209 réponses à ce sujet

[AdorableAnarchist]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

If you need visual evidence to "prove" that a rape occurred, by all means mod your little hearts out.

My complaint is you guys seem to think if I can't see her looking like someone beat the sh*t out of her then nothing happened, and I'm telling you something can be quick, and brutal and horrible without leaving very much physical evidence at all.

This is one of the reasons rape victims also don't like to go through the court process - some jerk-wad defense attorney is always going to pull the "Did she look like some one forced her?" crap on a bystander who's going to say, "Well, she was crying but she wasn't bleeding or bruised or anything" and then everyone's like well she OBVIOUSLY wasn't really raped then. It makes people think well, she must really have wanted it then because otherwise she would have fought harder. and would have looked worse.

It is a complete fabrication from too many movies portraying the violent aspect as opposed to the horrorifying lack of control aspect of it. Violent gang rapes are like the stranger kidnappings of children - they get the most press but are the least common.

Exactly. I staffed a rape hotline for a good long while and could tell stories of women who were raped that, when I took them for medical help, did not look as though anything had happened -- until you looked in their eyes.

[Sabriana]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

If you need visual evidence to "prove" that a rape occurred, by all means mod your little hearts out.

My complaint is you guys seem to think if I can't see her looking like someone beat the sh*t out of her then nothing happened, and I'm telling you something can be quick, and brutal and horrible without leaving very much physical evidence at all.

This is one of the reasons rape victims also don't like to go through the court process - some jerk-wad defense attorney is always going to pull the "Did she look like some one forced her?" crap on a bystander who's going to say, "Well, she was crying but she wasn't bleeding or bruised or anything" and then everyone's like well she OBVIOUSLY wasn't really raped then. It makes people think well, she must really have wanted it then because otherwise she would have fought harder. and would have looked worse.

It is a complete fabrication from too many movies portraying the violent aspect as opposed to the horrorifying lack of control aspect of it. Violent gang rapes are like the stranger kidnappings of children - they get the most press but are the least common.

You've been saying it, but no one seems to listen. I agree with you 100%. The "did she look like..." line is just as silly as the "she brought it on herself, look what she was wearing" line, and just as atrocious.

She is a slender elf, standing alone against 3 men. None of them need brute force to rape her, and if they were in cahoots then she is even more hopelessly overpowered without the need to 'rough her up'.

Rape is a real threat to women, all women, while people chopping each other's heads of is not - you don't see much of that going on, but rape is always out there, at all times. We women know very well that each and every one of us can become prey at any given moment, and it's downright terrifying.

[mousestalker]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's not like it's difficult to mod.

Make a copy of Shiani, edit her face with a few bruises..and as for the dress - you can make a new texture and basicly a new dress, with a few tatters. Voila.

That's one mod that I would not only never download, but I would actively petition against. The last thing the world needs is more accurate visual depictions of rape in a video game. Rape is devastating.

More details are not required to get the point across.

[elys]

Sabriana wrote...
You've been saying it, but no one seems to listen. I agree with you 100%. The "did she look like..." line is just as silly as the "she brought it on herself, look what she was wearing" line, and just as atrocious.

Yeah I hate this kind of reaction, people rejecting the fault on the victim because of her look or attitude.

Sabriana wrote...
Rape is a real threat to women, all women, while people chopping each other's heads of is not - you don't see much of that going on, but rape is always out there, at all times. We women know very well that each and every one of us can become prey at any given moment, and it's downright terrifying.

Wow, where do you live?

Rape rate is unfortunatly high (so to speak because even just one rape is too much)  here (France) but not to the point of being terrified.

Modifié par elys, 13 janvier 2010 - 03:27 .

[AntiChri5]

Anyone who ever even thinks "she brought it on herself" needs a very quick and very strong punch in the face. There are a lot cultures where that idea was the most common (thankfully almost all of these have woken the **** up in the last thousand years or so) and ive always found it the most pathetic "not our fault there is no problem lalalalalala" excuse ever. The worst thing is that some victims seem to think it themselves. I just can't imagine that kind of soul crushing helplessness and terror. The reason i think (or thought maybe) the scene should be stronger is that i dont want it to be possible for even one person to simply keep playing and not have to put down the controller for a while and go get a bucket just in case.



