealing my grenades.

A proper fix would require a patch, and that's not coming. It needs a cooldown, or just have the revive be set to a percentage rather than a guarantee.

[XPERIA_Z]

/inb4anotherredjohnthread

Cool prediction bro..

The only thing that makes the AIU unique is her repair matrix. Without
that, you have a close-range kit with NO survivability except tactical
cloak. Bioware did not even give this kit a chance with ranged without
equipment, 6b TC is shotgun damage....

Without repair matrix the
AIU is useless IMO. Close range kits need some kind of survivability,
Cabal has her Biotic Focus, every other vanguard has barriers restored
on charge, N7 Paladin has that shield, Krogan have a **** ton of shields
and some HP regen, Vorcha's have MASSIVE HP regen, and the Geth
Juggernaut has a melee that restores shields. Wtf are you going to give
the AIU except Repair Matrix? Snap Freeze is in there and it won't stop
enemies with Armor/Shields.

Complainers need to stop whining and figure out how to build kits before they talk.

[Happy Shepard]

Lord Rosario wrote...

Happy Shepard wrote...

dream3873 wrote...

I honestly only saw people dying with this character. I never really saw anybody use it as a "I win button".

And i saw people never dying with this character. I never really saw anybody failing at it.

"I win".

Yes. The character is op because you get right back up after being killed, yet, you see people never dying? Hrmm.. Very interesting.

Poorly worded. Bleeding out would've been more accurate.

Still, my point stands. Personal experience is not always a valid argument.

[RedJohn]

I must say that some people here haven't realized skill =/= knowledge.

[Original Twigman]

[quote]Annomander wrote...

[quote]Original Stikman wrote...

[quote]stormrider1012 wrote...

[quote]Original Stikman wrote...

[quote]etm125 wrote...

[quote]Original Stikman wrote...

there have been plenty of well grounded arguments, you obviously haven't read them or are cherry-picking if you think those are the only ones
[/quote]

I've been reading and posting in these threads for a week (I think we all need a better hobby) and the only post Ive read that comes close to a counter argument was from Cyonan about the invincibility frames from certain power combinations and shield boosting offering something close to the invulnerability of EDI. Kroguard with a reegar, volus, etc. Every other one Ive come across dodges a discussion of the balance of powers and game mechanics. "If you dont like it dont play it". Dodging the motion again. "This game is dying anyway, let it be". No mechanics. "Its a co-op game nothing is overpowered"! Dodging, dodging, dodging. 
[/quote]

Yeah... cherry picking...

There have been plenty[/quote]

Just sincerely asking so if you would humor me.. Like what? I'm really interested to see a proper rebuttal.

[/quote]

Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some

1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

Those are just a few. Then there are rebuttals toward the more minutea details such as assessing the risk-to-reward ratio, synergy of powers, her allowing lower-skilled players access to higher difficulties... but the ones i numbered are the main foundational rebuttals[/quote]

A good player won't need those infinity revives, though, will they?

How exactly does one "utilise" a revive well? Providing you are back on your feet, it's utilised well....[/quote]

Yes... unfortunately, like stim packs/ops packs, a poor player doesn't or can't utilize them effectively. Even with a single RM that works, there could be 3 or 4 that fail (i.e. the player had RM on and died next to a banshee cuz he didn't see it then gets grabbed, or a player dies, gets up, then dies again because he couldn't react fast enough)... plenty of examples.

