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Beheadings? YES!! After effects of rape? Not so much


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#176
LadySeryn

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Estelindis wrote...

Really?  Shianni?  When you play female city elf and wake up after the kidnapping, both Valora and the unnamed elven bridesmaid (not Nola) recommend giving Vaughan what he wants on the grounds that it'll be worse if they resist.  To which Shianni responds: "It'll be worse if we don't!"  She never advocates just going with the flow, and it's not because she's selfish and isn't thinking of those families and loved ones you mentioned.  She truly doesn't believe cooperation is in the best interests of her people.  She makes this very clear when you come back to the alienage and some people attack you for causing trouble by resisting - Shianni defends you very strongly at this point.

You may be right, but I don't think Shianni's as simple a character as this.  I don't think she would blindly get into a physical fight with Vaughn and his cronies that she knows she can't win, despite what she says to the others.

Shianni is definitely a fighter.  She believes her people are equal to the humans, and should not be treated as slaves or as an inferior race.  She will fight for what's best for her people at all costs.  However, when she instructs the others to fight and says "It will be worse if we don't!", it's because she knows that if the other elves are willing to simply give in without any sort of fight (which they already admitted to) , then the humans will just keep treating the elves poorly.  She says that line to encourage the others to have the same strength she does to stand up for what's right.

But she's also a very smart character.  She's not the type of character that will willfully throw her life away in a pointless fight where she has no chance of winning.  She will not do like the other elf does and attack a gang of armed guards, only to be quickly slaughtered.  She will fight, she will resist in her own way.  But at a certain point, I think she is the type of character that would sacrifice herself to protect the others instead of making a valiant, though ultimately meaningless stand.  By sacrificing herself and bearing the pain so that the others don't have to, by giving the other elves strength and a reason to fight, she is still fighting the humans, though not in a purely physical way.

I can picture her struggling all the way to the back room with Vaughn.  I can picture her doing what she can to make it difficult for him.  But I don't picture her taking unecessary risks, or starting a physical fight that she has no hope of winning.  If she dies, then who will continue to fight for elven rights?  I picture her resisting in her own way, shutting out what is happening to her while she looks for the opportunity kill Vaughn or to gain a real advantage.  An opportunity that, sadly, never came.

That's what I took away from it anyway.  I must admit that it has been a while since I played through the Female City Elf origin though, and perhaps I'm not remembering the details of the story as clearly as you are.

Obviously, when it comes to rape, it's not a simple case of bad girls don't fight and good girls do.  It's a question of fear, number one, and of what you believe the consequences will be, number two.  And I don't think there's a simple formula for either of those things.

And I think this is why the way BioWare presented the scene works so well.  We each have different interpretations of what events transpired between the time that Shianni was taken away and the time she was rescued, and both of our interpretations can fit into the game.

In art, it's often the things that are left unsaid, the stories left untold, that can have the biggest impact on the viewer, because it leaves us free to imagine the best (or worst) story that has the most meaning to us personally.  In many ways, by not showing us more visual clues as to what happened, BioWare has made the story that much more powerful.

Modifié par LadySeryn, 14 janvier 2010 - 09:19 .


#177
Tae Jir

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I never realized the depth of discussion that would be reached by my OP.

I am reminded of the first time my sister visited me at my new urban digs and asked me to walk her to the bus. It was late, there was a couple of dark quiet blocks for her to walk, and I was shocked at her reality. Never doubtful, just shocked.

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Just a point, all rapes don't have to involve beatings, a strong man can restrain a small woman and have his way with her without ripping her clothes off or bloodying her mouth/blackening her eye. So unless you wanna show close ups of intimate damage or spend some time doing the psychological damage afterward I think the scene is more than efficient at getting the point across as to what happened.


I have thought a lot about this topic and the various comments. I have gone back and forth on how I feel. It was certainly never my intention to suggest anything graphic was necessary. But I think I'm sticking to my original posting: in a visual medium, looks count. And I think that once the voice acting kicks in, the emotional impact hits hard. But I still think the voice acting has to overcome the hurdle of the visuals not clueing us in. I think my first thought in this case was "Not even mussed?!" 

But I also think it could be a case of my 'OCD.'  It also upsets me when you have a fight and the servents just keep on washing the floor, or you loot in front of people and nothing happens. Its the incongruity that bugs me.

