209 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

Then you are clearly trolling, because quite clearly the story is quite clear that Vaughan is not a good fighter, I'd barely even call him a competent fighter.

Are you just posting to raise post count or something?

[Herr Uhl]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Then you are clearly trolling, because quite clearly the story is quite clear that Vaughan is not a good fighter, I'd barely even call him a competent fighter.
Are you just posting to raise post count or something?

Meh, he doesn't get to thrash Loghain enough in the dozens of threads already dedicated to the subject.

[SarEnyaDor]

Other Origins?? LOL In other Origins all you know of him is he is some schmuck in a jail cell.

[AntiChri5]

Loghain is a national hero, instrumental in freeing Ferelden from 80 years of brutal foreign ocupation, a brilliant general and was the right hand man of a king.



Vaughn is a rich kid who gets his jollies by touring the slums and raping whatever spark of beauty manages to survive there.



Loghains recent actions may be inexcusable, but you cannot deny he can get **** done.



What the hell has Vaughn accomplished? He couldnt even take Shianni on his own, i mean just LOOK at the size difference.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Then you are clearly trolling, because quite clearly the story is quite clear that Vaughan is not a good fighter, I'd barely even call him a competent fighter.
Are you just posting to raise post count or something?

It is quite clear? I wasn't aware it is.

This is a curious thought experiment.
As long as you like a character, all his crimes can be forgiven and pretty much anything can be accepted. Hate a character, and the very idea of pardoning him is like an insult.

Oh, the irony.....

[AntiChri5]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Then you are clearly trolling, because quite clearly the story is quite clear that Vaughan is not a good fighter, I'd barely even call him a competent fighter.
Are you just posting to raise post count or something?

It is quite clear? I wasn't aware it is.

This is a curious thought experiment.
As long as you like a character, all his crimes can be forgiven and pretty much anything can be accepted. Hate a character, and the very idea of pardoning him is like an insult.

Oh, the irony.....

Rape can never be justified. EVER.

Loghain always though he was acting in Fereldens best interest.

[ReubenLiew]

You must be quite dim.

He gets knocked out by Shianni. A competent fighter would've been able to handle himself well enough to not have been suckered like that.

He cannot fight off a wet-behind the ears elf with his 2 friends behind him.



It's nothing to do with morality. A Grey Warden recruits first and foremost the most capable warriors they can find. Why in the world would you think Vaughan is a candidate is beyond me. If you had argued, like a logical person, that IF Vaughan was actually a beefy meat cake with skills the envy of other men, THEN you can make an argument whether or not he's valid to join the Wardens considering his bad habits.

A thought experiment requires you to actually think, you know.

[BSBNess]

Loghain was into slave trading which people seem to forget every time they defend Loghain. And to me that will forever cancel out anything. And because he was thinking he was having Ferelden's best interest in mind doesn't mean that everything bad he has done cancels out.

[SarEnyaDor]

deleted because somehow I double posted when I refreshed....

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 14 janvier 2010 - 02:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Rape can never be justified. EVER.

Loghain always though he was acting in Fereldens best interest.

Humans can justify anything, I though we covered that before.

And what Loghain thought is irrelevant. As I said before - the mark of evil is the willingness to cross the line. And he crossed it. Several times. But this is no about Loghain. In fact, we're drifting a bit too much from the topic.
So le'ts return to it, shall we?

[Sabriana]

Aside from that, Jory was an excellent fighter. His backing out came later after seeing Daveth fall.



Duncan made a misjudgment there, because he didn't know how much Jory treasured 'honor' and 'glory', and that he never fully realized that he would have to leave wife and unborn babe behind.



Jory wasn't GW material, but that was because of psychological reasons. Physically, there was nothing wrong with Jory. He cut a swath through the darkspawn in the Wilds, and never hesitated or cowered before an actual enemy (his blubbering when encountering the wounded scout not withstanding). He also never let himself be suckered in by the darkspawn rogues, he was right on top of them cutting them into bits with his sword.



Vaughn was a weakling and a coward. He was as much Grey Warden material as the old woman standing by the Chantry making a restaurant menu out of the Chant of Light.



Correction. I'd take the old sister over Vaughn anytime. At least she made me laugh out loud.

[AntiChri5]

BSBNess wrote...

