209 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

I found the scene conveyed perfectly what had transpired, when tied in with the beginning of the Origin. There was no need for it to be more graphic. Compound that scene with the male guards standing over the dead elf, discussing being picky really added to the overall feel. There was no need to catch them in the act, as it were.

[bas273]

I always thought I arrived just in time until I read on the wiki that she had already been raped >.<

[Arinosmirc]

bas273 wrote...

I always thought I arrived just in time until I read on the wiki that she had already been raped >.<

I initially thought that as well until the dialogue came up.

Obviously, it would be poor taste to have the act depicted. Just rather that there should have been a more impacting visual cue to make you go "You monster...I'm taking you down hard..."

Instead, I get a more of a "well, I dealt with him, are you HE DID WHAT?" feeling when I play through it.

[elys]

I'm a bit puzzled by the ethics of the views here.
Not about the discussion about wherever the game should have get the rape scene more detailed, but about the fact that people seems to basically say:

- Trivializing violence or murder is ok

but

- Trivializing rape or slavery is not.

They're all really bad in real life, why one could be trivialized and not the others, or simply not trivializing them at all.

Now, I make a very clear disctinction between reality and fiction (whatever the source, from your head, from a book, a movie, from a videogame, etc...), and so every one should be allowed to imagine what he wants and eventually share it, because nothing of it exists, nor hurt anyone. Why, unless there is real perfectly definite and concrete reason, I'm against Censure in general.

I acknowledge however than content advisories are usefull so people can be informed about what they will be exposed on and choose accordindly to use the product or not.

Else back on the original question of this topic, I think depicting visually a rape scene in Dragon Age is not needed (but It would have not shocked me otherwise), and the contrary would have certainly bring more bad than good from a public image perspective and the consequences involved.

Modifié par elys, 13 janvier 2010 - 08:40 .

[saori_shinjiro]

I believe even without the graphic representation of the scene, the emotions were still well conveyed to the audience. In a way, if they actually decided to go through with a more vivid depiction of what happened, it might have ended up backfiring.

[kormesios]

They certainly couldn't show the rape graphically--what is your character going to do when the cutscene started, stand and watch?  Let the Arl's son stand up and arm himself so you can then kill him in a fit of rage.  Not to mention the engine apparently has trouble with bodies interacting.

Personally, I found Shianni's pathetic crying one of the most disturbing scenes in the game--from proud, fiery woman to a lump curled up on the floor sobbing "just get me out of here . . ."

But since that "after effect" apparently doesn't count, I guess it just boils down to whether they'd show torn clothes and muffed hair?

eschilde wrote...

I would guess they didn't want to spend that much time on extra modeling for that, either. Regular clothing in game doesn't get torn from battle. You can't tell if your PCs get bruised or anything, either.

Not to be excessively mundane, but this is exactly correct.  Extra modeling of bruises and torn clothes for one brief scene in one of the six origins?  It really doesn't make much sense.  That was the "conscious decision," not some carefully calibrated opinion about what line to cross or not.

[Xandurpein]

I could see them adding a few bruises to Shiannai to get the awful moment across graphically too, but I'm sure that the reasons they didn't was due to game mechanics. There is no general mechanic for adding bruises to a face, or torn clothes. They would have to replace Shianni's default clothes with a new set and swap her face. It's doable ofc, but it's not something that happens anywhere else in the game. If you do make her bruised, why won't your PC have bruises and black eyes after fights?

[SuperMedbh]

That origin story was my first (and still favourite) character, and it was the first time I ever cried playing a video game. I don't mean to stereotype, but I'm guessing that those of you who want something more overt are not women.



And seeing your character's proud friend sobbing like that... Graphic isn't just in visual imagery.

[Lotion Soronarr]

It's not like it's difficult to mod.



Make a copy of Shiani, edit her face with a few bruises..and as for the dress - you can make a new texture and basicly a new dress, with a few tatters. Voila.

[lady winde]

bas273 wrote...

I always thought I arrived just in time until I read on the wiki that she had already been raped >.<

Don't worry you aren't the only one. I honestly thought my pc got there after the beatings but before rape. I knew there was rape involved in the origins before from what was hinted before the game release but that first playthrough I seriously thought it was toned down/edited out.

Either way it was certainly sad to see the proud Shianni tearful and on the floor unable to stand.

[SaltyWound]

I would have preferred Vaughn to be on top of/struggling with Shianni when you barge in. Yes, this would imply that you arrived just in time to stop the rape....but an old high school friend of mine could tell you that attempted and failed rape can be almost as horrifying as an actual successful (for lack of a better word) rape.



Either way, while I believe the scene is still atrociously effective, it could have been done differently.

[phordicus]

what i found interesting was her reaction to it. in my experience, her toughing-it-out acceptance of the rape right off the bat is very rare, and of those the more typical follow-ups are either (legitimate) rage or (illigitimate) guilt/self-blame rather than her stunning calm, so much so that i had a thought that the she had already exacted her revenge in some way.

Modifié par phordicus, 13 janvier 2010 - 09:10 .

[errant_knight]

SuperMedbh wrote...

That origin story was my first (and still favourite) character, and it was the first time I ever cried playing a video game. I don't mean to stereotype, but I'm guessing that those of you who want something more overt are not women.

And seeing your character's proud friend sobbing like that... Graphic isn't just in visual imagery.

Agreed. Not only would I not want to see it, but in the context of a video game, there has to be a balance. Yes, this one is a little more adult than most, and it touches on adult topics, but it's still a game. The violence is graphic, but not realistic. We don't actually see the human noble's mother and father slaughtered by Howe's men. I have to admit that my first impression of the game was that it was going to be rather grim and not much fun. It was a tremendous relief to run into Alistair at Ostagar. When you add touches of realism, and things that make you think--give you an emotional reaction, the game becomes more involving. Go too far in that direction and you end up with something too dark to be enjoyable for most.

