202 réponses à ce sujet

[january42]

That's because melee is poorly represented in the game in general. That's no fault of the Infiltrator. And the Asari melee is stronger because her cloak got buffed to compensate for it not working how it was supposed to originally (giving weapon damage bonus) and Krogan melee was just made weak.

And Infiltrators (like I said 2-3 of them) are the best at single target DPS. But all of the others can be matched unless you're going to snipe. Other characters outdo them as far as utility as well.

The problem is there single target DPS is far and away the most common. Your only outnumbered 2 -1 not counting summons. So it's actually pretty tough to catch enemies in groups.   and yeah, there isn't much melee. I don't think melee was ever really intended to be a part of the game. The few classes actually designed for it (Shadow and Krolord) are both pretty decent however. Krolord would be good aside from the fat that even minor lag makes it hard to avoid synch kills.

[BeardyMcGoo]

Rad_Rage wrote...

And when I mentioned biotics, I was referring to being able to quickly set off consecutive biotic explosions. Same with tech. By the time a Huntress' DC kills a Banshee, you could have already killed 2 of them with a HS + Claymore.

The huntress can set off BE's just about as fast as the vanilla human adept. And would run into the same problem with her warp when the banshee F-You bubble goes up once her barriers are down. Except she has an instant primer to more effectively make use of warp ammo so her bubble doesn't activate.

[K_O_513]

BeardyMcGoo wrote...

Rad_Rage wrote...

And when I mentioned biotics, I was referring to being able to quickly set off consecutive biotic explosions. Same with tech. By the time a Huntress' DC kills a Banshee, you could have already killed 2 of them with a HS + Claymore.

The huntress can set off BE's just about as fast as the vanilla human adept. And would run into the same problem with her warp when the banshee F-You bubble goes up once her barriers are down. Except she has an instant primer to more effectively make use of warp ammo so her bubble doesn't activate.

Same case with the Fury except she sets off BEs faster.

[MichaelFinnegan]

january42 wrote...

I pretty much agree with your reasoning, and that is what I was getting at, in a way.

The problem is.....your basicly locked on tiny maps with a fixed number of superior enemies till the wave budget runs out. DPS is all there is.

This is more of a problem with the current gen consoles to my knowledge. Hopefully, ME4 will not be saddled with this constraint.

Now, I every single wave was an objective wave (spreading the money out) there would be more call for utility infiltrators. Even then, infiltrators are only really better than anyone else at one of the possible objectives. The problem is.....there is nothing to infiltrate.

Pretty much.

Also, I think people wouldn't mind the infiltrators as much if the scoring system wasn't biased in their favor. Infiltrators thing is really burst damage.   And the scoring system massivly rewards killshots. High burst damage= more killshots= more score.   If they fixed the scoring system I think it there would be less of a problem. I admit that scoring is difficult however.   The Juggernaut is probably the most obvious cases of that. They can make platinum pretty easy if the team just stays with them...but their score will be terrible.

I do think fixing the scoring would get rid of alot of the problems. If infiltrators could fulfill their role (killing stuff) without also getting epeen boosts i think we would get less angst about them.

The scoring system is flawed somewhat. How much of the "tanking" aspect of the Juggernaut is taken into account in the final score, for instance? Practially, zilch.

The game needs more dimensions to it. It needs classes that fulfill unique roles. As it stands now, it's more or less a DPS fest.

[Feneckus]

Rad_Rage wrote...

They aren't the best at crowd control

MQI's Arc Grenades, TGI's triple overload, SI/GI's proxy mines with 4.5m radius, lolbot's snap freeze ...

tanking

Stim packs, repair matrix, aggro dump

biotics

Huntress' Dark Channel > Fury's or Collector Adept's

tech

TGI's overload > Human Engineer's

A TGI can have a triple overload, not spec for power damage and he's still able to strip a gold phantom's barrier. To do that, a human engineer has to spec for power damage and single target overload ...

Energy drain, tactical scan, proxy mine, arc/homing grenade, recon mine and sabotage are also a lot better on infiltrators than on engineers.

january42 wrote...

Even then, infiltrators are only really better than anyone else at one of the possible objectives.

They're the best for devices, target elimination, pizzas and hacks. Only one they're not the best at is escorts because they can't cloak.

[T41rdEye]

So much butthurt with infiltrators. I don't get it. If the scoring system rewarded more for things besides DPS and killshots, it wouldn't be so bad. People get upset when they get outscored. Sad. This is co-op.

Lots of things will get tweaked in the next game. My idea is separating TC and assassinate into separate powers (like Volus LM). Eliminating the cooldown feature and making assassinate have a longer cooldown with its own power tree. Eliminating shotgun/pistol or even smg infiltrators is not the answer. More variety, the better.

