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The Cycles of Infiltrator Crisis...


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#101
Cyonan

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Nydus Templar wrote...

The problem with Tac Cloak is systemic of the design flaws in MP to begin with. Its true that taking Tac Cloak down several notches hard will just unfairly handycap those that have nothing else going for them, but its only because those classes are reliant upon it to begin with.

Frankly, its all they need. In that single ability, they get massive damage, protection, and manuverability in a very reasonable cooldown. Taking some of the power out of Tac Cloak is necessary in conjunction with improving the other abilities available, as well as making more available abilities.

Really, there shouldn't be passive trees for Fitness & Weapon/Power damage. I mean, does it really make sense that you should have to choose between 'survivability' and 'melee damage'? Using melee attacks places you in the worst position, out of cover. What sense is there in making someone take a double penalty just to use melee? Those things should be static, or scale with level. Instead, there should just be a wider option of powers to choose from, including every kit having a single ammo power. Ammo cards won't be worthless because of this, since not everyone will want to use that ammo power for their build.

Give the Human Infiltrator the choice of Tac Cloak, Cryoblast, Overload, Sticky Grenades, and Armor-Piercing Ammo as an example. This shows two powers that are tech (Cryo & Overload), two powers that are combat (Tac Cloak & Sticky Grenades), and the ammo type being appropriate for dealing with sniping or using a shotgun. Now where the AIU & TGI wants to sink points into their defensive ability, they've got to give up toolkit for dealing with enemy types, and Tactical Cloak just won't fill in all the gaps for them.

As for the Shadow, her issue is related to how horridly melee is treated in this game. The rewards for the risk are underwhelming, to say the least. She's got some nice tools for that type of fighting, but in this game most melee builds that aren't the Juggernaut, Warlord, or Battlemaster are basically low end gun drones. You need to be nigh-invulnerable to use your melee for anything other than the occasional pinch damage.

Ultimately, opening a wider toolkit for every class/race combo will even out the power gaps. It'll also mean that each kit's passives are specific to them, and can be tuned as necessary if they are out of balance. More knobs and levers to pull for balance. More choices for the players. More playstyles supported. Everyone wins.


It's no different than if you took the nerf bat to Adenaline Rush or Marksman. Yeah Infiltrators are reliant on it, but a lot of characters are reliant on one power to do the bulk of their damage.

It doesn't make much sense to me that you need to choose melee vs shields, but that doesn't mean they should just scrap the idea completely. Any discussion at this point is pretty much for Mass Effect 4, so I would say give a revamp so that it's shields vs something else.

Having both ammo powers and consumables will make the powers not all that desirable. Especially since in your list you left a sunder armour effect in Cryo Blast(Single shot snipers also barely notice armour). I do like the idea of having a pool of powers to choose from, however.

The thing is that people are talking about TC as being the sole problem that's making Infiltrators "overpowered". If this were true it not should matter what the other 2 abilities are, every Infiltrator should be able to just pick up a gun and be OP with Tactical Cloak.

but we have plenty of kits that can keep up with Tactical Cloak damage unless it's something on the level of the GI, which is more than just Tactical Cloak. It's 3 powers working in perfect synergy to all increase damage output.

#102
Hellfire257

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The way some people act, you would think an infiltrator ate their grandmother. It always seems to be a select few people who complain too.

#103
Kuato Livezz

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Transairion wrote...

By changing Tactical Cloak to give pure cloak (AI can't "cheat" to find you, you're gone) and cutting out the damage bonus.

As far as I'm aware Tactical Cloak is almost purely used to increase the damage of your next power/weapon shot (to the point choosing duration is the chump choice). The fact it basically ignores weight as a result of "self-cancel" and thus can ALWAYS be on a 4 second cooldown unbalances it pretty far...


Pretty much this.   Power cancelling is the backbone of infiltrators (for most).

#104
bondiboy

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Btw Cyonan, Your input ino this game has been great. Have learnt a few thinghs from your posts. Thanks for making the effort

#105
joker_jack

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Feneckus wrote...

You forgot the MQI, Huntress and Infidrell.

The only infiltrators nobody complains about are the Human one and the Shadow.

I hope they nerf infiltrators in ME4. Every single infiltrator has better melee damage than a Krogan Sentinel. Completely ridiculous.

They should nerf the damage bonus a little bit and make it apply only to sniper rifles. 

And make them care about weight.

Maybe they could buff the aggro dump to compensate.


I doubt that they will do it the way you or anyone else wants it. Alot more player like the class as it stands and if there are more that want it as it is and it will push more copies of the game, Infiltrator will still have tac cloak. 

You want to change the mechanics, then get a game degree and apply for the job. Then you can come and dictate to everyone how it will be. Until then, you have have zero rights. Same as anyone else who bought the game. More so now than before. You have right to play the game or not, and that's about it. 

