202 réponses à ce sujet

[khankar]

Another week, another thread complaining about TC.

[Fortack]

modok8 wrote...

@fortack
Volus already have the TC you are suggesting with their light melee
In addition to all their other powers
An SI would be basically a volus engineer with ED instead of recon mine and no shield boost

Yet the SI can equip, say, the Javelin and use ED (to regen his shields - like SB) + stagger & damage & tech combo enemies + easy (head)shots and have the lot on a 3-4 second cooldown. A Volus Engi with the Jav can use Recon Mine like 4 times each game, and have a much longer CD on either SB or PM. Not even close.

You would have a point if the Volus' cloak had the same effect on cooldowns as TC does. But it doesn't. The SI, Shadow and Huntress are the only Infiltrators that can "only" use 2 powers every couple seconds (with -200% cooldown). The HI, GI, FQI, MQI, Ghost and lolbot can use all their powers every couple seconds which is something no other kit in the game can do.

[unclemonster]

I am an infiltrator fan myself
I would like for them to be left alone, but if change is necessary
Here is what I would suggest:
1. lower the cloak base damage to 15%-20% (powers and weapons only, NOT melee)
2. change evo 4 to evo 5, on new evo 5 choose duration or another 10-15% damage (this will force people to take TC to evo 5 minimum as opposed to stopping at evo 4)
3. change evo 5 to evo 4, remove melee option (maybe give choice of 10% power damage evo or recharge speed evo)
4. leave evo6 as it is
5. if you shoot a power from cloak, that is now your new cooldown (unless cloak cooldown is longer, it remains cooldown)

this should balance TC in most eyes

Modifié par unclemonster, 07 mars 2013 - 03:19 .

[FlowCytometry]

TC only applies a weapon damage boost, or if it does also boost powers, only at a reduced amount. Also, making weight more relevant for TC's cd would be nice. You could still pack a powerful heavy weapon, but you wouldn't be able to cloak and shoot as much.

Otherwise its just making sure that the best dps units in the game also don't have amazing survival tools on top of stealth. Glass cannons are counter-balanced by being squishy if hit- make them as durable (or moreso) than soldiers and we got balance issues.

[UngodlySnipes]

Fortack wrote...

Perhaps because dumping aggro, casting one other power free of charge, using any weapon free of CD penalty, moving around & lining up (head) shots safely etc etc is good enough for one power?

Tactical Cheat without the damage bonus would still be the best power in the game. Ideally it should only make the user invisible for a couple seconds - nothing else, so no damage bonus, no free casting, and with weight penalties like everyone else. Even then it would be one - if not the -  the best power in the game > great survivability and easy shots.

So in a game that is all about DPS and killing things you want to nerf the damage bonus which would effectively kill the uselesness of the kit? You want the only thing that keeps the infiltrator in the game when it comes to damage to be nerfed to where it only dumps aggro? The only time TC is ever useful as an aggro dumper is when doing objectives.

[lktalon22]

Is this anger towards infiltrators a score related thing ? I have outscored infiltrators with every other class out there and never thought my character was OP.

* Is the Javelin OP? I have seen people destroy enemies with it, but yet others can't find the mark.

* Is the PPR OP? People make puddles with it, but I can't use it to melt a candle!

Ultimately every class has its purpose and contribution to the team. There has been an OP reference about a character from every single class thus far. Tac Cloak is powerful but has its quarks as much as Adrenalin Rush. In the right hands they will always shine. A noob will have his/her moments but the quarks will more than likely bite them at somepoint.

Choose a character, play the match, and full extract. Thats all there is to it. The only aspect that should be avoided in the next installment are character elements that interfere in squad performance. Such as screen shaking. Tac Claok is working as intended .

The game is just that. The world has never figured out the formula for equality, do not expect the team at Bioware to provide us any better. We play to win the game. Enjoy.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Stardusk wrote...

 Anyone who has been here since launch remembers the old days, back then...it was the SI, then came the GI, then the TGI and now the AIU...the pattern is as patently obvious as it is deliberate but the what remains for the future, not f ME3 MP but for the next installment of MP? What will become of the Infiltrators?

Remember that this: SI>GI>TGI>AIU could continue infinitely in theory.....how will BW break the cycle if indeed it needs to be broken at all?