Loghain was into slave trading which people seem to forget every time they defend Loghain. And to me that will forever cancel out anything. And because he was thinking he was having Ferelden's best interest in mind doesn't mean that everything bad he has done cancels out.

The difference is Loghain is usefull.

[SarEnyaDor]

Okay - this thread was about whether or not the rape scene needed more graphic representations of the after-effects of rape to make it convincing....

It seems that no matter what people who have real life experience have tried to convey, a certain type of person still needs their Hollywood-style slash to really get it. Fine, mod it.

All other sillines is just rather insulting to the original poster's concerns and all the serious dialogue that tried to take place here.

[AntiChri5]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
Rape can never be justified. EVER.

Loghain always though he was acting in Fereldens best interest.

Humans can justify anything, I though we covered that before.

And what Loghain thought is irrelevant. As I said before - the mark of evil is the willingness to cross the line. And he crossed it. Several times. But this is no about Loghain. In fact, we're drifting a bit too much from the topic.
So le'ts return to it, shall we?

In what way is rape ever justifiable? Seriously.

[ejoslin]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Other Origins?? LOL In other Origins all you know of him is he is some schmuck in a jail cell.

Not if you talk to Soris -- he tells you what happened if you ask him.

[Sabriana]

Everything in that origin is chilling, and spirals into the most chilling of all, the rape of Shianni. It needs nothing else to give me a terrible feeling and utter hatred for Vaughn.

The hopelessness and helplessness of the elves is very well shown, as is the contempt the so called heir shows for the elven population. Not only is such a strong woman as Shianni violated, but reduced to a mere 'toy' for the weakling noble coward.

I don't need to see more, what was offered was quite enough.



Yeah, my HN ran across Soris in his house, and felt perfectly justified letting her murder knife jump into action in regards to Vaughn.

[SarEnyaDor]

It's been a while, I thought Soris just said there was some fighting at a wedding and that lead to the uprising in the Alienage but that he wasn't sure what all happened because he'd been in there for such a long time --

But still you have some strange elf you don't know saying Vaughn did bad thigs, Vaughn is snoring in jail, do the Grey Wardens just troll all the jails now and offer all the convicts they know little to nothing about a bit of tainted blood now?

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 14 janvier 2010 - 02:50 .

[JosieJ]

Sabriana wrote...

Everything in that origin is chilling, and spirals into the most chilling of all, the rape of Shianni. It needs nothing else to give me a terrible feeling and utter hatred for Vaughn.
The hopelessness and helplessness of the elves is very well shown, as is the contempt the so called heir shows for the elven population.

Rather too well--that origin is so emotionally wrenching that everything else seems a letdown.  It doesn't help that no one else that you ever encounter is quite so contemptuous of elves--it's quite jarring to get to Ostagar and have practically everyone treat you with respect, even if they have no reason to know you're a Grey Warden.  The worst you encounter is a bullying coward of a quartermaster, who quickly backs down, and a slightly dismissive ash warrior.

While I have no major complaints about the way Bioware implemented relations between the races, I still find myself wishing they'd seen fit to kick the racism up a small notch--maybe throw in a few more racist minor NPCs, or have some of the major, questgiving NPCs more wary of an elf PC until s/he proves his/herself.  (Bioware has no one but themselves to blame for raised expectations--their excellent writing and the brilliant, brilliant voice acting from even the minor NPCs made that origin the emotional rollercoaster it was!)

[ToJKa1]

Even as a man, that scene, as it is, conveyed well enough what had happened. If all of them had been in their underwear in that scene it would have been a lot stronger, but IMO it was strong enough already. Never before have i enjoyed killing a person in a game so much. Not even Howe, even though the reason for human noble PC wanting him dead is stronger and more personal.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aparently, the GW's take all kinds of murders and cowards...so Vaughn wouldn't be an exception.

If it's OK to take in Loghain, then it's OK to take in Vaughn. After all, L torture,d killed and betrayed thousands. What's that compared to Vaughns crimes?

While off topic, I'd agree, they took Alistair.