#178
Wynne

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I think if her hair had been mussed, her face covered with tears and her sleeve ripped with maybe a tear in the bottom of her dress, that would have been more than enough without any need for anything truly ugly--no blood, nothing that punches you in the face, just the gut. And I agree about the servants ignoring you. It breaks immersion a bit. I mean, the way things are I still kill Vaughn a lot... but if Shianni had looked even a little worse than she did, and acted sort of broken still later on in the game, I would feel about four times the impact and kill him EVERY time.

There are subtler ways to show distress and pain than nudity and blood, though--ways which are equally realistic. I agree that it could've been more emotional, but I think it's important not to do anything so overt that it could be painful for players. I know a guy who was gang-raped... I wouldn't EVER want him to relive that in a visceral way if he played DA. So I really have to say, I like the idea of making scenes emotionally impacting and immersive... but if it's too ugly, too violent a rape... you have to take into account that you don't know who's been forced to experience such horrible powerlessness, and you have to treat the material with careful sensitivity. Painful implications are more than enough without seeming to force the victim in the story to experience even more exposure, horror, and humiliation than they already have.

Modifié par Wynne, 15 janvier 2010 - 12:23 .


#179
Estelindis

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LadySeryn wrote...
You may be right, but I don't think Shianni's as simple a character as this.  <snip>  She's not the type of character that will willfully throw her life away in a pointless fight where she has no chance of winning.  She will not do like the other elf does and attack a gang of armed guards, only to be quickly slaughtered. 

This is a fair point.  One can just as easily draw a contrast between Shianni and Nola as between Shianni and Valora. 

Now, I must say that I think the main reason for Nola's death was a meta-game reason: the devs were showing the PC what would have happened to her if she resisted without a weapon (if Soris hadn't showed up with Duncan's sword).  In the same manner of the backhander that we never got the chance to dodge, it was a plot necessity.  (Ditto Daveth's and Jory's deaths later on, btw - to demonstrate what else could happen and create a contrast between unsuccessful NPCs and the PC.  But I disgress.)  Now, the problem with this is that, while I see this as a player, it's still reality in the PC's world, and has to be reconciled with actual characters and motivations there.  So I just have to accept that, for Shianni, resisting a group of armed and armoured guards would not have seemed sensible.  And fair enough: that's not too much of a stretch of the imagination.  Shianni is, as you say, an intelligent woman.  Why seek a pointless death? 

What I can't accept is a Shianni-suffering-for-our-sins situation!  (I'm exaggerating a little for humorous purposes here, not trying to put words in your mouth.)

LadySeryn wrote...
I think she is the type of character that would sacrifice herself to protect the others instead of making a valiant, though ultimately meaningless stand.  By sacrificing herself and bearing the pain so that the others don't have to, by giving the other elves strength and a reason to fight, she is still fighting the humans, though not in a purely physical way.


I think Shianni has very little patience for those who believe non-resistance is the best way for elves to get by, and is unlikely to pander to that point of view by suffering so they don't have to.  I'd be far more likely to believe she'd think a trouble shared is a trouble halved, so to speak: elves should bear their hardships together, and deal with the consequences of any resistance as a united people, rather than, say, a scapegoat being set apart to suffer while others just get on with their lives.  And I don't think that, if she has this attitude, it's a simple one, less complex than the one you put forward.  I just think it's different.

LadySeryn wrote...
I can picture her struggling all the way to the back room with Vaughn.  I can picture her doing what she can to make it difficult for him.  But I don't picture her taking unecessary risks, or starting a physical fight that she has no hope of winning.  If she dies, then who will continue to fight for elven rights?  I picture her resisting in her own way, shutting out what is happening to her while she looks for the opportunity kill Vaughn or to gain a real advantage.  An opportunity that, sadly, never came.

That mostly makes sense to me.  I don't believe she would act in a way that she'd think likely to cause her needless death - just because, as I said already, she's no martyr.  She's a survivor.  I'm more going for the angle that she might think that she's likely to be killed after being raped, so it's worth resisting even if it leads to mortal danger.  Rape + murder is worse than just murder - but she's not *looking* to be murdered to avoid rape.  Does that make sense?

Anyway, I guess I agree with a lot of what you say, just disagree on a few specifics. 

Bioware did convey this quite well overall with the voice acting and Shianni's posture.  I'm sure that, if they'd had more of an art budget for that particular moment, they *might* have added some further (non-vulgar) indication of what had happened.  But, on the other hand, there are many cases where less is more, and, in spite of some people missing out on the truth as a result, I think this is probably one of them.