[quote]
The AIU becomes dominant when people realise there is no point in playing anything else, as they get better damage and better survivability from playing it than they do anything else. Just like why there are more TGI+harriers than anything else in gold. Other than variety; and nerfing something to ensure variety and balance is perfectly acceptable for me.
[/quote]

The only issue is that this isn't a when its an if..... Until then, we don't have a meta-game break. If the AIU became dominant i would agree to a more severe nerf. However, that simply isn't the case. You can argue that its preventative, but really, its just a game, so taking such precaution isn't really necessary. We get balance changes every two weeks... two weeks won't destroy a game if it became a problem

[/quote]

[TeamLexana]

Annomander wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

stormrider1012 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

etm125 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

there have been plenty of well grounded arguments, you obviously haven't read them or are cherry-picking if you think those are the only ones

I've been reading and posting in these threads for a week (I think we all need a better hobby) and the only post Ive read that comes close to a counter argument was from Cyonan about the invincibility frames from certain power combinations and shield boosting offering something close to the invulnerability of EDI. Kroguard with a reegar, volus, etc. Every other one Ive come across dodges a discussion of the balance of powers and game mechanics. "If you dont like it dont play it". Dodging the motion again. "This game is dying anyway, let it be". No mechanics. "Its a co-op game nothing is overpowered"! Dodging, dodging, dodging. 

Yeah... cherry picking...

There have been plenty

Just sincerely asking so if you would humor me.. Like what? I'm really interested to see a proper rebuttal.

Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some

1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

Those are just a few. Then there are rebuttals toward the more minutea details such as assessing the risk-to-reward ratio, synergy of powers, her allowing lower-skilled players access to higher difficulties... but the ones i numbered are the main foundational rebuttals

A good player won't need those infinity revives, though, will they?

How exactly does one "utilise" a revive well? Providing you are back on your feet, it's utilised well....

The AIU becomes dominant when people realise there is no point in playing anything else, as they get better damage and better survivability from playing it than they do anything else. Just like why there are more TGI+harriers than anything else in gold. Other than variety; and nerfing something to ensure variety and balance is perfectly acceptable for me.

Must be a pc thing cuz I rarely see anyone play a GI in random lobbies. I got freinds who use the GI but they don't use the Harrier on him.

[Lord Rosario]

Annomander wrote...

A good player won't need those infinity revives, though, will they?

How exactly does one "utilise" a revive well? Providing you are back on your feet, it's utilised well....

The AIU becomes dominant when people realise there is no point in playing anything else, as they get better damage and better survivability from playing it than they do anything else. Just like why there are more TGI+harriers than anything else in gold. Other than variety; and nerfing something to ensure variety and balance is perfectly acceptable for me.

Someone that doesn't know how to use it will use it when they are near death, will ty to save grenades as much as possible, or might spam them and run out entirely most of the time. They only give you an instant revive if it is in use. Additionally, if they aren't a very good player, they will rush in, thinking they can't die, get dropped by a ton of enemies, and just go right back down after getting back up.

That's how it can be utilised unwell.

[GoudaMaster]

 I think the duration will take a hit, but I hope for the damage reduction after reviving to be reduced to 30%, that's the most insane thing about her in my opinion, and the movement speed to be reduced. 50% chance to self-revive would be harsh, but the power would still be effective so if it can be added by balance change, why not.

I will just add, I don't have any trouble with the free medi gel thing, I think this is a good thing, because for people like me who die a lot, to be able to revive myself without using gel is helpful, and that's the point of the power anyway.


But I find that a nerf is needed:
While I don't see repair matrix like a overpowered power, people using it tend to be selfish: i don't speak about the objectives, I think about people balancing themselves. They use their grenade gear, go to ammo box to ammo box without thinking about the teammates with offensive grenade because they prefer to be able to revive anytime, most use reegar because with her, that amazing weapon become godly, and they rush to kill thing before I can scope... They end up with 200k, their e-peen must be big, but no one want to play with them again. Only because of those, in my opinion it needs a nerf. It will never hurt someone who use her to prime for cryo explosion, a melee build or someone like me who play with a claymore, in short people who know that there is 4 players who want to have fun in the map.

Modifié par GoudaMaster, 07 mars 2013 - 01:02 .

[Cyonan]

1almond wrote...

/inb4anotherredjohnthread

Cool prediction bro..

The only thing that makes the AIU unique is her repair matrix. Without
that, you have a close-range kit with NO survivability except tactical
cloak. Bioware did not even give this kit a chance with ranged without
equipment, 6b TC is shotgun damage....