Infiltrators will forever be the game gods in ME and adepts will forever be the lowest of the low classes....according to the way the game has been trending since the original ME.  Guns and grenades rule all.  Infiltrators are the best shooty classes, the best tech classes, and the best biotics.  The best of the best.  Bioware's sense of balance is rather strange to me.

[FlowCytometry]

to be fair, grenades really weren't that ridiculous before some of the grenade buffs and the (over-tuned) gear was released. Rather I recall quite a few threads bemoaning how limited grenades were- back when having 2-4 of them was a usual cap.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 07 mars 2013 - 03:32 .

[Computron2000]

Feneckus wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

numbers

Numbers are irrelevant. The game has been out for a year, I thought everybody would have realized it by now.

Also, fire explosions/tech bursts caused by two powers are extremely inneficient, except the Arc Grenade/Incinerate combo since only of them has a cooldown.

No, hyperbole is irrelevant.

Anyway, no problem, just 1 more name to add to the list of posters who know crap

[Fortack]

UngodlySnipes wrote...

Fortack wrote...

Perhaps because dumping aggro, casting one other power free of charge, using any weapon free of CD penalty, moving around & lining up (head) shots safely etc etc is good enough for one power?

Tactical Cheat without the damage bonus would still be the best power in the game. Ideally it should only make the user invisible for a couple seconds - nothing else, so no damage bonus, no free casting, and with weight penalties like everyone else. Even then it would be one - if not the -  the best power in the game > great survivability and easy shots.

So in a game that is all about DPS and killing things you want to nerf the damage bonus which would effectively kill the uselesness of the kit? You want the only thing that keeps the infiltrator in the game when it comes to damage to be nerfed to where it only dumps aggro? The only time TC is ever useful as an aggro dumper is when doing objectives.

So in your opinion all non-Infiltrators have no place in this game at all?

[Bwnci]

Tactical Cloak's biggest advantage is the recharge speed it grants players on all their powers. That alone is why they out preform. There are plenty of damage boosting powers in the game.

[megawug]

No. No more TC nerfs. Leave it alone!

[DeathIsHere]

Feneckus wrote...

Jiovanie- wrote...

I still have yet to see anyone add such a suggestion that doesn't do anything but kill the class as a whole..

How would having the damage bonus only apply to sniper rifles or to their weapon of choice kill the class ?

That's why I hate infiltrators. They expect to be the best at every single goddamn thing and cry when someone suggests they shouldn't be. Disguting.

Probably would have agreed with you until I read the underlined bit, way to make a broad generalization about people you don't even know to make yourself look cool. That is disgusting. If you can't be a grown up and talk in a civil manner without making a broad generalization to back up your claims, you should rethink how you make arguments and go away. Makes you look like a child crying because something you don't like in a game is powerful.

Anyway. I'd like to see more specialized cloak bonuses. Cloak shouldn't provide a bonus to melee at all unless the character is melee-intended (AIU, no melee bonus), damage should be specific to one or two weapon types per kit. Say, Salarians get Snipers and Pistols, Geth get Shotguns. Maybe lower the damage output by a slight amount (not as much as I've seen others suggest, given the fact that without the damage bonus cloak would barely have a use). Powers can still take the damage bonus but any cooldown overrides cloak's cooldown (making it so you can't ignore cooldowns completely).

That'd be a good change, gives each Infiltrator a niche while not putting them over the top in every single thing. I'd also rethink an infiltrator with a bonus to AR damage, personally I don't think that makes sense given the overall idea of an infiltrator. Sustained fire isn't their strongsuit and that should be shown via the kits. Leave sustained fire for soldiers.

[RGB]

It's been a long time since I've been outscored by an Infiltrator. The ones that headshot mooks have trouble keeping up with boss-killing. The ones designed to slay bosses get overrun by mooks. If it's just the "elite" players I keep hearing about who are making Infiltrators look like easy mode, I guess I don't see the point of changing Infiltrators at all.

I always got the impression that they were SUPPOSED to be easier to use to help people ease into tough fights and higher difficulties. When I first started PUGing Gold, I was using QMI almost exclusively because I didn't feel confident enough in some of my favorite classes. Now I'll bring a Human Engineer with an Avenger if that's what I feel like doing, because the QMI held my hand.