I can definately see why as it is it can be more than horrifying to women who have to live with the possobility (or even the reality) of rape. and why it could be financially suicidal.

[elys]

mousestalker wrote...

That's one mod that I would not only never download, but I would actively petition against. The last thing the world needs is more accurate visual depictions of rape in a video game. Rape is devastating.



More details are not required to get the point across.

To the contrary I think more details, or should I say arguments are needed to legitimate an act of censure (if that is what you mean by petitioning against it), whatever the subject involved.



A videogame has never aggressed anyone, simply because there is nothing real about it.

Whatever is happening in a videogame is purely fictional.

It's simply never happening. I dunno how to say simpler.



You may of course not like a type of game, but as long as nobody is forcing you to play it, what gives you the right to wanna control other people's game when they are not harming anyone in any way, unless you think that running a videogame on your computer is a crime?

[mousestalker]

I'm not advocating changing the laws. I do feel very strongly that changing the game to be more explicit in this regard is a bad idea. My goal is not to prevent you, or some hypothetical other person from creating a mod. My goal is to convince you that doing so is wrong, for any number of reasons.

[elys]

QUOTE-CONFUSION-MADNESS FOR ME.. now corrected

About DAO, yes like I said before I don't think a more depictated scene is suiting the game. But I don't care if someone does one.

But now I'm curious. You said you wanna convince me that such depiction in a videogame is wrong. I'm listening

EDIT: I'm continuing the discussion with mousetalker via PM.

Modifié par elys, 13 janvier 2010 - 04:25 .

[AntiChri5]

Have you guys heard of Rapelay? i stumbled onto a group discussion about whether it should be banned. From what little information i could tolerate finding on it, it seems to be a blatant hentai rape simulator....

[SarEnyaDor]

But Hentai... well alot of Japanese anime is .. weird and not-right ... tentacle pr0n school-girl demon rape orgies are really common.

Don't get. Don't want to get it.

[AntiChri5]

SarEnyaDor wrote...



But Hentai... well alot of Japanese anime is .. weird and not-right ... tentacle pr0n school-girl demon rape orgies are really common.

Don't get. Don't want to get it.

Point was it puts this in perspective. Anyone after THAT game is......indescribable on a site which censors naughty words.

[Addai]

All you should need in this scene is Shianni- brash, confident Shianni- saying in a trembling voice "please, I want to go home." There is such a thing as having a deeper impact by NOT showing obvious effects.

[Sabriana]

elys wrote...

Wow, where do you live?

Rape rate is unfortunatly high (so to speak because even just one rape is too much)  here (France) but not to the point of being terrified.

I was unclear it seems. The thought is terrifying, at least to me. I don't run around flinching at shadows, but I do tend to be real careful in some situations. It is unfortunate that sociey at large does not believe that "No" actually means "No".

Although it never happened to me (yet), I do know up-close and personal what rape can do to a woman. It's heart-breaking, to say the least. The poor elf lying on the floor in a fetal position and crying actually made me cringe, and I had to walk away from the computer for a while.

That's quite enough. More would be utterly cruel.

[Zenon]

The way Shianni is trembling and her voice sounds it was obvious she wasn't just beaten up, if at all. The humans wanted to have a party with the women, which more likely involves forced sex and not beating them up. Actually the origin description and the answer choice to King Cailan make it quite clear.



I was also a bit surprised to see all dressed and hoped, I came in time to prevent the worst from happening, but like I said it was obvious from the reactions of Shianni and Vaughn what happened. In my city elf origin, especially playing a female, he always dies on the spot. Wish, I could take more time...

[Zenon]

AdorableAnarchist wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

If you need visual evidence to "prove" that a rape occurred, by all means mod your little hearts out.

My complaint is you guys seem to think if I can't see her looking like someone beat the sh*t out of her then nothing happened, and I'm telling you something can be quick, and brutal and horrible without leaving very much physical evidence at all.

This is one of the reasons rape victims also don't like to go through the court process - some jerk-wad defense attorney is always going to pull the "Did she look like some one forced her?" crap on a bystander who's going to say, "Well, she was crying but she wasn't bleeding or bruised or anything" and then everyone's like well she OBVIOUSLY wasn't really raped then. It makes people think well, she must really have wanted it then because otherwise she would have fought harder. and would have looked worse.