Without repair matrix the
AIU is useless IMO. Close range kits need some kind of survivability,
Cabal has her Biotic Focus, every other vanguard has barriers restored
on charge, N7 Paladin has that shield, Krogan have a **** ton of shields
and some HP regen, Vorcha's have MASSIVE HP regen, and the Geth
Juggernaut has a melee that restores shields. Wtf are you going to give
the AIU except Repair Matrix? Snap Freeze is in there and it won't stop
enemies with Armor/Shields.

Complainers need to stop whining and figure out how to build kits before they talk.

Because an 80% damage increase means having no chance?

Also, what does a shotgun GI have for survivability?

What about a Phoenix Adept?

and only 1 of our 5 Krogan has any health regeneration,

[Original Twigman]

TeamLexana wrote...

Must be a pc thing cuz I rarely see anyone play a GI in random lobbies. I got freinds who use the GI but they don't use the Harrier on him.

you have no friends!!!!

[etm125]

Original Stikman wrote...
Meh, i'll just give some cliffs for some
1. What is the purpose of balance? Answer: to prevent a single feature from dominating the meta-game (how the game plays). Ex. Firebase white/gold/geth, Krysea + infiltrator, etc. Does the AIU do this? no.
2. "unlimited revives" is limited to a player's ability to utilize them, rather than being able to utilize them just because they have it. Ergo a poor player won't be able to utilize them, while an excellent player doesn't need to, while a mediocre player will need it every once in awhile (it benefits them the most)
3. Repair matrix = / = mission accomplished

I like the definition of balance from point 1. The goal here is to keep variety and viability of kits. If point 2 is incorrect and you can, in fact have for all intents and purposes, infinite medigel that would disrupt the game (like the inf+krysae). Unlimited medigels alone would be enough to disrupt the game balance but she also gets incredibly high damage output to boot. I don't see how she doesn't have unlimited medigel. all you have to do is make it to an ammo box. Any ammo box at all. Even without a movement bonus this is not asking much of even a casual player. "Here, you can have game genie unlimited lives and all you have to do is hit an ammo box. But only 1 kit gets this ability. Nobody else gets it."

Does this sound fair and balanced? I'm deliberately trying to avoid hyperbole but I do mean that besides synch kills (to which every class is vulnerable. Balanced) she is unkillable so long as she can make it to an ammo box. The only other time Ive managed to be killed is via staggerlock upon getting up (usually collectors. Cheap sons o' guns). 


The only viable balance besides a patch is a duration nerf. I currently have 20 some odd seconds. If it only lasted a few seconds at least you'd have to have the skill and foresight to know troubles coming in the immediate next few seconds. With 20 seconds and a grenade cap V I can play her like no other kit. I just dont need cover at all....there are no reprocussions for horrible gameplay.

Modifié par etm125, 07 mars 2013 - 01:10 .

[shnig_1]

If insta revive stays, the only option is to decrease the duration. Everything else is a ok in my book, but the duration is too long.

[HereticBrony]

1almond wrote...

/inb4anotherredjohnthread

Cool prediction bro..

The only thing that makes the AIU unique is her repair matrix. Without
that, you have a close-range kit with NO survivability except tactical
cloak. Bioware did not even give this kit a chance with ranged without
equipment, 6b TC is shotgun damage....

Without repair matrix the
AIU is useless IMO. Close range kits need some kind of survivability,
Cabal has her Biotic Focus, every other vanguard has barriers restored
on charge, N7 Paladin has that shield, Krogan have a **** ton of shields
and some HP regen, Vorcha's have MASSIVE HP regen, and the Geth
Juggernaut has a melee that restores shields. Wtf are you going to give
the AIU except Repair Matrix? Snap Freeze is in there and it won't stop
enemies with Armor/Shields.

Complainers need to stop whining and figure out how to build kits before they talk.

Is it bad that I recognize your profile picture?