209 réponses à ce sujet

[Enkara the Red]

When I first played the City Elf origin, I was unsure what was going on when I first entered the room with Vaughan an co.
I saw Shianni on the floor, but as the OP said, she was fully clothed.
Then she said, "Just take me home."

Kudos to the voice actress. Just from the way that was said, all ambiguity was removed from the scene. I knew they had raped her.

Modifié par Enkara the Red, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:50 .

[SarEnyaDor]

@AntiChri5



Maybe it's a gender thing, and I don't mean that as anything other than rape is something that all females have had some sort of contact with - had it happen, had it almost happen, had it happen to someone they knew - whereas it is a much more foriegn concept for males. You guys always seem to go to the brutal beaten to a pulp rape scene from a movie when you think of it.

[Creature 1]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

@AntiChri5

Maybe it's a gender thing, and I don't mean that as anything other than rape is something that all females have had some sort of contact with - had it happen, had it almost happen, had it happen to someone they knew - whereas it is a much more foriegn concept for males. You guys always seem to go to the brutal beaten to a pulp rape scene from a movie when you think of it.

Probably true, I think women are much more aware of this.  Women are much more likely to get raped than men, and tend to be physically weaker than most men.  In a bad part of town a small guy may just have to worry about getting mugged, a woman the same size has to worry about getting mugged and getting raped.  Even if a woman has never been sexually assaulted and doesn't know (or doesn't know that she knows) anyone who has, I think women still are more aware of the risk. 

I doubt there are any women who played through the City Elf origin who didn't realize what happened before you walked in that room. 

[MassEffect762]

Not in this politically correct World. Simple as that.



"Clowns to the LEFT of me, jokers to the RIGHT"



Bioware is too modest/professional to take that approach. Rape is usually not good for buisness, otherwise hentai games would be sold at your local Walmart.



It's real, it happens but it's looked at with digust by most adults more so if theres a chance there kiddie might see it. Behead all day long, most folks save the busy bodys have been desensitized to it for the most part.

[RubiconA7]

The OP has a point.... Not in a way that I agree, but in a view point gameplay wise...



I may just be dull, but when I played through the city elf origin, I did not even realize Shianni was raped? Or was it your bride?

[errant_knight]

Something like that has to be handled so as not to pander to sickos. If it was more graphic, you know there'd be some a-hole who'd enjoy it rather than be horrified.

[phordicus]

since when did rape require obvious physical damage?

[tallon1982]

Rape is more of an emotional damage which is a running theme in the whole game to start with.

[tonydizzle]

Creature 1 wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

@AntiChri5

Maybe it's a gender thing, and I don't mean that as anything other than rape is something that all females have had some sort of contact with - had it happen, had it almost happen, had it happen to someone they knew - whereas it is a much more foriegn concept for males. You guys always seem to go to the brutal beaten to a pulp rape scene from a movie when you think of it.

Probably true, I think women are much more aware of this.  Women are much more likely to get raped than men, and tend to be physically weaker than most men.  In a bad part of town a small guy may just have to worry about getting mugged, a woman the same size has to worry about getting mugged and getting raped.  Even if a woman has never been sexually assaulted and doesn't know (or doesn't know that she knows) anyone who has, I think women still are more aware of the risk. 

I doubt there are any women who played through the City Elf origin who didn't realize what happened before you walked in that room. 

As a guy myself, I had no problem understanding that she was raped, so I don't think it's a gender thing, just possibly a maturity thing? I could tell she was GOING to be raped from when Vaughn took them. That guy was a bleeping bleep of a bleep's bleep and I enjoyed killing him WAY too much... I thought it was portrayed just well enough as is and wouldn't change a thing...

Kudos for the voice acting in this game and the story, it was extremely engrossing for me overall. I felt these characters were more 'alive' than any other game I've played to date.