It is a complete fabrication from too many movies portraying the violent aspect as opposed to the horrorifying lack of control aspect of it. Violent gang rapes are like the stranger kidnappings of children - they get the most press but are the least common.

Exactly. I staffed a rape hotline for a good long while and could tell stories of women who were raped that, when I took them for medical help, did not look as though anything had happened -- until you looked in their eyes.

+ This!

Completely agree with this post.

[AntiChri5]

My opinion is that for some it is possible to simply scowl and keep playing, something i dont think should happen whenever rape is perpresented.

[Kilyra]

I think a lot of people have quite the Hollywoodized view of what the after effects of a rape would be. Especially with her wearing a skirt, there is no need to remove clothes, and with just their size difference alone, there's no reason for her to have gotten bruises and such. Most rape situations leave the victim with no visible marks on the areas of their body anyone else would see (who are we to say she didn't end up with bruises on her legs and arms which she has covered). It is very rare that a lot of violence is involved (I'm from Canada so here anyhow)

As for needing bruises to support her "I told everyone I just got roughed up", it's pretty obvious to the women left behind when Shianni was taken out of the room that something happened to her (if I'm not mistaken they were just in the next room too)...so giving the roughed up explanation wouldn't necessarily be needed to explain marks, it's more to keep the truth to herself and explain what happened when she was taken away, leaving the other women thinking the PC arrived in the nick of time.

I don't think rape was trivialized at all, I think it was shown in a very real-life way both in the instant truth-hiding and the lack of physical evidence. I think to go over the top wouldn't just offend people, but add to this disturbing Hollywood glamour idea of always needing more to get a point across when really less is more, because that's a more chilling and accurate portrayal.

[AntiChri5]

Kilyra wrote...

I think a lot of people have quite the Hollywoodized view of what the after effects of a rape would be. Especially with her wearing a skirt, there is no need to remove clothes, and with just their size difference alone, there's no reason for her to have gotten bruises and such. Most rape situations leave the victim with no visible marks on the areas of their body anyone else would see (who are we to say she didn't end up with bruises on her legs and arms which she has covered). It is very rare that a lot of violence is involved (I'm from Canada so here anyhow)
As for needing bruises to support her "I told everyone I just got roughed up", it's pretty obvious to the women left behind when Shianni was taken out of the room that something happened to her (if I'm not mistaken they were just in the next room too)...so giving the roughed up explanation wouldn't necessarily be needed to explain marks, it's more to keep the truth to herself and explain what happened when she was taken away, leaving the other women thinking the PC arrived in the nick of time.
I don't think rape was trivialized at all, I think it was shown in a very real-life way both in the instant truth-hiding and the lack of physical evidence. I think to go over the top wouldn't just offend people, but add to this disturbing Hollywood glamour idea of always needing more to get a point across when really less is more, because that's a more chilling and accurate portrayal.

The most bruises would probably be on the waist/pelvis/hips generall area.

I have meat a lot of guys who would just breeze through that scene without being horrified, only angered, and anytime the depiction of rape doesnt disgust someone they become slightly more comfortable with it.

[Kilyra]

AntiChri5 wrote...

My opinion is that for some it is possible to simply scowl and keep playing, something i dont think should happen whenever rape is perpresented.

I do understand what you are saying, but can I just point out that it's possible to have the same "scowl and move on" reaction to any one of the other origins.  I mean with the human noble...the entire family is wiped out.  You walk around the estate and see all these people who are practicially family - raising you from childhood, all slain like cattle (not to mention your sister-in-law and nephew), and you are walking away from your parents for the last time while your father is gravely injured.  Personally I had tears in my eyes, it was so hard to take.  My boyfriend played the same origin and thought it sucked, but that was it.  It didn't hit him very hard.  All the elements are presented in that origin for you to take it either way - it's not like you see your parents' killing blow, or watch your own character break down at any point so it's easy to not take it to heart, and yet everything is shown there that you know exactly what's happening and if your the sort, it will hit you even without the added heart-wrenching parts.
Same goes for the rape.  If you are the type that would be hit hard by the concept, you will be even without adding more gusto  to the scene.  And if you aren't...then you aren't. You'll scowl and move on.  I don't think things should be exaggerated just to try and upset the person who will just scowl and move on...