#106
vonSlash

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The damage bonus should stay, but the cooldown shouldn't be decreased based on cloak duration. Just give it a fixed cooldown rate.

#107
Randomical

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The Cycle must continue.

#108
Noipsaj

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Tokenusername wrote...

Tac-Cloak should never have given a raw damage bonus.


Why not???

#109
cronshaw

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The old assassination skill from ME1 may be a good model
The damage bonus was quite a bit higher but applied only to sniper rifles
The problem with that is that it throttles diversity
No more CQC infiltrators

#110
Fortack

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Noipsaj wrote...

Tokenusername wrote...

Tac-Cloak should never have given a raw damage bonus.


Why not???


Perhaps because dumping aggro, casting one other power free of charge, using any weapon free of CD penalty, moving around & lining up (head) shots safely etc etc is good enough for one power?

Tactical Cheat without the damage bonus would still be the best power in the game. Ideally it should only make the user invisible for a couple seconds - nothing else, so no damage bonus, no free casting, and with weight penalties like everyone else. Even then it would be one - if not the -  the best power in the game > great survivability and easy shots.

Modifié par Fortack, 07 mars 2013 - 01:32 .


#111
Feneckus

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joker_jack wrote...


You want to change the mechanics, then get a game degree and apply for the job. Then you can come and dictate to everyone how it will be. Until then, you have have zero rights. 


How dare I give my opinion on a message board like that ? And to make things worse, I also give logical arguments.

I'm such a scumbag. I'll kill myself now.

Thanks for making me realize the truth.

#112
cronshaw

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As the game (MP) is currently constituted, TC would suck without the damage bonus.
The volus would all become superior kits than most infiltrators
The game is really all about killing stuff fast
Running around invisible doesn't do much to help with that
Now I'm not saying something like that shouldn't happen to TC
But infiltrators would need something to compensate
Part of the problem I think was finding a way to approximate the time dialation that some skills give in SP
In the case of both AR and TC they translated it to a straight damage boost
It worked well for AR but TC has more moving parts

#113
Baby Quarian

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FQI > Other :wub:

#114
xtorma

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Feneckus wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

numbers


Numbers are irrelevant. The game has been out for a year, I thought everybody would have realized it by now.

Also, fire explosions/tech bursts caused by two powers are extremely inneficient, except the Arc Grenade/Incinerate combo since only of them has a cooldown.

Asebstos wrote...

The only complaint I've ever seen about the Huntress is that her cloak doesn't grant a weapon bonus.


And that she's a much better melee fighter than a freaking one-ton Krogan. :?

stysiaq wrote...

That's right. People complain about QFI? Didn't notice that.


Sabotage's cooldown. She used to be able to have a Claymore or/and a Javelin and use Sabotage as often as a Turian Engineer with a Predator ...

Even now, post cooldown buff, only a one second difference. And if the Turian Engineer has a Claymore, sabotage will have a 2s longer cooldown than on the QFI. Almost 4s with a Javelin.


Dont forget the Krogan soldier Posted Image
Fire splosions maximus

#115
cronshaw

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I'm no game designer so I'm not sure how difficult something like this would be to implement
But what about a sneak attack mechanic that gives a damage bonus to anyone hitting an enemy that is unaware of them?
That way there is no inherent bonus to TC, but infiltrators would be better at exploiting the mechanic.
so you couldn't just stand in one spot and cloak, shoot, cloak, shoot and get your damage bonus
I don't know, just spitballing
I suppose that would change the game quite a bit

#116
ElectroNeonPanda

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It's highly unlikely they'd allow silly things like game/class balance sway them into toning down the most popular crutch class.

#117
Fortack

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modok8 wrote...

As the game (MP) is currently constituted, TC would suck without the damage bonus.
The volus would all become superior kits than most infiltrators
The game is really all about killing stuff fast
Running around invisible doesn't do much to help with that
Now I'm not saying something like that shouldn't happen to TC
But infiltrators would need something to compensate
Part of the problem I think was finding a way to approximate the time dialation that some skills give in SP
In the case of both AR and TC they translated it to a straight damage boost
It worked well for AR but TC has more moving parts


How the heck do Volus become better than Infiltrators? Dumping aggro is just as good if not better than spamming shield boost, except for the fact that a Volus cannot spam SB every 4 seconds with a heavy weapon & cannot cast one of its other powers free of charge & doesn't get easy shots b/c enemies can be staggered by the free of charge power and so on.

To properly balance Tactical Cheat it should lose a lot more than just the damage bonus.

#118
Kuato Livezz

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I like the tac mine on the infidrell. What should have a long CD turns to a spammable power with TC.