[eschilde]

@RubiconA7

Shianni is the one... the cut scene where Vaughn crashes your wedding makes his intentions pretty obvious. If you skipped some cut scenes you might have missed it; it's not something that's totally obvious just on entering the room, but becomes fairly obvious if you talk to Shianni afterwards.

In the context of gameplay, I don't think that not realizing Shianni was actually raped would affect how you feel about the whole situation. Even if she wasn't, she was about to be (and that, I hope, would be obvious) and your choices would be affected in a similar manner.



Note: I am not trying to belittle the idea of rape, only to put it into the context in which it was presented. Rape and other ugly issues are often tackled by many types of medium; in a product that is meant to be mass-marketed and very visually-based, presenting such an issue in a very graphic manner may not be the wisest or most tasteful course of action.

[Creature 1]

phordicus wrote...

since when did rape require obvious physical damage?

Doesn't even require force.  Might involve coercion, but doesn't even have to have that.  All that's required is lack of consent. 

[Topaz Bee]

Speaking as... someone who has experience in this topic. :/



I thought they showed enough. Unless you're the most naive person on earth, it's glaringly obvious what had happened to her. I wouldn't go so far as to say it would be tasteless to show her with less clothes, but really... what would be the point?

[SusanStoHelit]

I just ran this by my best friend (had to bring her over, find a save, play it, etc.) who had something happen to her when she was 17 that was very similar to Shianni's experience. (I explained why I was asking, and what I'd be showing her first, ofc.)



She said two things relevant to this discussion:



1. She was disappointed that Shianni covered it up. She said it was a valid choice, and she wasn't suprised, and that many women actually take this course of action. But she was disappointed.



2. She felt that the lack of visual cues to what had happened, in particular since Shianni covered it up, in such a visual media meant that some seeing it wouldn't feel the full terror and horror of what had happened to her. (She said much more, but that's it in a nutshell.)



Now, you might not feel that is not germane, and not all rape victims might agree. But that's how she felt. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, neither my friend nor I are North American, so maybe we just feel differently about what is 'graphic' or not. After all, I wouldn't call a couple bruises and a torn sleeve or neckline 'graphic' in any situation whatsoever.

[SarEnyaDor]

My point is people keep focusing on the VISUAL evidence of it, and that is BS - a hand covering your nose and mouth while you're pushed up against a wall in a skirt is more than enough to get the job done and leave virtually no evidence aside from DNA to a person coming down the dorm hall ten minutes later.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 13 janvier 2010 - 03:26 .

[LadySeryn]

I personally thought BioWare handled this whole scene very, very well.

It should perfectly clear to the majority of mature players what really happened (as is obvious from this thread).  But at the same time, they did not sensationalize it by adding any nudity or blood, and they purposely left the dialog vague enough (other than one line with Cailin that you don't have to pick) that if you're one of those people that doesn't want to or simply can't bear to think about it, you can convince yourself that she was only "beaten up".  Less mature audiences will most likely take it at face value, and assume that since she said she was beaten, that's all there was to it.

I also do not think that in the context of the story line that what happend with Shianni would be an extremely violent (in terms of blood and guts) scene anyway.  The elves are used to being treated poorly, and Shianni is a very strong person.  Shianni would have known what was going to happen, and she would have known that the same or worse would happen to her friends and family once the Arl's son and his men were finished with her.  I think Shianni's character would not have resited very much, knowing that the three armed men and the guards outside would simply kill her and move on to her friends and family.  I believe her character would have sacrificed herself and not put up much of a fight in order to spare her friends and family as much pain as possible.


There is no reason to make the scene any more explicit, which would strike a very sensitive nerve with many of BioWare's customers, not to mention the media.  The scene did its job.  It told the story, and is already a very emotional scene without being any more explicit.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the ESRB (and PEGI) would have given the game an Adults Only rating had this scene been any more explicit, which would completely kill the game's viability, since most major retailers will not sell AO games, and both Microsoft and Sony have rules against AO games on their platforms.

Modifié par LadySeryn, 13 janvier 2010 - 03:17 .