That said I hope Bioware does take a fresh look at one thing. Give Infiltrators good powers and let them keep Bonus Power, but start the global cooldown when cloak breaks and make it the global cooldown of the bonus power that was used, if any. Basically a check against the last power that was used, and substitute that cooldown for TC's cooldown.

Modifié par BryceH, 07 mars 2013 - 03:51 .

[Computron2000]

BryceH wrote...
Give Infiltrators good powers and let them keep Bonus Power, but start the global cooldown when cloak breaks and make it the global cooldown of the bonus power that was used, if any. Basically a check against the last power that was used, and substitute that cooldown for TC's cooldown.

Won't work. Most powers when specced like a caster with stuff like hurricane has a CD of less than 3 seconds. Energy drain has something like a 2.2 CD. Dark channel is actually faster than cloak's 3 second min CD IIRC. They'll just be played as a caster with cloak or in the case of huntress, played normally but with even better sustained dps

[RGB]

Computron2000 wrote...

BryceH wrote...
Give Infiltrators good powers and let them keep Bonus Power, but start the global cooldown when cloak breaks and make it the global cooldown of the bonus power that was used, if any. Basically a check against the last power that was used, and substitute that cooldown for TC's cooldown.

Won't work. Most powers when specced like a caster with stuff like hurricane has a CD of less than 3 seconds. Energy drain has something like a 2.2 CD. Dark channel is actually faster than cloak's 3 second min CD IIRC. They'll just be played as a caster with cloak or in the case of huntress, played normally but with even better sustained dps

Fair point.  My thought process is that some powers stink because they got nerfed instead of TC, though.  That's what I really want, more than anything.  No more nuking powers like Sabotage when the real issue was never Sabotage to begin with.

Edit for clarity: I don't have an issue with TC so much as putting the global cooldown on whatever power was used last would remove one of my primary gripes with TC, which is that it lets you spam some powers faster than you otherwise could.  Recon Mine is a solid example.  Sabotage would be another one.  Wouldn't do much to save Hunter Mode, though.

Modifié par BryceH, 07 mars 2013 - 04:07 .

[Computron2000]

BryceH wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

BryceH wrote...
Give Infiltrators good powers and let them keep Bonus Power, but start the global cooldown when cloak breaks and make it the global cooldown of the bonus power that was used, if any. Basically a check against the last power that was used, and substitute that cooldown for TC's cooldown.

Won't work. Most powers when specced like a caster with stuff like hurricane has a CD of less than 3 seconds. Energy drain has something like a 2.2 CD. Dark channel is actually faster than cloak's 3 second min CD IIRC. They'll just be played as a caster with cloak or in the case of huntress, played normally but with even better sustained dps

Fair point.  My thought process is that some powers stink because they got nerfed instead of TC, though.  That's what I really want, more than anything.  No more nuking powers like Sabotage when the real issue was never Sabotage to begin with.

Understandable with the GE, Havok and friends getting hit from nowhere.

A infiltrator trying to power spam won't win against a caster because most infilitrators don't self burst without ammo (which is considered only a level 1 power) and cloak mandates a minimun cooldown (i thought it was 3 secs but i saw 4 secs mentioned). Powers are mostly for debuff or stagger i find. The main focus is still weapons damage

[iloveexplosives]

MP-Ryan wrote...

I keep saying it, but the biggest problem with most class balance in this game is the unrestricted weapons use.

If they had retained ME1/ME2 class restrictions on weapons, Infiltrators would not be nearly as powerful, and they could actually balance the various weapons in the game properly. All non-UR ARs could no longer suck, all non-Hurricane SMGs could no longer suck, Shotguns would no longer serve infiltrators better than Vanguards, their primary class, and solders would actually be the walking arsenals they used to be with the accompanying versatility. The ME series used to force a player to choose a balance of weapons output and powers output. Now you can have both, which makes balancing a crapshoot.

Ah, well.

^this so much this

[UngodlySnipes]

Fortack wrote...

UngodlySnipes wrote...

Fortack wrote...

Perhaps because dumping aggro, casting one other power free of charge, using any weapon free of CD penalty, moving around & lining up (head) shots safely etc etc is good enough for one power?