[Hyper Cutter]

Admittedly, they should have at least had her "naked" in that scene.



They do seem to have been trying to make it ambiguous, though. Even Shianni herself never tells you outright she was raped. The first time it's explicitly mentioned, iirc, is if you make the right choices to get the "I killed an arl's son for raping my friend" dialogue option when talking with Cailan...

[elys]

@errant_knight:

You forgot about Ostagar mass slauthering. I still can see the gruesome death of the King
They did not hesitate to go graphically for this one.

Also if you play a violent character, you have the opportunity to slaughter visually many defenseless persons 
I'm not even talking about the various gore blood magic scenes.

If not during  the Circle of Magi quest, you have mages being tortured, and then their body and mind being greatly violented, all in a nice cutscene where you see all of this. It's worst than being raped but I see nobody complaining about it.

Why I think it's more the sexual aggressive aspect of the rape that are disturbing people around here, not the violence of the rape by itself, else people would have complained about the other violent content as well.

While I think than a rape scene is useless and not fitting for Dragon Age, I find hypocritical to justify its absence from the game just because of it's overall violent aspect, while the real reason seems to be against sexual violence only.

Let's call a cat a cat! (Dunno if this expression has a meaning in english  )

Modifié par elys, 13 janvier 2010 - 10:21 .

[Chaos-fusion]

Maybe because more people are actually affected by rape than by random strangers in a game being tunred into monsters?



Personally, I'm glad it was just what it was. More would be unnecessary.

[Spazmodian]

As stated on the first page, Rob Roy has a scene with a rape where the woman is punched in the stomach once, is tugged around a bit by her hair and has her arm twisted. She is raped fully clothed, and the guy is just as clothed as Vaughn is.



Netflix can stream Rob Roy instantly as well, the scene is about halfway through the movie. Decent movie overall anyways, plus Archibald makes Vaughn look pretty harmless.

[philippe willaume]

Really, this premises of the that thread as daft as a Bushism.



Really if you can not see the difference between the type of violence of the rape of an NPC and beheading a NPC, you do need professional help.



Watch Irrevesible if you need to be convinced how un-palatable rape is on screen.



phil

[Creature 1]

elys wrote...
I'm a bit puzzled by the ethics of the views here.
Not about the discussion about wherever the game should have get the rape scene more detailed, but about the fact that people seems to basically say:

- Trivializing violence or murder is ok

but

- Trivializing rape or slavery is not.

Somewhere around 1:10-1:6 women have been raped (City Elf origin), a much tinier proportion have had their family members murdered (human noble origin).  I don't think it's a matter of trivializing it as much as a recognition that the emotional impact of one event is going to be greater because of the audience's personal experiences.  Murder is something that happens to someone else, but rape could happen to you.  It's a fact of life that people are less emotionally concerned about events that seem distant from them.  If a person dies in a car wreck in your home town it might be a big deal locally, but people die across the globe every day and we don't really notice.  Even when people are concerned about events elsewhere and give money to help out, their emotional attitude is more distant than if the same events were happening right where they live.  I don't really think this is bad.  We can't care about every atrocity everywhere with the same intensity because it would just be crushing.  If we all felt the same way about rape, murder, slavery, and other horrors being portrayed in a game, book, or movie that we would feel if these things happened in real life, the topic matter of our entertainment would be pretty sanitized.  But that doesn't mean we aren't capable of recognizing a situation is wrong and doing our best to help out wherever we are. 

Besides, some people just need killing!    But I can't think of anyone who should be raped. 

[ReubenLiew]

Hitler could use some good raping. Man needs to loosen up them bowels.

Godwin, I choose you!

[Herr Uhl]

ReubenLiew wrote...
Godwin, I choose you!

Godwin uses nonsensical statement to hyperbole discussion.
It's super effective!

Thread is defeated, Godwin gains 428exp.

[AdorableAnarchist]

I found the entire scene exceptionally disturbing (including my own visceral reaction to Vaughn and the enjoyment I got from killing him -- but that comes from my own past and is another story all together). I also found it to be well done. There was enough information to evoke an emotional response, without going over the top. I think, if I had seen Shianni in torn clothing or bruised, I might have walked away from the game completely. For me, it would have been too much.



And yes, like other posters, the part that hit me the hardest was seeing Shianni curled up and sobbing... I could relate more than I expected and it was like a punch to the gut.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rape isn't nice or clean. Frankly, the game shouldn't have portrayed it as such.

It DOES get the point across, but IMHO, it would have gotten the point across better with a tear or two on her dress and a bruise on her face. Not needed...but hey. This is a modding community. We add a bunch of "not needed" stuff anyway, right?

Hm..I might actually try and add this..Along with "slitting throat" anim for Vaughn:devil:

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:14 .

[SarEnyaDor]

If you need visual evidence to "prove" that a rape occurred, by all means mod your little hearts out.



My complaint is you guys seem to think if I can't see her looking like someone beat the sh*t out of her then nothing happened, and I'm telling you something can be quick, and brutal and horrible without leaving very much physical evidence at all.



This is one of the reasons rape victims also don't like to go through the court process - some jerk-wad defense attorney is always going to pull the "Did she look like some one forced her?" crap on a bystander who's going to say, "Well, she was crying but she wasn't bleeding or bruised or anything" and then everyone's like well she OBVIOUSLY wasn't really raped then. It makes people think well, she must really have wanted it then because otherwise she would have fought harder. and would have looked worse.



It is a complete fabrication from too many movies portraying the violent aspect as opposed to the horrorifying lack of control aspect of it. Violent gang rapes are like the stranger kidnappings of children - they get the most press but are the least common.