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[Tae Jir]

Just started the City Elf origins story and have played to Ostagar.
(City Elf Origins spoiler)

So if you have played this story, you know of the kidnapping of our Elven women by the baddies and of our heroic rescue of same.

Here's the thing: Morrigan runs around in clothes that if she was running around in she wouldn't long be in, and in camp or at Pearls there is happy naked (Ok, loin undies) sack time, and  in almost any balttle that occurs, someone is going to lose their head in great gouts of blood. All good so far. What I find curious, is that when the elven women are kidnapped, one killed and one raped, the brutalized one is shown totally clothed and not even messed up!

Considering the sex and violence in this game, it must have been a deliberate design choice. So I have two questions:

Do you support this choice?
Was there anything else in the game like this?

Me: I think it stupid. I certainly wouldn't want too much realism here, I think that might have shocked me out of the game frame of mind, but come on! not even mussed?

[ReubenLiew]

She is wearing a skirt after all...

[Vicious]

I'm glad that it wasn't graphically represented. Not for any special reason, I just find it to be extremely sick.

I always kill Vaughn when I find him in the prison. I don't need his vote, and i'm always looking to add another notch on the side of my murder knife.

Modifié par Vicious, 12 janvier 2010 - 11:57 .

[Herr Uhl]

They are very neat rapists?



And there is either full blood mode, ghoul mode or normal mode. I think normal mode was most fitting.

[Creature 1]

Tae Jir wrote...
Do you support this choice?

Yes.  Rape is actually way more common than you'd think, and, yes, has aftereffects that last for years.  I imagine the devs didn't want to make that scene to graphic because it would be emotional nitroglycerine for a minority of their customers.  That origin is already highly emotionally loaded for any player, the voice acting alone made me want to hurt someone.  I think portraying the scene in more detail would just be upsetting for a lot of people, and raise concerns about excessively exploiting what is really a tragic event for entertainment's sake. 

[IronWolf1987]

Isn't rape shown graphically in plenty of movies and TV though? The movie Deliverance comes to mind, and if I recall Jodie Foster did some a movie or two where she is a rape victim who becomes like a vigilante or something, I didn't see the movie, but I'm guessing they didn't fade to black during the rape part. Of course Movies and TV can probably get away with a lot more than video games for some reason, I guess because in a movie or TV show you're merely observing, while in a video game you can participate via your character. But then again even if you can't decide how the movie or TV show goes, I think you can participate in the movie and the show through the characters and actors, or at the very least kind of live through them.

[SusanStoHelit]

Well, Shianni was splashed in blood in mine, but that was from Vaughan and co. I think there are very valid reasons for not being too graphical here.



However, I do think that perhaps her clothing being a little torn and some bruising or scratches or cuts (she hides the rape by saying she was beaten up, after all) would help the realism without being over the top.

[likeorasgod]

ReubenLiew wrote...

She is wearing a skirt after all...

That was the first thing I thought cause back than there was alot of rape and pillage going on and they wouldn't take time to get undressed.  Just watch most of the movies that show the darker side of the time....(I know this is fantacy, but oh well).

Joan of Arc
Flesh N Blood
Robin Hood.

All these and more showed a fully clothed rape or attempted rape in them.



All I know is I just started my city elf and about to do the ostagar tower.....I was so happy to butcher every one of them guards and nobles.....though was it me, but that seemed the shortest origin of them all.  Only one I have left is Dwarf Commoner.

[amrose2]

It's a little disconnecting, true. However, it's still powerful enough IMO. I don't know if I would really want it to be any more graphic, to be honest.



I used to always straight out kill Vaughn on my non-city elf playthroughs, but lately I've been stealing his gold and leaving him to rot instead. Nobody will believe a crazy man in jail of his claims of being the Arl of Denerim

[Spitz6860]

i thought she just got beat, she told me that as far as the others are concerned she got just soften up a bit. and i remember when i walked into that room she had one hand covering up her stomach and surrounded by 3 standing men. i think the only time the game mentions the word rape is when you were talking to Cailen, but then i thought my character is just being hostile to a human king and exaggerating things.

[ArathWoeeye]

This game tells a story and makes points.

In current incarnation, it does a well-enough job to make the point. Since purpose is done, there is no need for more.



I wouldn't add more either. And it looks like a good call from designers, people are already going "OMG SEXIST" over anything they find.

[AntiChri5]

I feel it kid of trivialises rape. Whenever implemented rape should be a REALLY big deal, as it is in real life, and not a side thing that some may not even notice. It should be so confrontationally in your face that you cant help but face the issue and be revolted by it.

[steelfire_dragon]

a graphical rape scene would of done something that EA, Bioware, would regret.
the game would of not been a m rated game but an A rated game.
as such it would not be available on the shelf

Modifié par steelfire_dragon, 13 janvier 2010 - 12:55 .

[AntiChri5]

steelfire_dragon wrote...

a graphical rape scene would of done something that EA, Bioware, would regret.
the game would of not been a m rated game but an A rated game.
as such it would not be available on the shelf

I dont mean a graphical rape scene but something that showed the after effects a little more directly (it is only ever hinted at really).