However, at least Alistair isn't preying on the weak to make himself feel strong.  Vaughn is not GW material, and is either dead, or left to rot in his own dungeon.  As a City Elf, he never survives the encounter, and from a Dalish point of view, he deserves no better, this with only the word of Soris, and talking to him in the dungeon.  Attempting to recruit him would give us our second Ser Jory, only this time, we'd get to be the ones with the Murder Knife, only I don't think I'd be saying "I'm sorry" when I plunged the knife home.

I still don't see that the scene needed anything else to convey what happened.  All this talk of modding it to reflect what transpired is nonsense, at best.  The fact that the woman that bottled Vaughn, despite it seeming to be 3 on 1 at the time is a broken mess on the floor, crying to go home, is enough for me.  The only way it can be brought into doubt about what happened is if you totally ignore the lead up to the scene in the Alienage.

[th3warr1or]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

Isn't rape shown graphically in plenty of movies and TV though? The movie Deliverance comes to mind, and if I recall Jodie Foster did some a movie or two where she is a rape victim who becomes like a vigilante or something, I didn't see the movie, but I'm guessing they didn't fade to black during the rape part. Of course Movies and TV can probably get away with a lot more than video games for some reason, I guess because in a movie or TV show you're merely observing, while in a video game you can participate via your character. But then again even if you can't decide how the movie or TV show goes, I think you can participate in the movie and the show through the characters and actors, or at the very least kind of live through them.

Irreversible.. >.> Monica Bellucci.

[th3warr1or]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
Rape can never be justified. EVER.

Loghain always though he was acting in Fereldens best interest.

Humans can justify anything, I though we covered that before.

And what Loghain thought is irrelevant. As I said before - the mark of evil is the willingness to cross the line. And he crossed it. Several times. But this is no about Loghain. In fact, we're drifting a bit too much from the topic.
So le'ts return to it, shall we?

No. Humans can ATTEMPT to justify anything, but things like rape is NEVER justified. If you want revenge, you kill the man that killed your family, not rape his daughter.

[Estelindis]

LadySeryn wrote...

I personally thought BioWare handled this whole scene very, very well.

Agree with you here, as well as with everyone else who has praised Shianni's VA for that "take me home" line.  To me, as to many others, the contrast between her boldness up to that point and her brokenness there made it very clear what had happened.

Can't say I agree here, though:

LadySeryn wrote...
The elves are used to being treated poorly, and Shianni is a very strong person.  Shianni would have known what was going to happen, and she would have known that the same or worse would happen to her friends and family once the Arl's son and his men were finished with her.  I think Shianni's character would not have resited very much, knowing that the three armed men and the guards outside would simply kill her and move on to her friends and family.  I believe her character would have sacrificed herself and not put up much of a fight in order to spare her friends and family as much pain as possible.

Really?  Shianni?  When you play female city elf and wake up after the kidnapping, both Valora and the unnamed elven bridesmaid (not Nola) recommend giving Vaughan what he wants on the grounds that it'll be worse if they resist.  To which Shianni responds: "It'll be worse if we don't!"  She never advocates just going with the flow, and it's not because she's selfish and isn't thinking of those families and loved ones you mentioned.  She truly doesn't believe cooperation is in the best interests of her people.  She makes this very clear when you come back to the alienage and some people attack you for causing trouble by resisting - Shianni defends you very strongly at this point. 

Obviously, when it comes to rape, it's not a simple case of bad girls don't fight and good girls do.  It's a question of fear, number one, and of what you believe the consequences will be, number two.  And I don't think there's a simple formula for either of those things.  I thought Bioware portrayed the situation fairly well there, with the contract between Shianni and Valora+bridesmaid.  They all advance reasons for their attitudes.  Both are reasons that real women in those situations have reported for their resistance or non-resistance.

[countersubject]

To answer the original two questions: 1: i approve. I'm not remotely interested in any details. The game says she was raped, that means she was raped, no graphics necessary, not even that she has no clothes. I understand computer games move to the realm of virtual reality, and i also understand that explicit content will most likely be shown in more detail in the future, but i have no interest in that, it's a conceptual thing for me. As i said, the game suggests that she was raped, that's all i need to know.
2: I don't know of any.

Modifié par countersubject, 14 janvier 2010 - 05:58 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Oh yes.... anal rape of a woman by a gay man *IS* the best and most realistic example of real world rape situations....



*shakes head and leaves this thread muttering unkind things about Hollywood and its influence*