159 réponses à ce sujet

[Icesong]

Withidread wrote...

Why must a video game take up the social cause of the moment? Why can't a game just be a game?

Yeah, this kind of stuff:

Stanley Woo wrote...

I know people feel very strongly about them, but ultimately, It's. A. Game. And games have their own internal consistency and rules. I don't have to like all the rules in order to play the game, and in some games, i can even modify the rules, so I'll accept that. Some folks may wish to die on this particular hill, but there are far bigger and more important ones where I'll hang my hat. but again, that's just my opinion.

Modifié par Icesong, 07 mars 2013 - 12:14 .

[Plaintiff]

StElmo wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I liked the segment, but was surprised that they used Deus Ex as an example of a racially insensitive product. I thought that overall, it presented a wide variety of Chinese characters. Even if many of them were corrupt or violent, they weren't anymore so than the white characters in Detroit.

Deus Ex has some awful stereotyping. Like the homless black woman speaking *edit*

I don't recall the character, but there's a lot of ambient dialogue in Deus Ex and I recall at least one example of a black woman who probably did have a home speaking very eloquently in the foyer of the the venue where Taggart gives his speech.

The term "Ebonics" is racist in and of itself because it falsely implies that the dialect is hereditary, and spoken exclusively by black people. But simply having a black character use it is not automatically an offensive stereotype, anymore than it is an offensive stereotype when Australian characters say "g'day", "mate" or "crikey".

is it? :S Total Biscuit used it, so I didn't realize it was a faux pas, my bad, apologies to anyone offended!

Well, I think it's racist, and pretty outdated. I can't speak for any black people who may or may not be offended by it.

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I liked the segment, but was surprised that they used Deus Ex as an example of a racially insensitive product.

So the first Deus Ex had pretty awful voice acting, like every game made in 2000. The youtube segment references Human Revolution, which is the game I was talking about.

I don't understand what the problem is here. That the French accents were done poorly? Like all the voices? Denton sounds like gravel in a blender.

Having been to France I'd say the most glaring innaccuracy is that all these people speak pretty good English, even if it is heavily accented. Personally I struggled to find anyone who could understand me at all.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 mars 2013 - 12:33 .

[hangmans tree]

Funny thing, this.
Political corectness.
Online translators give me the same equivalent when I type "black skinned human" in my native language - ****/******. So, does that mean me and my coutrymen offend a hell lot of people each and every time we mention black people indicating their skin colour? Meh, this whole black thing is oversaturated and stupid. By analogy we shouldn't call white people white. Yeah, caucassian pink with sligtly elongivated forehead... that would be better

Minorities in games. Well, I guess games reflect the world view and origin the devs represent. Which would suggest that maybe most of them are of "european origin". Not african, or asian or whatever. The same goes for Japan - most of the setting building revolves about their worldview and ethnic... uniqness.

[Althix]

Jesus H. Christ Plaintiff... you are not fun at all.

however it would make more sense for this "minority" to say some words on a vid instead of some white folks. because as it now it seems like they are giving alms on the street. which is also rather questionable from a giver's motivation point of view.

[Plaintiff]

Well jeez, man. Don't make me cry.

[chuckles471]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think you know the definition of "hypocrisy", then. Hypocrisy is when someone acts in a way that goes against the presentation of their ideals and morals. The colour of your skin is irrelevant. People who are white can still care about minority rights and representations, and that's evident throughout history.

'Good Game' is an Australian proggramme, and not a very far-reaching one with an enormous budget. It spoke to experts in Sydney because that's where it's studio is based and those are the people it can afford to contact. If they happen to be white, then that's just how it is. It's not deliberately trying to shut out minority viewpoints.

Being white doesn't make them automatically ignorant of the issue, or mean that they don't/shouldn't care about it. One of the guest speakers is a member of 'Gamers Against Bigotry', and another is the president of the Australian Human Rights Association. They care enough about the issue to join these groups that are actively campaigning for equal rights, but all that is negated by the colour of their skin?

Cause as much as your hearts are in the right place, you hurt causes.  

Look at occupy, it became a joke because of "white mad at my parents middle class".  The minute most people see a white middle class activist, they think "what are they complaining about now?  pssshh must be good to have an easy enough life, to worry about other people's problems".  The white middle class may have pure reasons but most people switch off when they talk so it's better to let the affected people talk about their cause. 

[Kidd]

Plaintiff wrote...

So... white people aren't allowed to have opinions about minority representation? Their skin colour automatically makes them hypocrites?