[AntiChri5]

Creature 1 wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

@AntiChri5

Maybe it's a gender thing, and I don't mean that as anything other than rape is something that all females have had some sort of contact with - had it happen, had it almost happen, had it happen to someone they knew - whereas it is a much more foriegn concept for males. You guys always seem to go to the brutal beaten to a pulp rape scene from a movie when you think of it.

Probably true, I think women are much more aware of this.  Women are much more likely to get raped than men, and tend to be physically weaker than most men.  In a bad part of town a small guy may just have to worry about getting mugged, a woman the same size has to worry about getting mugged and getting raped.  Even if a woman has never been sexually assaulted and doesn't know (or doesn't know that she knows) anyone who has, I think women still are more aware of the risk. 

I doubt there are any women who played through the City Elf origin who didn't realize what happened before you walked in that room. 

It probably is a gender thing, this is definately an issue that will be more known to women. After the cutscene my reaction was rage. I couldnt even consider taking his bribe (even though i had planned from the beginning for that character to be as sociopathic as possible). The reaction i would have expected from rape is not anger but horror. A kind of crushing disgust that leaves you feeling as though a crate of bricks has just been dropped on you. Perhaps it affected me that way because it is a lot harder for me to picture myself in such a situation than it is for a woman. Thinking of traditional gender roles a womans reaction would likely be to sympathise with and comfort the victim where a mans would be to track down the perpatrator and remove the offending organ (if he is allowed to live at all) so perhaps this is more a result of cultural conditioning.

Anyway, one thing is certain. Vaughn will never survive any of my playthroughs.

[eschilde]

@SusanStoHelit



On a budget and a deadline, extra modeling may not have been feasible. And this is a sensitive subject. If Bioware chose to err on the side of less graphic graphics, I don't think it's really something you can hold against them. The event is presented in a way which should cause indignity on your part, whether you got the details of everything that happened or not..

[AntiChri5]

LadySeryn wrote...

I personally thought BioWare handled this whole scene very, very well.

It should perfectly clear to the majority of mature players what really happened (as is obvious from this thread).  But at the same time, they did not sensationalize it by adding any nudity or blood, and they purposely left the dialog vague enough (other than one line with Cailin that you don't have to pick) that if you're one of those people that doesn't want to or simply can't bear to think about it, you can convince yourself that she was only "beaten up".  Less mature audiences will most likely take it at face value, and assume that since she said she was beaten, that's all there was to it.

I also do not think that in the context of the story line that what happend with Shianni would be an extremely violent (in terms of blood and guts) scene anyway.  The elves are used to being treated poorly, and Shianni is a very strong person.  Shianni would have known what was going to happen, and she would have known that the same or worse would happen to her friends and family once the Arl's son and his men were finished with her.  I think Shianni's character would not have resited very much, knowing that the three armed men and the guards outside would simply kill her and move on to her friends and family.  I believe her character would have sacrificed herself and not put up much of a fight in order to spare her friends and family as much pain as possible.


There is no reason to make the scene any more explicit, which would strike a very sensitive nerve with many of BioWare's customers, not to mention the media.  The scene did its job.  It told the story, and is already a very emotional scene without being any more explicit.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the ESRB (and PEGI) would have given the game an Adults Only rating had this scene been any more explicit, which would completely kill the game's viability, since most major retailers will not sell AO games, and both Microsoft and Sony have rules against AO games on their platforms.

I can certainly see how even the way it is represented may be too painfull for some. My point is that something so brutal and cruel should always leave the veiwer suppressing the urge to vomit (in my opinion at least). Maybe i just need it spelled out for me a bit more because of my gender. It is the kind of thing that should make the player have to put down the controller for a minute or two to truly process it. Maybe that is only so for males though? It is something women have to live with as a possibility rather than just a horiffic concept.

Anyway i am arguing way out of my element here and have no idea what i am talking about, these are just my opinions on how it should be dealt with.

