159 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortlowe]

These 'established lore' and 'based o Europe' arguments about excluding black people from this game is complete drivel. The 'established lore' is that there are black people in Thedas, that most of them are from Rivain, and that seeing many outside of Rivain is not an uncommon occurrence. And if we're excluding blacks because they were in Medieval Europe, well a: that bollocks because there were blacks in Medieval Europe, and b: we better get rid of all of these lady warriors too, because female knights were definitely not the norm.

The exclusion of black characters was a technical limitation that is no longer the case. There will be black characters in DA3. Deal with it.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I'm not sure if this is in response to my post or not, but I did say black Rivain characters would be fine and good to have from a lore perspective, especially with the new engine.

I was simply saying if we're going to start including all races of the real world for no other reason other than being PC, that would be stupid.

[Fortlowe]

It was, but you are not the only one that posts these dumb arguments supporting the exclusion of black characters as a rule of thumb. It was largely in response to that entire train of thought.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Fortlowe is just mad because Anderson isn't in the game. XD

[What a Succulent Ass]

It's stupid to think that the presence of everyone but white people needs to be "justified." Skin colour is not a political statement. That is such an idiotic argument.

[RedArmyShogun]

Reads op's whole post

"Please don't let me see BSN on public TV as a controversial thing again."

...ha...ha...ahahahahahahahahaha! Ahh Good one OP! Good one!

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Plaintiff wrote...

I liked the segment, but was surprised that they used Deus Ex as an example of a racially insensitive product. I thought that overall, it presented a wide variety of Chinese characters. Even if many of them were corrupt or violent, they weren't anymore so than the white characters in Detroit.

Have you played it? Black people in Human Revolution were very stereotyped.

[Plaintiff]

Random Jerkface wrote...

It's stupid to think that the presence of everyone but white people needs to be "justified." Skin colour is not a political statement. That is such an idiotic argument.

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 mars 2013 - 04:41 .

[Plaintiff]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I liked the segment, but was surprised that they used Deus Ex as an example of a racially insensitive product. I thought that overall, it presented a wide variety of Chinese characters. Even if many of them were corrupt or violent, they weren't anymore so than the white characters in Detroit.

Have you played it? Black people in Human Revolution were very stereotyped.

Yes, twice. I didn't really see a problem, except that there weren't many prominent black characters in it.

[Captain Crash]

Interesting. I think in the end this video was overstating its point. The round up conclusion stated games need more diversity in order to have longevity.

No, they just needs to be a good games.

[lil yonce]

Just to chime in, I'm African American and I don't get upset when someone calls me black. It's only offensive when its obviously meant to be offensive.

And African American in the US means something more specific than just black -- something more than descendants of Sub-Saharan Africans that live in America. African American in the US is a more specific ethnic group. Descendants of Sub-Saharan African slaves with some Native American Indian and white European ancestry that have lived for generations in the US. Quite a few have something else in their recent ancestory too, but baseline that's African American.

Black immigrants or mixed race indivduals who look like black Americans, live here, and embrace African American culture often identify as African American. Like President Obama. In that way its a social construct.

[lil yonce]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Have you played it? Black people in Human Revolution were very stereotyped.

I thought so too.

[John Epler]

It's easy to say 'it's just a game, they shouldn't get offended' when you're not a part of the group that is underserved by media. 'What's the problem?' you ask yourself, 'I wouldn't mind if some characters were black, why do they care if the characters are white?'

But that's the thing, really. It's not 'some characters are white' it's '95% of characters are white'. And male. And straight. It's all part of the same problem - we, as an industry, are pretty bad at being inclusive. It's getting better, but slowly, and there's a reason why stuff like #1reasonwhy resonates so heavily. We are still, at our core, an incredibly insular and exclusive industry that pushes anyone who doesn't fit into the standard 'straight, white male' demographic to the fringes.

So rather than saying 'it's not an issue!', try and understand how frustrating it would be to be in a world where it's always subtly hinted that straight, white and male is the 'normal' way to be, because that's the majority of what's represented in media. And then maybe don't take umbrage when folks call the industry out on these issues.

[StElmo]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Just to chime in, I'm African American and I don't get upset when someone calls me black. It's only offensive when its obviously meant to be offensive.

And African American in the US means something more specific than just black -- something more than descendants of Sub-Saharan Africans that live in America. African American in the US is a more specific ethnic group. Descendants of Sub-Saharan African slaves with some Native American Indian and white European ancestry that have lived for generations in the US. Quite a few have something else in their recent ancestory too, but baseline that's African American.

Black immigrants or mixed race indivduals who look like black Americans, live here, and embrace African American culture often identify as African American. Like President Obama. In that way its a social construct.

