202 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

The way to fix it imo is to make things like CC and tanking more important.

Much of the BSN considers the game to be all about bursting the enemy down as fast as humanly possible which of course Infiltrators are going to be good at that. That's what they were designed to do, even before Mass Effect 3.

Imagine if Phantoms couldn't be 1 shot off-host by an Infiltrator or staggered easily. How good do you think Stasis or a Juggernaut would be against Cerberus at that point?

Obviously this wont happen in ME3, but we aren't getting a TC revamp either and nerfing it into the ground isn't the answer since not every Infiltrator is overpowered.

[Tortugueta]

Stardusk wrote...

.....how will BW break the cycle if indeed it needs to be broken at all?

With a Starchild.

[hostaman]

I never understand these arguments, and they're on BSN every second. Nerf this. buff that!

There is nothing wrong with Infiltrators, or any of the other characters.

I've heard people say that everyone plays as Infiltrators! That's rubbish!
There's been a rainbow of different characters in the last couple of weeks.  KroLords, Cabals, Loads of Jugs, and every other character in MP (Except maybe Quarians, nobody seems to like them  ).

Very few people just play for creds,most play for fun, so it comesdown to choice.

So why don't I play Infiltrator in every game?

Fun!

This is me:

TGI with an Incisor (don't laugh - it works very well  ) against Geth (Yes it is Gold Viable)
AV with a Pirhana  - This always outscores Infils against Cerb
Human Soldier against Collectors - Concussive shot is OP (just kidding <_< )
Anything / And everything (Krolord is fun) against Reapers.

I don't care about boring players just grinding Infils for Creds, let them.  I'll continue to play all the characters in the bag, just because it's fun!

Rant Over.

[PaperAlien]

TC does everything it shouldn't do and nothing it should, 80% boost to all damage, bypassing cooldowns of other powers and bypassing the weight system by having a 3-second cooldown, while still letting enemies whack players out of cloak.

[Cyonan]

PaperAlien wrote...

TC does everything it shouldn't do and nothing it should, 80% boost to all damage, bypassing cooldowns of other powers and bypassing the weight system by having a 3-second cooldown, while still letting enemies whack players out of cloak.

You actually can only cloak once every 4 seconds assuming you aren't actually using your cloak for anything but a damage increase. Most abilities will get a cooldown shorter than that running semi-light, and it's not like we don't have a lot of weapons that are both lightweight and among the best in the game these days.

The overriding cooldowns isn't nearly as bad as everybody makes it out to be.

Once you figure TC out, you can also use it to become truly invisible.

[Nydus Templar]

Infiltrators in ME2 were much closer to balanced, in my opinion.

Like others have said, it should never have been full damage bonus, just weapon damage. Otherwise, tactical cloak is more or less fine as is. Is it a perfect cloak? No, and it shouldn't be, but it should be used to outflank and gain a tactical advantage. If it doesn't dump aggro and the enemy ignores it, than its really just a super adrenaline rush. That's how its being used right now anyway.

The problem, as stated above and many times before, is that Tactical Cloak alone makes this class capable of doing anything because it suffers no drawbacks. It should have one of the longer cooldown of all powers, because you should use it to gain a (wait for it) tactical advantage. Repositioning, lining up the perfect shot, front loading all your damage before diving back into cover and avoiding retaliation.

I don't agree about weapon weight, though. Frankly, I think weapon weight isn't a good mechanic in how its currently implemented. Heavier weapons should make you physically move slower, so that if you're an infiltrator lugging around a Black Widow and a Claymore, you are moving much slower. Normalizing cooldowns means you don't have to make Tac Cloak or any other power's cooldowns ignore this penalty to allow them to use heavier weapons, and it can be adjusted up or down based on the needs of balance without the weight metric. Moving slower would mean that you'd need more time in Tac Cloak to reposition safely, and would expose you to more fire while you do if its not up.

Frankly, the basic mechanics of the game itself need fine tuned, as well. Beyond just the weight system, but also the core components of how you play. Thermal Clips should've been shared between weapons, as an example. I'll have to write up a list.

[Computron2000]

...

The QMI's arc grenades are outclassed by the QME simply because the QME can self burst while at max, damage cloak gives +80% damage. That is a +320 point damage per grenade vs a 6+6 tech burst.

The main advantage the QMI has is that he can spam all his grenades (commonly 7) in a short window while the QME has CD or if the QME spams all his grenades, he gets 1 tech burst after which incinerate goes into CD +7 normal arc damage = +2240 damage vs 1 TB on full spam. A 6+6 gold TB has 843 health/armor/barriers and 1688 shield damage specs

tldr: Best case scenerio for the gold QMI with damage cloak = spam all 7 grenades, get +1397 health/armor/barriers or +522 shields more than the QME. 