#119
Major Durza

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Titus Thongger wrote...

maybe infiltrators should only get a damage bonus on headshots.


That would... be quite awesome, actually.
Listen to this one.  A simple, yet brutally effective idea that if done right will make Infiltrators the kings of Critical Hits while leaving the Soldier's role as weapon masters.
Also would benefit more from buffing the aggro dump on TC and shifting its focus away from raw damage.

#120
IndigoVitare

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Tactical Cloak needs to be fundamentally changed. Simply buffing or nerfing the ME3 version won't work; the very basics of it need to be reworked.

I would start by removing the recharge overide and the damage window (so only the very first shot gets the bonus), but without knowing how combat in ME4 will work, there's no way to be completely sure about what's needed. I do think that the classes as a whole should be reviewed. Multiplayer, particularly, but also things like Armour becoming a health replacement (and proceeding to dominate the metagame) have utterly broken the classic class archetypes. Those need to be either repaired, or changed completely before an effective decision about what's needed can be made.

If the Infiltrator is about debuff+damage (the ME1 definition) then the invisibility element is not as important, just as long as a Bonus Power spec is available so recharge times don't get crippled. If the Infiltrator is more about the stealth element, then the damage bonus is not as important. They need to decide what they want to do with the class and then stick with it. I favour the ME1 definion, since the ME2 one is ridiculously limiting. Everything needs TC or it's not an Infiltrator. Every single Infiltrator in Multiplayer has TC and that's ridiculous. It is by far the most boring class.

This is the same for all the classes; Soldiers using more pure powers, Sentinels doing just about anything they want, no variation in Vanguards, the death of manipulative biotic powers etcetc, but this is about Tactical Cloak.

If the game is set before ME2 they could even remove it completely and bring back Assassinate, since that was the game that introduced it. It could be explained that it was a technology developed in the 2 years Sheperd was dead, like Thermal Clips.

#121
ClockworkSpectre

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The first thing I think they will need to do is not limit characters to three powers for ME4 mp. To me that is the largest problem, it puts a massive restriction on what they can do with kits. It forces them to combine concepts into one power. If they where to remove the damage bonus from TC, but then give infiltrators the assassinate(don't remember if this is the correct name) from ME1, that would work well. Except, that each infiltrator class would need both skills, massively limiting what makes each kit in that class different. Or just completely gimping them if you leave one out.

As it is, I think TC is fine, and shouldn't be nerfed. I find the claim that it some how makes them so much better than other classes laughable. I have seen more than enough instances where people have blown infiltrators out of the water in how much they contributed to damage output in a match. I can't help but feel that much of the hate is pure butt hurt, for whatever reason.

#122
cronshaw

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@fortack
Volus already have the TC you are suggesting with their light melee
In addition to all their other powers
An SI would be basically a volus engineer with ED instead of recon mine and no shield boost

#123
spudspot

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Feneckus wrote...

spudspot wrote...

If not based only on raw melee damage (a number), then how do you justify that statement?


In-game experience.

A Huntress can kill three phantoms/dragoons in a single heavy melee.

A Krogan can't do that. He can kill a phantom in a single heavy melee, but you have to sacrifice durability to do that. Not a problem on infiltrators because they get +130% melee damage just with Tactical Cloak.


Right, forgot the abysmal tracking on the Krogan heavy melee. Guess you do have a point, it's just that I can't stand that Asari melee animation. 

#124
ryoldschool

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While everyone is suggesting changes to balance the game for me 4... If reload canceling is a key part of balance ( ie the person balancing the weapons assumes that said weapon will be reload cancelled ), then they should standardize the reload cancel across all platforms - my suggestion is the reload key, since that is the only thing it is used for ATM.

As far as infiltrators go - not sure how to balance them. In me2 the soldier Arush was the absolute high burst damage dealer ( 2.4 times weapon damage ) and in me3 multiplayer the soldier is lackluster in comparison ( plus they gave us crappy assault rifles for the longest time ) so they went way too far in balancing him, IMO.

I am sure they will come up with a good game, but next time I am sure there will be a class that deals the best damage, and people will gravitate to it.

#125
gavgav77

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Ok, so there's no logical reason why Tactical Cloak should make your weapons hit almos twice as hard. So that, for me, leaves three options...

- Make all TC duration based. It's therefore for utility only (reviving, escaping, completing objectives etc).

- Restrict Infiltrators to Sniper rifles and SMGs only. No need to do the same for other classes. This would make Infiltrators perform a very specific role of long range damage dealers.

- Ok, here's my big idea... replace TC with Shadow Strike. SS is the ultimate stealth assassination skill, so make it the unique Infiltrator ability that no other class can access. I think some restrictions would have to be put in place though, such as limiting its range or damage.