All that said, the only thing that really currently bugs me is the aggro-dump when I play in squads w/them. Squishy casters end up hiding waiting for their shields to Regen. If I can track a Hunter after he re-cloaks so should the enemy. Right now they just turn and attack the nearest friendly.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Me1mN0t wrote...

So much butthurt with infiltrators. I don't get it. If the scoring system rewarded more for things besides DPS and killshots, it wouldn't be so bad. People get upset when they get outscored. Sad. This is co-op.

Lots of things will get tweaked in the next game. My idea is separating TC and assassinate into separate powers (like Volus LM). Eliminating the cooldown feature and making assassinate have a longer cooldown with its own power tree. Eliminating shotgun/pistol or even smg infiltrators is not the answer. More variety, the better.

All that said, the only thing that really currently bugs me is the aggro-dump when I play in squads w/them. Squishy casters end up hiding waiting for their shields to Regen. If I can track a Hunter after he re-cloaks so should the enemy. Right now they just turn and attack the nearest friendly.

If you think people butthurt about Infiltrator because of the score, you can just get out.

[Charaxan]

Tokenusername wrote...

Tac-Cloak should never have given a raw damage bonus.

Raw damage bonus is a relent of fantasy rpg, with "backstab" from assassins/thieves, when you imagine the character can chose a weak spot and hit with a blade while unseen. But in a sci-fi game it is irrelevant; in my humble opinion. Sniper gonna snipe, invisible or not.

I think it could be great if the next ME introduce the concept of visibilty IG, not only in lore. ("windows are structural weakness"...)

Meaning : tac cloak protect from beeing seen, but what about thermal seeing ? IR ? Radio/EM emissions ? Low lights emissions ? etc ? It is a "futurist" game and only beeing invisible is not enough, the geth scan is a pure exemple.

So I think it could be some different scans, different type of cloaks cloaking different spectres of emissions (including sounds ! let's be silly !) and different scans.

For those who played "Alien vs predators", including the multiplayers, you surely know what I mean. Shosing what scan to use) can be tricky but it intensify the game and the feeling of vulnerability, while rewarding the clever player.

Modifié par Charaxan, 07 mars 2013 - 07:40 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rad_Rage wrote...

That's more a fault of game design, not character design.

They are interrelated. The gameplay is what allows different character roles as someone noted in an example above.

The fact that TC doesn't really hide you from the enemies (at least not consistently)

It cannot be a "I press the button to cloak, so I'm entirely invisible" kind of deal. The reason is if an emeny sees me cloaking and I don't move from my spot, then there is reason for it to fire at my last known location. An enemy can also hear my movement. So there's more to it than just the enemy ignoring completely. The mechanics though should be consistent and clear. In my opinion, in this game, enemies cheat a lot, which is where the problem lies.

takes away the utility of it especially with how buggy it is off host (which makes it hilarious when people say Infiltrators don't care about weight.

70-80% of the time, TC does not give me a short cooldown off host, and I'm always playing off host. I almost always go into the longest cooldown (or at least the animation makes me think that I'm in a full cooldown). You're most definitely right.

Only bad ones don't). But idk I've always just been of the mindset that you play what you want because you enjoy it. I don't care if X character does more burst DPS than Y character. I'll still use Y character because I just want to play it. Anyone who plays the game just caring about how much damage they do is really ruining the experience for themselves.

I just love the concept of the Infiltrator class with sniper rifles. Even if they nerf the damage to oblivion I'll continue to play this class. I just hope in the next game they improve the game so that a majority of the things isn't purely about how much damage one deals or how high a score one raked up in the end.

[ellipticwhistle]

My thought on the easiest way to make infiltrators work how they should;

Make it so cloak bonuses only apply for the NEXT shot/power, not a period of time.

[dday3six]

Players really need to come to terms that some of the game design of ME3 MP was likely designed around maximizing revenue returns from the RNG store and mirco-transactions, that's why every kit can use every weapon.

[Star fury]

This infiltrator problem stems from having huge advantages and not having single big disadvantage.

Tac cloak gives the biggest DPS, survivability, aggro dump, power damage boost, if you cancel it it has low cooldown. So infillies don't depend on weight. They're not even squishy, they have same HP as SOLDIERS have. Horrible game design.

[january42]

[quote
[quote]january42 wrote...

Even then, infiltrators are only really better than anyone else at one of the possible objectives. [/quote]

They're the best for devices, target elimination, pizzas and hacks. Only one they're not the best at is escorts because they can't cloak.
[/quote]

Can't cloak with pizzas either.  And them being good at target elimination and hacks is a side effect of to them having a good DPS. An class that can put out alot of damage is good at those.

Also, infiltrators are good at surviving, not tanking. (Tanking is when you draw fire so your allies can kill stuff. Basicly the opposite of an infi).