Thanks for your response. I hope this thread hasn't derailed to the point of being destructive, I haven't checked it for a few hours and it seems to ahve kicked off a bit.

Also thanks for the corrections

[EpicBoot2daFace]

John Epler wrote...

It's easy to say 'it's just a game, they shouldn't get offended' when you're not a part of the group that is underserved by media. 'What's the problem?' you ask yourself, 'I wouldn't mind if some characters were black, why do they care if the characters are white?'

But that's the thing, really. It's not 'some characters are white' it's '95% of characters are white'. And male. And straight. It's all part of the same problem - we, as an industry, are pretty bad at being inclusive. It's getting better, but slowly, and there's a reason why stuff like #1reasonwhy resonates so heavily. We are still, at our core, an incredibly insular and exclusive industry that pushes anyone who doesn't fit into the standard 'straight, white male' demographic to the fringes.

So rather than saying 'it's not an issue!', try and understand how frustrating it would be to be in a world where it's always subtly hinted that straight, white and male is the 'normal' way to be, because that's the majority of what's represented in media. And then maybe don't take umbrage when folks call the industry out on these issues.

Gears of War: Judgment's box art is the perfect example. It's the story of Cole and Baird, but Baird (because he's white) is featured as the main character on the cover. If you didn't know that they were both main characters in the story, you would automatically assume that the story is centered around Baird.

[StElmo]

John Epler wrote...

It's easy to say 'it's just a game, they shouldn't get offended' when you're not a part of the group that is underserved by media. 'What's the problem?' you ask yourself, 'I wouldn't mind if some characters were black, why do they care if the characters are white?'

But that's the thing, really. It's not 'some characters are white' it's '95% of characters are white'. And male. And straight. It's all part of the same problem - we, as an industry, are pretty bad at being inclusive. It's getting better, but slowly, and there's a reason why stuff like #1reasonwhy resonates so heavily. We are still, at our core, an incredibly insular and exclusive industry that pushes anyone who doesn't fit into the standard 'straight, white male' demographic to the fringes.

So rather than saying 'it's not an issue!', try and understand how frustrating it would be to be in a world where it's always subtly hinted that straight, white and male is the 'normal' way to be, because that's the majority of what's represented in media. And then maybe don't take umbrage when folks call the industry out on these issues.

This is why BioWare is a great studio, probably the best, for diversity in its games, you guys have a level of empathy required for this kind of thing to deliver content that respects diversity without exploiting it with stereotypes.

You can see it's genuine when its staff can write so eloquently as this.

Nice one *thumbs up*

Modifié par StElmo, 07 mars 2013 - 05:05 .

[Lenimph]

I find it interesting that that's what they focused on instead of the Isabela mod...

[EpicBoot2daFace]

StElmo wrote...

John Epler wrote...

It's easy to say 'it's just a game, they shouldn't get offended' when you're not a part of the group that is underserved by media. 'What's the problem?' you ask yourself, 'I wouldn't mind if some characters were black, why do they care if the characters are white?'

But that's the thing, really. It's not 'some characters are white' it's '95% of characters are white'. And male. And straight. It's all part of the same problem - we, as an industry, are pretty bad at being inclusive. It's getting better, but slowly, and there's a reason why stuff like #1reasonwhy resonates so heavily. We are still, at our core, an incredibly insular and exclusive industry that pushes anyone who doesn't fit into the standard 'straight, white male' demographic to the fringes.

So rather than saying 'it's not an issue!', try and understand how frustrating it would be to be in a world where it's always subtly hinted that straight, white and male is the 'normal' way to be, because that's the majority of what's represented in media. And then maybe don't take umbrage when folks call the industry out on these issues.

This is why BioWare is a great studio, probably the best, for diversity in its games, you guys have a level of empathy required for this kind of thing to deliver content that respects diversity without exploiting it with stereotypes.

You can see it's genuine when its staff can write so eloquently as this.

Nice one *thumbs up*

Perhaps the ME team. They actually did feature black/hispanic characters and openly gay characters in their games. The DA team just made everyone bisexual and decided that black characters don't really matter since the engine couldn't render anyone that didn't already look white... which is ****ing hilarious and sad at the same time.

[StElmo]

Lenimph wrote...

I find it interesting that that's what they focused on instead of the Isabela mod...

As far as I know, the show has a very tight schedule, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just missed something like that. I don't even know what that is, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

[Commander Kurt]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

John Epler wrote...

It's easy to say 'it's just a game, they shouldn't get offended' when you're not a part of the group that is underserved by media. 'What's the problem?' you ask yourself, 'I wouldn't mind if some characters were black, why do they care if the characters are white?'