I agree with your questioning this. Straight people can care about homosexual representation. Men can care about women. Etc. If anything, that's how it should be. It's selfish to assume that one needs not lift a finger for a better world.

Withidread wrote...

Why must a video game take up the social cause of the moment? Why can't a game just be a game?

Because seeing FemShep kick arse has made me happy. And me being happy lead to me getting my hands on five licenses of ME1, three of ME2 and four of ME3. I'm happy, EA's happy, everybody wins.

Where's the negative part?

chuckles471 wrote...

Look at occupy, it became a joke because of "white mad at my parents middle class".  The minute most people see a white middle class activist, they think "what are they complaining about now?  pssshh must be good to have an easy enough life, to worry about other people's problems".  The white middle class may have pure reasons but most people switch off when they talk so it's better to let the affected people talk about their cause. 

Interesting. I've always observed the opposite to be true. People tend to listen more to those who are like themselves, in my experience.

[Plaintiff]

chuckles471 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think you know the definition of "hypocrisy", then. Hypocrisy is when someone acts in a way that goes against the presentation of their ideals and morals. The colour of your skin is irrelevant. People who are white can still care about minority rights and representations, and that's evident throughout history.

'Good Game' is an Australian proggramme, and not a very far-reaching one with an enormous budget. It spoke to experts in Sydney because that's where it's studio is based and those are the people it can afford to contact. If they happen to be white, then that's just how it is. It's not deliberately trying to shut out minority viewpoints.

Being white doesn't make them automatically ignorant of the issue, or mean that they don't/shouldn't care about it. One of the guest speakers is a member of 'Gamers Against Bigotry', and another is the president of the Australian Human Rights Association. They care enough about the issue to join these groups that are actively campaigning for equal rights, but all that is negated by the colour of their skin?

Cause as much as your hearts are in the right place, you hurt causes.  

Look at occupy, it became a joke because of "white mad at my parents middle class".  The minute most people see a white middle class activist, they think "what are they complaining about now?  pssshh must be good to have an easy enough life, to worry about other people's problems".  The white middle class may have pure reasons but most people switch off when they talk so it's better to let the affected people talk about their cause. 

I don't know what "middle class" looks like. I'm pretty sure you can't tell someone's financial state just by looking at them.

Occupy Wall Street was absolutely a joke, but not for that reason. The reason it flopped so pathetically was because nobody could agree what the problem was (besides "there ain't enough money"), let alone articulate the reason why they were angry. It was a mindless rabble comprised of members of every group, ranging from anarchistic, free-lovin' hippies all the way to the KKK. People were blaming the financial crisis on everything from Bush to Obama to Jewish Conspiracies to Aliens.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

StElmo wrote...

Withidread wrote...

Why must a video game take up the social cause of the moment? Why can't a game just be a game?

It's not taking up a social cause, it's simply asking that an industry which is dominated by white men (on the development side of things) should try harder to include minorities and other races other than caucasian in their games to better reflect the consumers in the real world - which in turn will attract more and more people to development from differing backgrounds.

I think we covered this topic in my anti woman hate thread. I have no problem with minorities being given larger roles in videogames however if we are giving minorities larger roles or changing aspects of an already existing character to represent a certain minority group merely for the sake of being inclusive rather than doing it because this is genuinely the character they want in the role then it is taking up a social cause and not for the right reasons.

Personally I think the whole issue should die in a fire as it really isnt an issue and those who champion such causes and blow the issue out of proportion because because they believe it makes them look like a better person are scum, I have to wonder if they actually care about the issue or if they are championing or whether they just pretend to in order to improve their image like a politician. I am not saying that racism doesnt exist but I do believe that in the case of high level industries people make a far bigger deal out of racism than it actually is.

[Althix]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well jeez, man. Don't make me cry.

Don't cry. There is no Pinkie Pie around.

[Kidd]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Personally I think the whole issue should die in a fire as it really isnt an issue and those who champion such causes and blow the issue out of proportion because because they believe it makes them look like a better person are scum, I have to wonder if they actually care about the issue or if they are championing or whether they just pretend to in order to improve their image like a politician.

Those are... bold claims. I was respecting your post up until this point even though I did not agree with it.

secretsandlies wrote...

Don't cry. There is no Pinkie Pie around.

But there's at least Merrill Sparkle...? =)

<---------

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 07 mars 2013 - 01:35 .