Also, alot of the utility features of the other classes got turned down.  The enemies basicly ignore pets now and they are really fragile anyway and don't do any damage.  The only way to really deal with enemies is kill them, so damage is all.

[jrm_ayun]

Rad_Rage wrote...

Titus Thongger wrote...

Rad_Rage wrote...

Infiltrators (2 to be exact) are only the best at killing single targets, stealth reviving and getting devices. They aren't the best at crowd control, tanking, biotics, tech, etc.

TGI and AIU can tank with impunity thanks to I-win health packs

Asari huntress does absurd biotic damage

AIU snap freeze has crowd control. + TGI chain overload for SUPER crowd control.

FQI sabotage under tac cloak does over 1k damage.

Infiltrators also have one of the highest melee damage attacks in the game. Asari huntress melee outdamages krogan. FQI heavy melee on a sabotaged target does insane single target damage

An infiltrator anything makes anything that much better because of the +40-80-100% damage boost from TC.

My bad, forgot to mention the AIU. Forgot about her since she's new. Only she and TGI have reliable CC (unless you count Drell with Recon Mine) but even then, other classes have crowd control that works just as well.

And when I mentioned biotics, I was referring to being able to quickly set off consecutive biotic explosions. Same with tech. By the time a Huntress' DC kills a Banshee, you could have already killed 2 of them with a HS + Claymore.

Meh, that doesn't really seem like an issue. It's not really practical to run around trying to kill everything with Sabotage. It's true value is in it's ability to stagger.

That's because melee is poorly represented in the game in general. That's no fault of the Infiltrator. And the Asari melee is stronger because her cloak got buffed to compensate for it not working how it was supposed to originally (giving weapon damage bonus) and Krogan melee was just made weak.

And Infiltrators (like I said 2-3 of them) are the best at single target DPS. But all of the others can be matched unless you're going to snipe. Other characters outdo them as far as utility as well.

The MQI has the best CC IMO. DPS wise, there's the GI, TGI, AIU. You could argue for the SI who also has proxy mine and Drell who has recon mine for debuff as well as those cloacked homing nades. 

[K_O_513]

[quote]Feneckus wrote...

MQI's Arc Grenades, TGI's triple overload, SI/GI's proxy mines with 4.5m radius, lolbot's snap freeze ...
[/quote]

Forgot Arc Grenades, but another class has that. That's my point. Yeah some have CC but it's not like other classes don't have it and don't do it just as well (outside of AIU Snap Freeze and MQI Arc Grenades maybe).


[quote]Stim packs, repair matrix, aggro dump[/quote]

Only 2 Infiltrators have ways to restore shields. The rest are fairly squishy. And aggro dump is iffy at best. Cloak being buggy off host (showing you cloaked but the enemies don't "know" you're cloaked and still shoot at you) as well as splash damage is still a danger. Standing out in the open with an Infiltrator will get you dropped not to mention you can't restore shields while cloak (except for TGI and AIU of course).

[quote]Huntress' Dark Channel > Fury's or Collector Adept's[/quote]

Like I stated previously, I was referring to the ability to set off coninuous biotic explosions. The DoT from the Huntress' DC is irrelevant considering it has no factor in how strong a BE is, neither does her cloak.

[quote]TGI's overload > Human Engineer's[/quote]

Again, referring to combos. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my previous posts.

[quote]Energy drain, tactical scan, proxy mine, arc/homing grenade, recon mine and sabotage are also a lot better on infiltrators than on engineers.[/quote]

How so? Because of raw damage of some of the powers? The utility of all of those things are the same regardless of the character they're being used on. Tac Scan gives the same debuff, same with Proxy Mine, etc.

[quote
They're the best for devices, target elimination, pizzas and hacks. Only one they're not the best at is escorts because they can't cloak.
[/quote]

How are they the best for pizza and hacks? Lol. You can't carry the pizza while cloaked. And with a hack, everything is going to be shooting at you even while you're cloaked because you're probably not going to be moving from the spot (so they'll always finish their burst at you even if you cloak) and you can get hit by shots/grenades/powers meant for teammates.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

DullahansXMark wrote...

It's a good thing BioWare made this the last DLC. The next Infiltrator would have gotten Cobra Missile Launcher Grenades.

I lol'd.

[K_O_513]

jrm_ayun wrote...

The MQI has the best CC IMO. DPS wise, there's the GI, TGI, AIU. You could argue for the SI who also has proxy mine and Drell who has recon mine for debuff as well as those cloacked homing nades. 

I didn't mention debuffs because everyone on the team benefits from those. Plus, the utility of those powers (debuffs, slowing enemies, etc) is the same regardless of the class using it. The proxy mine debuff is the same on a SI as it is on a TS or SE. Same with Recon Mine. Only difference is the raw damage it does.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Feneckus wrote...

Rad_Rage wrote...