But that's the thing, really. It's not 'some characters are white' it's '95% of characters are white'. And male. And straight. It's all part of the same problem - we, as an industry, are pretty bad at being inclusive. It's getting better, but slowly, and there's a reason why stuff like #1reasonwhy resonates so heavily. We are still, at our core, an incredibly insular and exclusive industry that pushes anyone who doesn't fit into the standard 'straight, white male' demographic to the fringes.

So rather than saying 'it's not an issue!', try and understand how frustrating it would be to be in a world where it's always subtly hinted that straight, white and male is the 'normal' way to be, because that's the majority of what's represented in media. And then maybe don't take umbrage when folks call the industry out on these issues.

Gears of War: Judgment's box art is the perfect example. It's the story of Cole and Baird, but Baird (because he's white) is featured as the main character on the cover. If you didn't know that they were both main characters in the story, you would automatically assume that the story is centered around Baird.

Wow, that is... nasty, really.  

[Fast Jimmy]

Random Jerkface wrote...

It's stupid to think that the presence of everyone but white people needs to be "justified." Skin colour is not a political statement. That is such an idiotic argument.

It's stupid to think that existing story should be ignored to make a change that has no benefit other than inclusion. Skin colour is not a narrative enhancement. That is such an idiotic argument.

See? We can all make general, broad statements that are dismissive and insulting. Aren't we all special little snowflakes. 


Again, Rivani characters being black is not a problem (at all) for me. Qunari being changed from bronze giants into grey-skinned horned beasts bothered me. Changing everyone in Orlais into another ethnicity besides the Anglo-Saxon French-based ethnicity would also bother me. It would bother me for the same reason.

I don't think that makes me racist. I think it makes me someone who thinks narrative and lore should be the baseline upon which most decisions are made, not real-life race relations and inclusion.

I don't mind any sexuality representation in games, either. I think its a little silly to make everyone bi-sexual (I see it more as a result of gameplay and story-telling limitations rather than true attempts at inclusion), but its hardly a deal breaker, since sexual preference rates in the lore are never given or outlined. We've seen S/S couples in the game (Branka and Hespith, arguably Leliana and Marjolie and also Wade and Herren) and these characters have encountered no bigotry for such in the game, so I will give them no bigotry in real life for it.

We have seen no examples of any other ethnicities other than whites aside from Rivani, so I don't see a reason to start including them unless Bioware wants to introduce them as an entirely new group. Again, not against it, but I think it would be silly to suddenly start turning people in Thedas into Hispanic, Indian, Asian, Middle Eastern or Inuit without a clear reason why.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

It's stupid to think that the presence of everyone but white people needs to be "justified." Skin colour is not a political statement. That is such an idiotic argument.

It's stupid to think that existing story should be ignored to make a change that has no benefit other than inclusion. Skin colour is not a narrative enhancement. That is such an idiotic argument.

See? We can all make general, broad statements that are dismissive and insulting. Aren't we all special little snowflakes. 


Again, Rivani characters being black is not a problem (at all) for me. Qunari being changed from bronze giants into grey-skinned horned beasts bothered me. Changing everyone in Orlais into another ethnicity besides the Anglo-Saxon French-based ethnicity would also bother me. It would bother me for the same reason.

I don't think that makes me racist. I think it makes me someone who thinks narrative and lore should be the baseline upon which most decisions are made, not real-life race relations and inclusion.

I don't mind any sexuality representation in games, either. I think its a little silly to make everyone bi-sexual (I see it more as a result of gameplay and story-telling limitations rather than true attempts at inclusion), but its hardly a deal breaker, since sexual preference rates in the lore are never given or outlined. We've seen S/S couples in the game (Branka and Hespith, arguably Leliana and Marjolie and also Wade and Herren) and these characters have encountered no bigotry for such in the game, so I will give them no bigotry in real life for it.

We have seen no examples of any other ethnicities other than whites aside from Rivani, so I don't see a reason to start including them unless Bioware wants to introduce them as an entirely new group. Again, not against it, but I think it would be silly to suddenly start turning people in Thedas into Hispanic, Indian, Asian, Middle Eastern or Inuit without a clear reason why.

I kinda liked that change.

[Masha Potato]

lol, they were GIANTS before, but since they got horns and grey skin they are now BEASTS

[Fast Jimmy]

StElmo wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

I find it interesting that that's what they focused on instead of the Isabela mod...

As far as I know, the show has a very tight schedule, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just missed something like that. I don't even know what that is, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

Speaking of Isabella, in The World of Thedas art, Isabella is depicted as being rather on the pale side.



Just to throw in some fuel on this fire.