#180
kgav

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See how long that skirt was? well ever see a hockey fight where they pull the hockey jersey over the other guys head? well the pulled the skirt over her head I guess.

there were 3 of them and one of her, they didn't have to tear her cloths off. They were able to restrain her easily. But the scene was ambiguous at first. I didn't know what happened, I was confused and then I unleashed hell upon those honor less dogs and slaughtered them.

Modifié par kgav, 15 janvier 2010 - 05:25 .


#181
SarEnyaDor

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I really enjoy how strenuously people who obviously have never had any experience with rape (personal or otherwise) argue about what should have happened based on movies that taught them everything they needed to know about the subject....  

Because you know - no picture means it didn't happen Image IPB

#182
mousestalker

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SarEnyaDor wrote...

I really enjoy how strenuously people who obviously have never had any experience with rape (personal or otherwise) argue about what should have happened based on movies that taught them everything they needed to know about the subject....  

Because you know - no picture means it didn't happen Image IPB


Best comment on this thread for pages.

#183
Estelindis

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SarEnyaDor wrote...

I really enjoy how strenuously people who obviously have never had any experience with rape (personal or otherwise) argue about what should have happened

Sorry, who is this aimed at?  I'm going to assume it wasn't aimed at me - but, on the chance it was...  Thank God, I've never been raped, but I have given an amount of thought to what I would do if I was in a number of possible situations with one or more attackers trying to do such a thing.  I've done self-defence for many years, so there's an amount of practice behind that thought.   I've also read about survivors' experiences (after they offered various levels of compliance or resistance) as well as interviews with rapists in which they described how they chose their victims.   Now, while I don't want to create (or underline) a gender divide, I think that a lot of women do give this some consideration, even if they've never come into close contact with rape themselves.  If one might be in danger of it happening, then one owes it to oneself not to keep one's head in the sand.  I don't know how much this is true of men, though - I mean, to what extent does a guy think "this is something that could happen to me"?  (And, of course, this is leaving aside the issue of it happening to a loved one.)

#184
cynicalsaint1

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Honestly up until I started reading posts in forums and the such, I didn't think anyone had been raped. Shianni being clothed when I arrived gave me the impression that I had arrive in time to stop the act, then I proceeded to think it was a bit strange how upset she was considering that we managed to save her and all, but figured well "She was about to get raped, so I guess it makes sense"

#185
kgav

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had I know what had just happened when I walk into the room I wouldn't have even talked to the guy, I would have cut his throat and beheaded his two henchmen while he lay on the floor dying. Instead I felt a bit of a fool for talking to him at all.

#186
Tirigon

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Tae Jir wrote...

So if you have played this story, you know of the kidnapping of our Elven women by the baddies and of our heroic rescue of same.

All good so far. What I find curious, is that when the elven women are kidnapped, one killed and one raped, the brutalized one is shown totally clothed and not even messed up!

Considering the sex and violence in this game, it must have been a deliberate design choice. So I have two questions:

Do you support this choice?
Was there anything else in the game like this?

Me: I think it stupid. I certainly wouldn't want too much realism here, I think that might have shocked me out of the game frame of mind, but come on! not even mussed?



Yes, it´s unrealistic, a bit.
But I think this was quite the most emotive and, if you choose to kill this sucker Vaughan, most satisfying moment in the game anyways. So I don´t mind.
Actually, better like that than to have it censored for sexual violence.
Not to mention that I prefer to see Shianni beautiful and unhurt instead of "messed up".

#187
AnniLau

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cynicalsaint1 wrote...

Honestly up until I started reading posts in forums and the such, I didn't think anyone had been raped. Shianni being clothed when I arrived gave me the impression that I had arrive in time to stop the act, then I proceeded to think it was a bit strange how upset she was considering that we managed to save her and all, but figured well "She was about to get raped, so I guess it makes sense"

If you go say goodbye to her before you leave with Duncan, she says something about not wanting the others to know what really happened...I did already believe she had been raped before I got there and that just confirmed it.

Modifié par AnniLau, 15 janvier 2010 - 05:49 .


#188
Tirigon

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kgav wrote...

See how long that skirt was? well ever see a hockey fight where they pull the hockey jersey over the other guys head? well the pulled the skirt over her head I guess.

there were 3 of them and one of her, they didn't have to tear her cloths off. They were able to restrain her easily. But the scene was ambiguous at first. I didn't know what happened, I was confused and then I unleashed hell upon those honor less dogs and slaughtered them.


Best thing to do. Rapists should get death sentence immediately.