They aren't the best at crowd control

MQI's Arc Grenades, TGI's triple overload, SI/GI's proxy mines with 4.5m radius, lolbot's snap freeze ...

tanking

Stim packs, repair matrix, aggro dump

biotics

Huntress' Dark Channel > Fury's or Collector Adept's

tech

TGI's overload > Human Engineer's

A TGI can have a triple overload, not spec for power damage and he's still able to strip a gold phantom's barrier. To do that, a human engineer has to spec for power damage and single target overload ...

Energy drain, tactical scan, proxy mine, arc/homing grenade, recon mine and sabotage are also a lot better on infiltrators than on engineers.

january42 wrote...

Even then, infiltrators are only really better than anyone else at one of the possible objectives.

They're the best for devices, target elimination, pizzas and hacks. Only one they're not the best at is escorts because they can't cloak.

[aaronisbla]

I'll be glad when the next game roles around and infiltrators are still a beast of a class to use

[Eckswhyzed]

I'd like to see the next ME game split up some of TC's abilities:

For example:

Ambush: Cloaks you and provides bonus melee damage and movement speed. Increased melee damage if the enemy is facing away from you

Concealment: Cloaks you and provides a small amount of shield regen with no damage bonuses

Assassinate: Cloaks and provides bonus weapon damage. Does not receive a shorter cooldown for breaking early.


Shadowing: Cloaks and provides bonus power damage. Does not receive a shorter cooldown for breaking early.

or something else of the sort. If different infiltrators had different variants of cloak, there's potential for some interesting characters.

Modifié par Eckswhyzed, 07 mars 2013 - 08:20 .

[Feneckus]

Rad_Rage wrote...


Only 2 Infiltrators have ways to restore shields. The rest are fairly squishy.

How ?

A SI has the same amount of shields as a Salarian Engineer.

Same with QFI/QFE, Human Infiltrator/Human Engineer etc ...

Hell, the MQI has more shields than the Quarian Soldier.

And of course infiltrators can cloak, which is a huge deal for their survivability.

The DoT from the Huntress' DC is irrelevant considering it has no factor in how strong a BE is, neither does her cloak.

And still, there's no way an Asari Adept can keep up with a Huntress against Reapers/Collectors. BEs are inneficient. Huntress' DC can safely kill a Banshee while you're raping Brutes/Ravagers with Warp + Warp/Incendiary ammo with a Claymore, because the Huntress doesn't give a **** about cooldowns.

Energy drain, tactical scan, proxy mine, arc/homing grenade, recon mine and sabotage are also a lot better on infiltrators than on engineers.

How so? Because of raw damage of some of the powers?

Yes, and because they have no cooldowns. If you use a Black Widow or a Claymore on an Engineer you'll pay a big penalty. An infiltrator can keep spamming those powers as if he were using a Predator.

The utility of all of those things are the same regardless of the character they're being used on. Tac Scan gives the same debuff, same with Proxy Mine

Wrong. Those debuffs are multiplicative, which means they're more effective on infiltrators because it will boost tactical cloak's effectiveness as well as base damage and passive bonuses.

How are they the best for pizza and hacks? Lol.

Because they can get to the pizza unnoticed, while other kits might have to clear the area first.

And they're obviously the best for hacks because it's all about killing the enemy before they can get in the circle.

[Crimson Vanguard]

I loled at ppl trying to defend Infiltrators.

[Curzyfish]

Rad_Rage wrote...

jrm_ayun wrote...

The MQI has the best CC IMO. DPS wise, there's the GI, TGI, AIU. You could argue for the SI who also has proxy mine and Drell who has recon mine for debuff as well as those cloacked homing nades. 

I didn't mention debuffs because everyone on the team benefits from those. Plus, the utility of those powers (debuffs, slowing enemies, etc) is the same regardless of the class using it. The proxy mine debuff is the same on a SI as it is on a TS or SE. Same with Recon Mine. Only difference is the raw damage it does.

Everyone benefits, but due to the higher base damage all infiltrators do, they get more out of it, because they are multiplicative bonuses.  20% of 2000 is alot higher than 20% of 1200.

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

Infiltrators are broken by design.

TC = lol cooldowns, 80% damage, (mostly) drop aggro.

Only use them on Platinum/ or plat speedrunning. Because fight Geth BS with BS.

[lightswitch]

The damage bonus from Tac Cloak never should have been so great as to make the duration cloak irrelevant. Reduce it to 20% damage bonus base, with an extra 20% in the evos. Or something to that effect.

In the next game. Not that this one.

edit: Either that or just make all the other classes better. Infiltrators are pretty fun to play, and the variable duration power is an interesting mechanic.

2nd edit: also, I don't understand why infiltrators all get debuffs. Leave that to the engineers...infiltrators should be more focused on stealth.

Modifié par lightswitch, 07 mars 2013 - 08:43 .