Something like Shianni being only partially clothed and obviously roughed up. Something that makes it impossble to ignore what happened to her.

[tallon1982]

Rob Roy comes to mind when I saw Shianni on the floor fully dressed. I would have loved to throw Vaughn out the window a la Braveheart...what's the word? Defenestration?

[SarEnyaDor]

Just a point, all rapes don't have to involve beatings, a strong man can restrain a small woman and have his way with her without ripping her clothes off or bloodying her mouth/blackening her eye. So unless you wanna show close ups of intimate damage or spend some time doing the psychological damage afterward I think the scene is more than efficient at getting the point across as to what happened.

[Creature 1]

Spitz6860 wrote...
i thought she just got beat, she told me that as far as the others are concerned she got just soften up a bit. and i remember when i walked into that room she had one hand covering up her stomach and surrounded by 3 standing men. i think the only time the game mentions the word rape is when you were talking to Cailen, but then i thought my character is just being hostile to a human king and exaggerating things.

Um, no, it's pretty clear she got raped. 

[SusanStoHelit]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Just a point, all rapes don't have to involve beatings, a strong man can restrain a small woman and have his way with her without ripping her clothes off or bloodying her mouth/blackening her eye. So unless you wanna show close ups of intimate damage or spend some time doing the psychological damage afterward I think the scene is more than efficient at getting the point across as to what happened.

Absolutely true. But Shianni actually tells you if you ask her that the others don't know about the rape - she just let them think she's been 'roughed up'. If she was roughed up enough for that to be a viable excuse - it should show.

I certainly don't want anything graphic or intimate - like I said, a few bruises, a scratch, slightly torn clothes (sleeve hanging loose maybe).

Edit: Bruises and so forth on her face, arms, neck, etc. Let me be crystal clear here.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:18 .

[eschilde]

I would guess they didn't want to spend that much time on extra modeling for that, either. Regular clothing in game doesn't get torn from battle. You can't tell if your PCs get bruised or anything, either. Seems like it would be a lot of extra work, even if it was only for one NPC. (And if it's only for one origin, is it worth doing? Catch 22?) I'm with everyone else who says it would be unnecessary.

Vaughn does a perfectly good job of making people (read: me) mad and coming off as a creep as it is. Seriously, the voice acting is quite good. Do we really need Shianni to be half naked to get the point?

As an aside, the BBC's running an article about a leading porn start claiming video games are worse for children than porn. No need to give them more fodder, eh?

Modifié par eschilde, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:27 .

[le_cygne]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I feel it kid of trivialises rape. Whenever implemented rape should be a REALLY big deal, as it is in real life, and not a side thing that some may not even notice. It should be so confrontationally in your face that you cant help but face the issue and be revolted by it.

Frankly I don't see how this isn't already the case in the City Elf origin. It is, in my opinion, quite in the player's face, and I don't really see how someone could "miss" it.

Sure, there's certainly literature and film out there that deals with this and other extremely nasty subject matter much more directly, and I'm all for that, but Dragon Age is, at the end of the day, epic fantasy, even if it has some darker elements. Trivializing something like rape (or human trafficking later in the game, for that matter) would be saying it could be satisfactorily resolved in a 15 minute vignette before you go off to fight a dragon in a video game.

In both of these instances, I think Bioware's writers did a good job of making them disgusting and explicit enough to drive a mature, emotionally resonant narrative without pretending to make a comprehensive overview of some of the more horrible things that people can do to one another.

[SarEnyaDor]

eschilde wrote...

As an aside, the BBC's running an article about a leading porn star claiming video games are worse for children than porn. No need to give them more fodder, eh?

Yeah, well there is a wide range of pr0n out there and some of it is way more disturbing than anything in the Pearl.
And isn't that sort of like dairy farmers telling you milk is better than water?

[eschilde]

@SarEnyaDor
You'd think an article like that wouldn't get run by a respectable news source >.> maybe they're desperate.
Careful not to invoke Rule 34 >.>

Modifié par eschilde, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:42 .

[AntiChri5]

le_cygne wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I feel it kid of trivialises rape. Whenever implemented rape should be a REALLY big deal, as it is in real life, and not a side thing that some may not even notice. It should be so confrontationally in your face that you cant help but face the issue and be revolted by it.

Frankly I don't see how this isn't already the case in the City Elf origin. It is, in my opinion, quite in the player's face, and I don't really see how someone could "miss" it.

Sure, there's certainly literature and film out there that deals with this and other extremely nasty subject matter much more directly, and I'm all for that, but Dragon Age is, at the end of the day, epic fantasy, even if it has some darker elements. Trivializing something like rape (or human trafficking later in the game, for that matter) would be saying it could be satisfactorily resolved in a 15 minute vignette before you go off to fight a dragon in a video game.

In both of these instances, I think Bioware's writers did a good job of making them disgusting and explicit enough to drive a mature, emotionally resonant narrative without pretending to make a comprehensive overview of some of the more horrible things that people can do to one another.

Yeah i definately see where you are coming from here and i agree, but anything dealing with rape has to be damn
 carefull to represent it as as brutal as it is while trying not to show it, which can lead to it being trivialised.