Tactical Cheat without the damage bonus would still be the best power in the game. Ideally it should only make the user invisible for a couple seconds - nothing else, so no damage bonus, no free casting, and with weight penalties like everyone else. Even then it would be one - if not the -  the best power in the game > great survivability and easy shots.

So in a game that is all about DPS and killing things you want to nerf the damage bonus which would effectively kill the uselesness of the kit? You want the only thing that keeps the infiltrator in the game when it comes to damage to be nerfed to where it only dumps aggro? The only time TC is ever useful as an aggro dumper is when doing objectives.

So in your opinion all non-Infiltrators have no place in this game at all?

No imo all non-Infiltrators do exactly what they are supposed to do. The fact that you are grasping at straws to try to come up with an argument in return is ridiculous. Having TC do nothing but cloak the infiltrator you might as well just give them the Volus light melee as previously stated and allow them to have a skill that actually synergizes with the other ones they have.  =/

[Miniditka77]

Fixing infiltrators is easy.  As some others have said, make the cloak as focused on "cloaking" as it is on "tactical."  Right now, you pretty much have to choose between cloaking usefulness and tactical usefulness.  There's nothing wrong with allowing you to evolve it for more damage or better cloaking, but it's too skewed toward damage.

- Return TC to the original base duration and R4 duration bonus
- Make the base damage bonus 25%
- Make the R4 damage evolution 25%
- Keep the R6 weapon/power specific damage bonuses as they currently are
- Reduce the R5 melee bonus to something much more reasonable  (EDIT:  I do like the aspect of having a melee damage bonus on an Infiltrator.  It's actually the most realistic damage bonus that TC provides, as a melee attack can do much more damage to an enemy who can't see it coming.)

Modifié par Miniditka77, 07 mars 2013 - 07:05 .

[Feneckus]

Computron2000 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

numbers

Numbers are irrelevant. The game has been out for a year, I thought everybody would have realized it by now.

Also, fire explosions/tech bursts caused by two powers are extremely inneficient, except the Arc Grenade/Incinerate combo since only of them has a cooldown.

No, hyperbole is irrelevant.

Anyway, no problem, just 1 more name to add to the list of posters who know crap

Because I said fire explosions/tech bursts are inneficient ?

They are. If the enemy is not dead by the time you can cast your second power, you're inneficient. Unless we're talking about Cryo Blast + Incinerate.

FEs/TBs primed by ammo powers are a lot better, even if they do less damage.

Modifié par Feneckus, 07 mars 2013 - 04:59 .

[Fortack]

UngodlySnipes wrote...

No imo all non-Infiltrators do exactly what they are supposed to do. The fact that you are grasping at straws to try to come up with an argument in return is ridiculous. Having TC do nothing but cloak the infiltrator you might as well just give them the Volus light melee as previously stated and allow them to have a skill that actually synergizes with the other ones they have.  =/

Sure, if the point of all non-Infiltrators is to look in awe at Infiltrators you're right.

Regarding the Volus cloak/melee, don't you think it would be kinda poor when their cloak would consume a cooldown with the almighty Infiltrator around?

Yet it still is a damn useful ability > to drop aggro, to get to fallen teammates, to disable devices, to get out of a tough situation, to allow time to line up that perfect shot without getting shot etc etc.

[SavagelyEpic]

modok8 wrote...

I'm no game designer so I'm not sure how difficult something like this would be to implement
But what about a sneak attack mechanic that gives a damage bonus to anyone hitting an enemy that is unaware of them?
That way there is no inherent bonus to TC, but infiltrators would be better at exploiting the mechanic.
so you couldn't just stand in one spot and cloak, shoot, cloak, shoot and get your damage bonus
I don't know, just spitballing
I suppose that would change the game quite a bit

Why isn't this being mentioned more?


There is no logical reason why cloak itself should grant any bonuses. But this could possibly make sense.

Modifié par SavagelyEpic, 07 mars 2013 - 05:28 .

[GlacierRain]

You care too much.

[mijames1]

A part of the problem with Tactical cloak that I have not seen mentioned is that it is amazing with only taking 4 evolutions. That makes it so you can take 4 evolutions of fitness or something else that you would have skipped. The damage or duration choice should be moved to 5 instead of 4.