#189
SarEnyaDor

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My comments aren't truly aimed at anyone in specific, as I like to avoid flame wars. LOL

It's aimed at the mindset that some possess.

What kind of party did they think Vaughn was throwing that he needed to kidnap elven girls for? Seriously, do guys normally go and kidnap people for book readings and parlor games? If Shianni had been rescued in the nick of time don't you think she'd be jubilant and all "In your face Vaughn! Guess you *can't* just do whatever you want afterall, biotch!" not curled in a ball crying??

And all the references to one of the worst movies ever made (Irreversible) as to you want to see what rape is go and watch this are blood boiling. It is an F'ed up movie with one of the most absurd and least likely to ever happen scenarios. Most rapes aren't the violent gang rape where the woman is beaten to a bloody pulp as some of posters seem to assume - this assumption drives them to NEED to see more evidence than what is already presented.

I'm mostly just irked at the misperception out there that if you don't look like your face was smashed on the floor you weren't "really" raped and that not showing more carnage made it hard to get what happened.

I really don't know why I keep coming back to this thread when it clearly pisses me off so much - I guess I think if I say something enough it will sink in, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 15 janvier 2010 - 06:04 .


#190
xgiovedi

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cynicalsaint1 wrote...

Honestly up until I started reading posts in forums and the such, I didn't think anyone had been raped. Shianni being clothed when I arrived gave me the impression that I had arrive in time to stop the act, then I proceeded to think it was a bit strange how upset she was considering that we managed to save her and all, but figured well "She was about to get raped, so I guess it makes sense"


I agree. I thought I'd gotten there ahead of time and Vaughn was beating her up or belittiling her. Emotional abuse and trauma is a harsh mistress. That's why I thought Shianni was on the floor and so bothered... because of the thought that could happen but not the actual act.

Also, unless I missed it, Shianni doesn't bluntly say "He raped me". You know that was absolutely Vaughn's intention. I didn't need visual clues (which may be lost anyway depending on your graphics setting and what platform you're playing on) but since she didn't say it, I just assumed she was scarred from the experience.

I don't think it's really fair to say "If you haven't gone through it, then you don't know". Because I've never been an elf living in Dererim that's had to go through such harassment by humans :unsure:

#191
Guest_Feraele_*

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Creature 1 wrote...

Tae Jir wrote...
Do you support this choice?

Yes.  Rape is actually way more common than you'd think, and, yes, has aftereffects that last for years.  I imagine the devs didn't want to make that scene to graphic because it would be emotional nitroglycerine for a minority of their customers.  That origin is already highly emotionally loaded for any player, the voice acting alone made me want to hurt someone.  I think portraying the scene in more detail would just be upsetting for a lot of people, and raise concerns about excessively exploiting what is really a tragic event for entertainment's sake. 



This.

#192
GmanFresh

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i think the rape is more \\clear if you play the male elf version of the story

#193
Xandurpein

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SarEnyaDor wrote...

My comments aren't truly aimed at anyone in specific, as I like to avoid flame wars. LOL

It's aimed at the mindset that some possess.

What kind of party did they think Vaughn was throwing that he needed to kidnap elven girls for? Seriously, do guys normally go and kidnap people for book readings and parlor games? If Shianni had been rescued in the nick of time don't you think she'd be jubilant and all "In your face Vaughn! Guess you *can't* just do whatever you want afterall, biotch!" not curled in a ball crying??

And all the references to one of the worst movies ever made (Irreversible) as to you want to see what rape is go and watch this are blood boiling. It is an F'ed up movie with one of the most absurd and least likely to ever happen scenarios. Most rapes aren't the violent gang rape where the woman is beaten to a bloody pulp as some of posters seem to assume - this assumption drives them to NEED to see more evidence than what is already presented.

I'm mostly just irked at the misperception out there that if you don't look like your face was smashed on the floor you weren't "really" raped and that not showing more carnage made it hard to get what happened.

I really don't know why I keep coming back to this thread when it clearly pisses me off so much - I guess I think if I say something enough it will sink in, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.


I think that everyone knows exactly what was going to happen at that disgusting so-called party. Some players have however assumed they managed to intervene in time before the actual rape. I will give you credit that some players may need to think a bit about their reactions, as if you take the time to ask Shianni she will tell you very clearly what happened to her. Good point.

In defence of those who didn't understand or took the time to find out what happened however, there is several factors in the game that may have made it easy to misinterpret things that has nothing with your attitude or understanding of rape to do, such as difficulty in gauging time in the cutscenes and the fact that you are sort of conditioned playing games to be the hero who can stop bad things in time.