[Sabriana]

Like I said before, an unarmed woman her size poses no challenges for three large men. No need to rough her up, unless they think it's part of the 'fun'.

I for one, am glad that they didn't show more. It was enough to see a strong woman break apart. That's close enough to real life, thank you very much.

In some of my play throughs I let Loghain live, but Vaughn and his cronies always die. How telling is that? Even if it meant losing an achievement or special item/talent/etc. he would still always die.

Heck, I can't even bring myself to let him live in any other origin. All my PCs kill him, be it in his palace or down in the prison cell. Metagaming? Perhaps. But he must die.

[AntiChri5]

Kilyra wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

My opinion is that for some it is possible to simply scowl and keep playing, something i dont think should happen whenever rape is perpresented.

I do understand what you are saying, but can I just point out that it's possible to have the same "scowl and move on" reaction to any one of the other origins.  I mean with the human noble...the entire family is wiped out.  You walk around the estate and see all these people who are practicially family - raising you from childhood, all slain like cattle (not to mention your sister-in-law and nephew), and you are walking away from your parents for the last time while your father is gravely injured.  Personally I had tears in my eyes, it was so hard to take.  My boyfriend played the same origin and thought it sucked, but that was it.  It didn't hit him very hard.  All the elements are presented in that origin for you to take it either way - it's not like you see your parents' killing blow, or watch your own character break down at any point so it's easy to not take it to heart, and yet everything is shown there that you know exactly what's happening and if your the sort, it will hit you even without the added heart-wrenching parts.
Same goes for the rape.  If you are the type that would be hit hard by the concept, you will be even without adding more gusto  to the scene.  And if you aren't...then you aren't. You'll scowl and move on.  I don't think things should be exaggerated just to try and upset the person who will just scowl and move on...

Good points. Though i would like to say there are situations where murder is justified (though VERY few when it is a slaughter involing a child) but rape can never be justified, never be anything more than needless barbaric cruelty of the lowest sort. As i have said before, perhaps i just need to be beaten over the head with it since as a guy i am far more removed from the concept of rape (it is not something i, personally will ever suffer through)

[AntiChri5]

Sabriana wrote...

Like I said before, an unarmed woman her size poses no challenges for three large men. No need to rough her up, unless they think it's part of the 'fun'.
I for one, am glad that they didn't show more. It was enough to see a strong woman break apart. That's close enough to real life, thank you very much.
In some of my play throughs I let Loghain live, but Vaughn and his cronies always die. How telling is that? Even if it meant losing an achievement or special item/talent/etc. he would still always die.
Heck, I can't even bring myself to let him live in any other origin. All my PCs kill him, be it in his palace or down in the prison cell. Metagaming? Perhaps. But he must die.

Fully agreed here. No bribe is getting him awayfrom my blade, Elf or not.

[SarEnyaDor]

Men can be raped, too. Ever seen Deliverance? But a woman could feasibly rape a man as well, as the body betrays us sometimes, responds to things we may not want to respond to... and there will always be people who say "well, you came, so you must have wanted it" and forget the fact that the mind can NOT always shut down the body's natural responses - can you think your way out of shivering, make your stomach stop growling, stop crapping in mid-crap? No.

[Kilyra]

AntiChri5...it sounds like you don't need to be beaten over the head for it at all, it seems to have bothered you just fine if you feel the need to kill the guy and his cronies every time no matter your actual origin! Some people won't be all that effected by it no matter how detailed the scene is though, maybe they have no experience with it and are just completely ignorant of how horrendous it can be, but adding more detail won't change that.

As for feeling the need for it to be more graphic, keep in mind all developers in any game where they want to bring in something that can be as sensitive as rape they have a careful game to play. They have to find a way to be in the middle between people like me who would be offended if it was more graphic, and people that want more. They don't want to alienate either group so they need to do enough to get the point across and not so much that they upset people. I think they did a good balancing act here...I find actually playing a storyline affects me much deeper than watching this happen on a movie for example, so for them to pull back a bit more than a movie director would is fair in my eyes too.