[Arinosmirc]

2. She felt that the lack of visual cues to what had happened, in particular since Shianni covered it up, in such a visual media meant that some seeing it wouldn't feel the full terror and horror of what had happened to her. (She said much more, but that's it in a nutshell.)

That's what I thought. Yes, it's made quite clear what happened to her, but the impact would have been more pronounced on the player if there had been a visual cue or some sort (stripped to the undies and such, or something along those lines)

Was the first thought I had when I encountered that scene. While in my mind I knew what happened, it didn't really impact me as much as I thought it should have. Some sort of visual cue should've been there to help deliver that impact, even if nothing more then a battered version of her dress, maybe with a few tears in it, looking disturbed...

That said, I understand it's a touchy subject, and the scene had to be handled tactifully.

Modifié par Arinosmirc, 13 janvier 2010 - 05:47 .

[errant_knight]

tallon1982 wrote...

Rape is more of an emotional damage which is a running theme in the whole game to start with.

Huh. That's a very interesting point--about emotional damage being a running theme. All of the companions, presumably the PC, and a fair number of the NPC have emotional damage of some kind, usually resulting in the worst of their character flaws.... Very interesting. I'd thought about that in terms of Alistair and Morrigan, but hadn't applied the concept that broadly.

[LadySeryn]

My point is that something so brutal and cruel should always leave the veiwer suppressing the urge to vomit (in my opinion at least).

For some people, what is already in the game will have this effect.  It's an extremely sensitive subject for many women (and men), especially for anyone who has lived through it or has known someone who has.  Some people that I know would go so far as to say that the entire topic has no place in a video game at all, and even the mention of it in a game is "enough for them to vomit."

I don't share that view.  I think that it's an important subject that should be dealt with in all forms of art, including video games.  But I think it must be done tastefully, and not be trivialized or sensationalized.  I think BioWare did an excellent job of walking that fine line, and that making the scene any more explicit would have only hindered their attempts to deal with a very sensitive topic in a mature and tactful way, either by sensationalizing it (especially if the media got a hold of it), or by being forced to cut the scene or rework the origin story entirely.

Maybe that is only so for males though? It is something women have to live with as a possibility rather than just a horiffic concept.

I don't think so.  I think that may be true of the stereotypical single male 18-25 gamer.  But ask almost any man who has a daughter, and I'm sure that they will tell you that they really don't need to see any graphic depictions of rape in their games either.

Modifié par LadySeryn, 13 janvier 2010 - 03:54 .

[errant_knight]

To the OP: Just want to say that it's commendable that you're thinking about the issue and interested in discussing it. *tip of the hat*

[AntiChri5]

LadySeryn wrote..

Maybe that is only so for males though? It is something women have to live with as a possibility rather than just a horiffic concept.

I don't think so.  I think that may be true of the stereotypical single male 18-25 gamer.  But ask almost any man who has a daughter, and I'm sure that they will tell you that they really don't need to see any graphic depictions of rape in their games either.

I am a single 19 year old guy so your point is probably true. I, personally, dont have to face it as anything other than something that could happen to a freind, so perhaps i have to be beaten over the head with it to get the brutalty accross.

[SusanStoHelit]

I'm female, nearly 50, and my best friend was the victim of a gang rape. I think we'll just have to say personal, cultural, societal, or other differences.



In any case, an interesting topic, and I'm glad the guys are paying attention too.

[Palentor]

I would hazard the guess that it is really rather a maturity than a gender thing. Because even though the Shianni scene might not have been very graphically graphic, everything else right after Vaughan enters the picture is quite vocally so.

When I played that origin story, without knowing anything about the content beforehand, it was so blatantly obvious to me what's going down right from the point of my interrupted wedding ceremony. And to be honest, one wouldn't go on a killing spree, breaking every imaginable law in the process, to free some girls if they didn't, deep inside, knew what Vaughan meant by "We gonna have a party and need some girls.". Surely not sipping tea and intellectual conversation.

They wouldn't even serve him at The Pearl obviously, due to his *strange* tastes.