#194
SusanStoHelit

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I don't know why I came back again either, after responding early on and getting hammered. But I didn't want a little more visual cues because I thought all women who've been raped have been bashed. I wanted them because Shianni's EXCUSE is that she's been bashed. If the writers allow Shianni to hide the rape by saying that she was just 'roughed up', then she needs to look a bit 'roughed up' - or it just doesn't work. Simple really.



If they didn't want to upset people by showing a more 'damaged' Shianni - or it cost too much money or time to include a bruise or scratch or two and maybe a slightly torn dress - then fine, just don't give her lines indicating that she was beaten but not raped.

#195
Gold Dragon

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My first real meeting with Shianni was as a Human Noblewoman. Something in Shianni's Attitude spoke of pain, deeply hidden, but there (speaking as the Player, not as the PC Warden).



When as a female City Elf, I entered the room, I knew immediately (again as player). Vaughan died so swiftly I don't think he even realized it.

#196
Creature 1

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SusanStoHelit wrote...

I don't know why I came back again either, after responding early on and getting hammered. But I didn't want a little more visual cues because I thought all women who've been raped have been bashed. I wanted them because Shianni's EXCUSE is that she's been bashed. If the writers allow Shianni to hide the rape by saying that she was just 'roughed up', then she needs to look a bit 'roughed up' - or it just doesn't work. Simple really.

If they didn't want to upset people by showing a more 'damaged' Shianni - or it cost too much money or time to include a bruise or scratch or two and maybe a slightly torn dress - then fine, just don't give her lines indicating that she was beaten but not raped.

You pull that guy off the rack in Howe's basement and he's the picture of health.  Some stuff you just have to use your imagination. 

#197
Lotion Soronarr

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th3warr1or wrote...

Humans can justify anything, I though we covered that before.

And what Loghain thought is irrelevant. As I said before - the mark of evil is the willingness to cross the line. And he crossed it. Several times. But this is no about Loghain. In fact, we're drifting a bit too much from the topic.
So le'ts return to it, shall we?


No. Humans can ATTEMPT to justify anything, but things like rape is NEVER justified. If you want revenge, you kill the man that killed your family, not rape his daughter.


Of course it isn't. Not to me, not to you...and not in reality.
But the tragedy is that some humans will justify that actions to themselves and will find a few crackpots that will agree. They will twist and turn, fabricate or be deliberately blind to facts to accomodate their views.

They WILL find a way to justify it. They have done so in the past for rape and many other, even more henious things.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 janvier 2010 - 11:17 .


#198
Bootsykk

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As fantasized as it is, usually rape victims don't have much clothing removed at all. oftentimes undergarmets aren't even removed, just pushed aside.



One, this is because usually rape victims, you know, don't want to be raped, and can't have their clothes easily removed while fending off from their attacker. The point in clothes being removed during sex is something intimate. Rape is not intimate, nor enjoyable.

#199
Tirigon

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Of course it isn't. Not to me, not to you...and not in reality.
But the tragedy is that some humans will justify that actions to themselves and will find a few crackpots that will agree. They will twist and turn, fabricate or be deliberately blind to facts to accomodate their views.

They WILL find a way to justify it. They have done so in the past for rape and many other, even more henious things.


Many people got their brain to cool the blood. They think with their backside. And THAT´s the reason for all evil in this world.

#200
legbamel

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SusanStoHelit wrote...

I don't know why I came back again either, after responding early on and getting hammered. But I didn't want a little more visual cues because I thought all women who've been raped have been bashed. I wanted them because Shianni's EXCUSE is that she's been bashed. If the writers allow Shianni to hide the rape by saying that she was just 'roughed up', then she needs to look a bit 'roughed up' - or it just doesn't work. Simple really.

If they didn't want to upset people by showing a more 'damaged' Shianni - or it cost too much money or time to include a bruise or scratch or two and maybe a slightly torn dress - then fine, just don't give her lines indicating that she was beaten but not raped.


That was my thought as well--if we're going to say she was just beaten up, shouldn't she be beaten up?  I suppose one could argue that she was hit/hurt in places covered by her clothes but a bruise from being grapped on her already-exposed shoulder doesn't sound like an over-the-top mod to make that cover story work.

Edited to add that it was completely obvious to me that the deed had been done from her position on the floor, even before I spoke to anyone.  Vaughn died the slowest death I could give him, the SOB.

Modifié par legbamel, 16 janvier 2010 - 12:11 .