Ghost? Sure he can overload but he cannot burst without ammo. Both HE and Ghost can run chain + chain overload. Thats all that is needed if you looking at CC. Crowd control and who's better at damage are 2 seperate matters. 

Concerning power damage, once we add in TBs and FEs, the HE does not lose to the ghost in terms of power damage. Ghost running damage cloak will have a +1056 shield damage bonus per 3 second overload with a 0.54 window for weapon damage. A HE has a 1688 shield TB on gold and a 2194 shield TB on plat (due to difficulty scaling) per 4.75 secs (2.29+2.46).

Ghost overload shield bonus per second = 352 damage
HE overload shield bonus per second = 355 damage on gold/461 on plat

This is not considering the additional damage inflicted by incinerate by the HE nor the weapon damage by the HE or ghost in the 4.75/0.54 sec respective window. A ghost trying to fight a HE on power spamming will lose the dps match. Of course no ghost with common sense does this. Ghosts win the dps race by weapon damage, not because their overload is better or what not especially since both have the same evos for CC

[Catastrophy]

Cyonan wrote...


[..]

Once you figure TC out, you can also use it to become truly invisible.

The path of the true secret agent!

I wish we had a Volus infiltrator with 2 decoy powers. I would call him "Lolus".

Modifié par dr_random, 07 mars 2013 - 09:13 .

[J4mes]

The A.I. needs to be coded properly to nerf Tactical cloak when it comes to SOLO Play.

Every enemy has you aimbotted across the map when you play solo and singleplayer if your squadmates are down. Once that gets fixed/changed, then we can talk nerfs.

[ZiRK]

Just remove the damage bonus from cloak, so its purely for stealth.

[Cyonan]

Nydus Templar wrote...

The problem, as stated above and many times before, is that Tactical Cloak alone makes this class capable of doing anything because it suffers no drawbacks. It should have one of the longer cooldown of all powers, because you should use it to gain a (wait for it) tactical advantage. Repositioning, lining up the perfect shot, front loading all your damage before diving back into cover and avoiding retaliation.

The problem here is that Tactical Cloak would lose the one advantage it has over abilities like Adrenaline Rush or Marksman, which is that it currently gets damage spikes more frequently.

Adrenaline Rush actually spikes higher in damage than Tactical Cloak does, but you can't use AR as often and even though it is still active much of the time, the big damage spike comes from that free reload.

Hitting TC directly is not going to solve anything due to Infiltrators not all being roughly at the same level. Either the TGI/AIU will still be overpowered or the weaker Infiltrators will become underpowered.

It's not like the Human Infiltrator or N7 Shadow has damage output that isn't matched or beaten by a N7 Fury, Drell Adept, Human Soldier, Turian Soldier, Quarian Marksman, or N7 Destroyer, among other things.

[Asebstos]

Feneckus wrote...

You forgot the MQI, Huntress and Infidrell.

The only infiltrators nobody complains about are the Human one and the Shadow.

The only complaint I've ever seen about the Huntress is that her cloak doesn't grant a weapon bonus.

[Kushiel42]

Model Tactical Cloak on Adrenaline Rush - no power usage from within cloak unless you pick the Bonus Power evo, at which point you can fire off one power without a cooldown.

The much bigger problems, though, are the maps and enemy behavior. The maps are too small for sniper rifles to really be necessary, or even particularly useful, which also means that there's no need to use Cloak to stealthily reposition and flank the enemy. Lack of any kind of enemy suppression mechanic also downplays the need to flank, and the fact that the majority of the enemies in the game simply charge right towards you also means that positional tactics are going to be basic at best. Fix, uh, change those things and suddenly Cloak would be useful without a huge damage boost.

Modifié par Kushiel42, 07 mars 2013 - 10:31 .

[stysiaq]

Asebstos wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

You forgot the MQI, Huntress and Infidrell.

The only infiltrators nobody complains about are the Human one and the Shadow.

The only complaint I've ever seen about the Huntress is that her cloak doesn't grant a weapon bonus.

:D:D:D

That's right. People complain about QFI? Didn't notice that.

Anyway, TC design is broken as it is. I agree with Crimson that it should be all about Headshot bonuses and backstab melee damage. Raw damage bonus is stupid.

[Ziegrif]

Tortugueta wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

.....how will BW break the cycle if indeed it needs to be broken at all?

With a Starchild.

And a dropkick right off the top turnbuckle.

[SavagelyEpic]

stysiaq wrote...