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
I think we covered this topic in my anti woman hate thread. I have no problem with minorities being given larger roles in videogames however if we are giving minorities larger roles or changing aspects of an already existing character to represent a certain minority group merely for the sake of being inclusive rather than doing it because this is genuinely the character they want in the role then it is taking up a social cause and not for the right reasons.

Given that we are not privy to the design process, how are we to tell the difference?

If a developer is passionate about inclusivity, and wants to put it in all their games because they genuinely believe it is the right thing to do, then which category do their minority characters fall under?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 mars 2013 - 01:35 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Would an Australian want an "African American" looking character? Wouldn't "African Australian" be slightly more appropriate, or just, you know, "black"?

I guess they might have a special PC term for Australians of African descent. Australia's indigenous people are commonly called Aborigines and are dark-skinned. Any Australians on the BSN aware of any other respectful terms for that ethnic group?

I could just imagine some American or Canadian tourist visiting Australia and bewildering or just downright insulting an Aborigine by referring to them as an "African Australian" in an attempt to be politically correct and inoffensive.

Funny thing is, as a Canadian, I don't use the term "African Canadian". I use and always have used the term "black". I have used it with black friends and they never got upset about it, but then again the term rarely ever came up in conversations.

But as far as the heart of this thread and the linked YouTube video are concerned, I agree that stereotypes in games are damaging, especially to younger gamers, not all of whom can differentiate between what is accurate, what is offensive and poorly conceived, and what is meant to be parody or satire. I'm a dad now and as such I have more concerns about the effects of media, even if my son is only fifteen months old at this point and I don't really have to worry about what he's being exposed to in respect to games and television, but I will in a few years.

I quite liked the way Lee Everett was depicted in The Walking Dead adventure game. He was an African American, but the way the role was written, he could easily have been white, Asian (any one of the many ethnicities this term engenders- Indian/ Pakistani, Polynesian, Afghani, etc.), or hispanic. I don't remember race being mentioned.

*SPOILER ALERT*

When Kenny found out he was a criminal, he was concerned that Lee might be a convicted pedophile and not a gang banger, pimp, or crack dealer. Lee being a sex offender would be an understandable concern given that he was hiding the fact that he was a criminal and that there were children present.

Lee Everett was a successful, well-educated man who would have had earned the respectful career he had through hard work and intelligence. He killed a man who was cheating on his wife, reacting in a way that is understandable (if not entirely justifiable). His intention was to kick the living crap out of his wife's lover, but he ended up losing control and beat him to death instead.

In my mind Lee losing control is not typical of the "Angry Black Man" stereotype unfortunately still found in games, comics, and movies. His actions would have been believable even if he had been a white guy, and Asian, or a latino. I honestly don't even think a lot of gamers gave it much thought.

*END SPOILERS*

I liked that Mass Effect allowed us to create a Shepard of diverse ethnic backgrounds. Anyone who says you couldn't create a proper Asian or black Shepard just wasn't trying hard enough. There are more than enough facial characteristics to be able to pull it off. It would be nice if Dragon Age featured a little more racial diversity both in the CC and in the NPCs.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 07 mars 2013 - 01:47 .

[Althix]

well Merrill part makes me sad, but Sparkle part even the balance. so i guess it's ok.

[Plaintiff]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Would an Australian want an "African American" looking character? Wouldn't "African Australian" be slightly more appropriate, or just, you know, "black"?

I guess they might have a special PC term for Australians of African descent. Australia's indigenous people are commonly called Aborigines and are dark-skinned. Any Australians on the BSN aware of any other respectful terms for that ethnic group?

The term used more often in recent years is 'Indigenous Australian'. I'm not sure if 'Aborigine' or 'Aboriginal' are considered offensive per se, but we generally say 'Indigenous Australians' now regardless.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

But those aren't people of African descent, obviously.

I think it may be extremely racist for any Australian to call anyone an African Australian, since it implies that everyone who is black has to have ancestry in Africa, which is definitely not the norm in Australia.

[Zkyire]

As for the whole African-Nationality thing, it's ridiculous.

When Serenity came out, I saw a good few people on forums (and I vaguely remember an article, though I can't remember the name) that called Chiwetel Ejiofor (the guy who played the Operative) an "African American", despite the fact that he was born and raised in England.

Modifié par Zkyire, 07 mars 2013 - 02:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I completely and utterly do not care...

As long as I'm not negatively influenced, anyone can have whatever they want. An they can if I am negatively influenced too, since I'm too lazy to do anything about it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Racial diversity just for the sake of racial diversity is pointless.

Was Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves progressive because it had Morgan Freeman in it? It could be said it was extremely racist, because only one black person was in the movie... how dare they! And only one non-white race... those bigots!

Except that the story is based in Medieval England, a time when next to no one in that region had seen or even heard of people of a different skin tone. The movie went to great lengths to explain why Morgan Freeman's character was there, and many characters commented on his difference in background, ethnicity and religious outlook.

To date, I believe we have only seen two confirmed Rivani characters in Thedas: Isabella and Duncan. Some Isabella's cohorts were implied to also possibly be from Rivain, but this is not confirmed that I can recall.

Both of these characters are shown as dark skinned. Rivain is said to have people with skin tones ranging from tan to dark, which could possibly include those who we would call "black" in the real world.

The devs have stated that the engine limitations prevented allowing characters with darker tones to be present in the game. So this may change in DA3 and further.

But that doesn't mean that the game should suddenly start throwing in East Asian appearances, nor South Asian (Either Hindu or Oceanic), etc., simply because THERE IS NO IN GAME REASON FOR IT.

Mass Effect did a good job of showcasing humans from multiple races and backgrounds. Mostly because it was based off a real Earth, where people of all different races have moved into the galactic stage.

Thedas is not so. It is a continent with people who very closely mimic Medieval Europe, both in language, style and appearance. To randomly start throwing new human ethnicities in the mix (suddenly, everyone in Antiva isn't Italian, but ASIAN!) would be to violate the lore established. Could new lands and people's be found? Sure, absolutely. After all, humans had to come from somewhere when they landed in Par Vollen and founded the Tevinter Imperium.

But if this were done, they would be introduced as a new group, a new nation that would have its own idiosyncracies and its own culture. It would not be "racially progressive" or be integrating new races into the world of Thedas, it would just be a new group. You could make them black, white, yellow, purple or grey with giant horns coming out of their heads.

In a fantasy setting, if the game has outlined different appearances as being the norm, then it would be silly if the writers just changed that to make some racially diverse, hand holding, rainbow of ethnicities in an attempt to look more politically correct. But if they want to introduce a new culture with new appearances, it is certainly within their rights to do so. Personally, in a fantasy setting, I'd rather see new fantastic creatures/beings introduced, rather than a blatant attempt to bring a new real-world ethnicity "into the fold" of the collective gaming experience.

If the DA team had a time machine and could make every nation and race represented in Thedas right from the get go, this may have been different. But to change things now and break the established lore not for the sake of story, but for the sake of appearing sensitive to the other races who are playing their game would seem incredibly hollow, hokey and a bit insulting.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 mars 2013 - 03:03 .

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

But those aren't people of African descent, obviously.

I think it may be extremely racist for any Australian to call anyone an African Australian, since it implies that everyone who is black has to have ancestry in Africa, which is definitely not the norm in Australia.

No, I was answering the posters question about the term by which we address descendants of the native population.

I don't think anybody claimed that "African Australian" was the appropriate term to use for every person in Australia with dark skin. I certainly didn't say that.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 mars 2013 - 03:08 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Ironic. That's all I'm saying.

[Darth Death]

When will people understand that culture & your surroundings is what defines you & not your skin color?

[Plaintiff]

Darth Death wrote...

When will people understand that culture & your surroundings is what defines you & not your skin color?

Well that's also oversimplifying it.

But yes, skin colour shouldn't matter. But people want to see characters in media that look a bit like them, and I don't think that's an unreasonable request. If skin colour doesn't matter than putting a black or Asian character into a videogame should be a non-issue, but it appears to be a struggle for a lot of people.

Heck, most fantasy videogames are set in worlds where non-white humans simply don't exist.

In the case of Dragon Age, adding a whole new culture would be no small feat (although we know that there is such a thing as dark-skinned Fereldens and Orlesians). I'm not saying every individual work should be required to meet a quota of non-white characters, certainly individuals have the right to create any sort of fantasy world they want.

Rather, we should be looking at the industry as a whole; asking why the lack of non-white characters is such a long-lasting trend, and how that can be corrected.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 mars 2013 - 03:36 .

[Althix]

Darth Death wrote...

When will people understand that culture & your surroundings is what defines you & not your skin color?

oh shiet.

so i should be low life, with alcohol addiction, with no education and good job like the rest of people i grow up with?

or all black people should be useless vagabonds who are stealing stipend  for education from other people only to be caught by police and deported back to africa?

you make what you are, not parents, not surrounding and not a culture. if you fight for better live as you see it - you will have it.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 07 mars 2013 - 03:41 .