Asebstos wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

You forgot the MQI, Huntress and Infidrell.

The only infiltrators nobody complains about are the Human one and the Shadow.

The only complaint I've ever seen about the Huntress is that her cloak doesn't grant a weapon bonus.

:D:D:D

That's right. People complain about QFI? Didn't notice that.

Anyway, TC design is broken as it is. I agree with Crimson that it should be all about Headshot bonuses and backstab melee damage. Raw damage bonus is stupid.

Well people don't really need to complain about the QFI because stickies+sabotage are pretty ...explosive.

I don't think TC should be granting any bonuses at all IMO - it would've been better to give it a base 12 second duration (upgradeable through later evos and with certain choices to also slightly mask footfalls, and allow you to crouch/walk like in ME1 for even more stealth), and cause weapons/power/melee to instantly break it instead of 2 seconds later.

And channel energy from your shields to your cloak too, so if you break your cloak by shooting you'll also have no shields. And if you get hit in cloak you'll have no protection. Essentially, Crysis's tactical cloak is what Mass Effect's also should've been.

On the other hand, they should reintroduce ME1 style Assassination and remove shieldgate, because that's a dumb idea to begin with. And reintroduce the ME1 system of shielding, because they're supposed to be kinetic barriers, not energy shields. As in melee attacks, acid, etc. will bypass your shields, and shields won't stop DOT.


And also remove the whole idiotic "bullet-sponge" theory. A Javelin fired is a Javelin fired, it shouldn't matter who does it, it should kill period. It's stupid that weapons behave completely differently depending on who uses it, and it's stupid that our enemies can take multiple rounds from weapons designed to destroy armoured vehicles. Make everything uniformly squishy, including us. What's this bullcrap about some N7 guy taking 3-4 high velocity nemesis sniper rounds before dropping? Reintroduce sniper scope swaying while they're at it, too.

Modifié par SavagelyEpic, 07 mars 2013 - 10:57 .

[Feneckus]

Computron2000 wrote...

numbers

Numbers are irrelevant. The game has been out for a year, I thought everybody would have realized it by now.

Also, fire explosions/tech bursts caused by two powers are extremely inneficient, except the Arc Grenade/Incinerate combo since only of them has a cooldown.

Asebstos wrote...

The only complaint I've ever seen about the Huntress is that her cloak doesn't grant a weapon bonus.

And that she's a much better melee fighter than a freaking one-ton Krogan. 

stysiaq wrote...

That's right. People complain about QFI? Didn't notice that.

Sabotage's cooldown. She used to be able to have a Claymore or/and a Javelin and use Sabotage as often as a Turian Engineer with a Predator ...

Even now, post cooldown buff, only a one second difference. And if the Turian Engineer has a Claymore, sabotage will have a 2s longer cooldown than on the QFI. Almost 4s with a Javelin.

Modifié par Feneckus, 07 mars 2013 - 11:41 .

[Nydus Templar]

Cyonan wrote...

The problem here is that Tactical Cloak would lose the one advantage it has over abilities like Adrenaline Rush or Marksman, which is that it currently gets damage spikes more frequently.

Adrenaline Rush actually spikes higher in damage than Tactical Cloak does, but you can't use AR as often and even though it is still active much of the time, the big damage spike comes from that free reload.

Hitting TC directly is not going to solve anything due to Infiltrators not all being roughly at the same level. Either the TGI/AIU will still be overpowered or the weaker Infiltrators will become underpowered.

It's not like the Human Infiltrator or N7 Shadow has damage output that isn't matched or beaten by a N7 Fury, Drell Adept, Human Soldier, Turian Soldier, Quarian Marksman, or N7 Destroyer, among other things.

The problem with Tac Cloak is systemic of the design flaws in MP to begin with.  Its true that taking Tac Cloak down several notches hard will just unfairly handycap those that have nothing else going for them, but its only because those classes are reliant upon it to begin with.

Frankly, its all they need.  In that single ability, they get massive damage, protection, and manuverability in a very reasonable cooldown.  Taking some of the power out of Tac Cloak is necessary in conjunction with improving the other abilities available, as well as making more available abilities.

Really, there shouldn't be passive trees for Fitness & Weapon/Power damage.  I mean, does it really make sense that you should have to choose between 'survivability' and 'melee damage'?  Using melee attacks places you in the worst position, out of cover.  What sense is there in making someone take a double penalty just to use melee?  Those things should be static, or scale with level.  Instead, there should just be a wider option of powers to choose from, including every kit having a single ammo power.  Ammo cards won't be worthless because of this, since not everyone will want to use that ammo power for their build.

Give the Human Infiltrator the choice of Tac Cloak, Cryoblast, Overload, Sticky Grenades, and Armor-Piercing Ammo as an example.  This shows two powers that are tech (Cryo & Overload), two powers that are combat (Tac Cloak & Sticky Grenades), and the ammo type being appropriate for dealing with sniping or using a shotgun.  Now where the AIU & TGI wants to sink points into their defensive ability, they've got to give up toolkit for dealing with enemy types, and Tactical Cloak just won't fill in all the gaps for them.

As for the Shadow, her issue is related to how horridly melee is treated in this game.  The rewards for the risk are underwhelming, to say the least.  She's got some nice tools for that type of fighting, but in this game most melee builds that aren't the Juggernaut, Warlord, or Battlemaster are basically low end gun drones.  You need to be nigh-invulnerable to use your melee for anything other than the occasional pinch damage.

Ultimately, opening a wider toolkit for every class/race combo will even out the power gaps.  It'll also mean that each kit's passives are specific to them, and can be tuned as necessary if they are out of balance.  More knobs and levers to pull for balance.  More choices for the players.  More playstyles supported.  Everyone wins.

[spudspot]

Feneckus wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

numbers

Numbers are irrelevant. The game has been out for a year, I thought everybody would have realized it by now.

How? They don't seem to be irrelevant to you, since:

Feneckus wrote...

And that she's a much better melee fighter than a freaking one-ton Krogan. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

If not based only on raw melee damage (a number), then how do you justify that statement?

[tatski]

Pffft Infiltrators in MP are always Bioware's pet... and I hated what they did to the sentinel.The sentinel was a freaking juggernaut in ME2....

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

That's right. People complain about QFI? Didn't notice that.

Sabotage's cooldown. She used to be able to have a Claymore or/and a Javelin and use Sabotage as often as a Turian Engineer with a Predator ...

Even now, post cooldown buff, only a one second difference.

If that's all you have, that's a pretty weak argument considering most people weren't actually complaining about the FQI.

Though this is the BSN. I'm sure somebody has complained about her at some point in the past.

[Feneckus]

spudspot wrote...

If not based only on raw melee damage (a number), then how do you justify that statement?

In-game experience.

A Huntress can kill three phantoms/dragoons in a single heavy melee.

A Krogan can't do that. He can kill a phantom in a single heavy melee, but you have to sacrifice durability to do that. Not a problem on infiltrators because they get +130% melee damage just with Tactical Cloak.

Cyonan wrote...

If that's all you have, that's a pretty weak argument considering most people weren't actually complaining about the FQI.

Well, I could have talked about the damage as well. How it does more damage on a weapon specced QFI than on a power specced Turian with a Power Amplifier IV. But that's the case with every infiltrator who shares a power with an engineer.

She only looks balanced because the GI/SI/QMI/TGI/lolbot exist.

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

If that's all you have, that's a pretty weak argument considering most people weren't actually complaining about the FQI.

Well, I could have talked about the damage as well. How it does more damage on a weapon specced QFI than on a power specced Turian with a Power Amplifier IV. But that's the case with every infiltrator who shares a power with an engineer.

She only looks balanced because the GI/SI/QMI/TGI/lolbot exist.

and I could mention that you're supposed to be talking about how people complained about the FQI, not about your personal vendetta against Tactical Cloak =P

Other than you and Annomander, I really don't see people complaining about any of the lower end Infiltrators.

[kipac]

Cyonan wrote...

Nydus Templar wrote...

The problem, as stated above and many times before, is that Tactical Cloak alone makes this class capable of doing anything because it suffers no drawbacks. It should have one of the longer cooldown of all powers, because you should use it to gain a (wait for it) tactical advantage. Repositioning, lining up the perfect shot, front loading all your damage before diving back into cover and avoiding retaliation.

The problem here is that Tactical Cloak would lose the one advantage it has over abilities like Adrenaline Rush or Marksman, which is that it currently gets damage spikes more frequently.

Adrenaline Rush actually spikes higher in damage than Tactical Cloak does, but you can't use AR as often and even though it is still active much of the time, the big damage spike comes from that free reload.

Hitting TC directly is not going to solve anything due to Infiltrators not all being roughly at the same level. Either the TGI/AIU will still be overpowered or the weaker Infiltrators will become underpowered.

It's not like the Human Infiltrator or N7 Shadow has damage output that isn't matched or beaten by a N7 Fury, Drell Adept, Human Soldier, Turian Soldier, Quarian Marksman, or N7 Destroyer, among other things.

+ TC prevents you from shield regen, but adrenaline rush boosts DR and regens shield.

[bondiboy]

Its all over no more patches no major balance changes