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You know, I think Talon is the most powerful character of Reckoning and Geth Juggernout the Weakest.

Débuté par RedJohn , mars 07 2013 07:09

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#126
Guest_Heri_*
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 04:39

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RedJohn wrote...

No man, you are comparing there the damage of Reegar.

There the massive damage is more dealt by reegar than EDI.

You want a better example of that?, simple, take Reegar, incendiary IV and put it on your Asari Valkyrie, spec'd for full weapon damage and Warp for armor damage and expose, jump on platinum reapers and you will see that you can kill a Banshee from full health in 3 seconds.

Edi can't do that as far as I know.

So here EDI is not what it has huge damage output, it's reegar :o


Well by that logic no weapon-based class can ever be OP, it's only weapons that are OP. And Warp + Incendiary is a bug, not how the game was intended...unless BW out of laziness is now calling that a "feature" just like reload canceling. lulz

EDI is OP because she takes the highest DPS weapon in the game (it is the Reegar, right? if not it's still one of the highest) and makes it that much better via the shotgun tac cloak evo. The movement speed increase helps her DPS a bit - though I normally only activate RM when I need it out of respect for grenade-using teammates - but otherwise her DPS is basically the same with or without RM, because a good player will learn to live without the crutch that is RM.

Everyone (well, most of us who care about game balance) considers the GI overpowered, yet it's squishy as hell. So if the GI is OP based solely on its damage output, then EDI is definitely OP as well since her damage output with a shotgun is basically the same as the GI's . If you don't think the GI is OP, well, then there's no point in arguing further cause we'll just be talking past each other :whistle:

#127
vinlandhammer
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 04:41

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geth juggernaut....... true is super tank-like, can drain shields ........ but have more downsides then any other character.

- can't take cover
- can't pull over cover
- can't do grabs
- is faster like a snail
- can't do any evasive movement

this character is good if you've a barely good team wich are closer to you and if you know what you're supposed to do, this character is mostly a bosses-hunter, keep them busy as long you can meanwhile your team deal with smaller targets and then regroup with you to finish them off. on the other side you can act as a bodyguard by getting yourself between a banshee looking for insta-kill and your teammate, you can't stop her and save your teammate.

#128
RedJohn
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 04:42

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OniTYME wrote...

*Oni Wan Kenobi appears*
*waves hand*
"The Talon sucks. His DPS is VERY low."

I'm pleased everyone here thinks he sucks... LOL



people really say his DPS are low?



sparkydeltorro wrote...

Please stop talking about how excellent the Talon's apocalypse mines are. I don't want them getting nerfed..



They won't, because the bow is so so so so so so so bad, that to balance the character Cain mines should be buffed LOL.

#129
RedJohn
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 04:53

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Heri wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

No man, you are comparing there the damage of Reegar.

There the massive damage is more dealt by reegar than EDI.

You want a better example of that?, simple, take Reegar, incendiary IV and put it on your Asari Valkyrie, spec'd for full weapon damage and Warp for armor damage and expose, jump on platinum reapers and you will see that you can kill a Banshee from full health in 3 seconds.

Edi can't do that as far as I know.

So here EDI is not what it has huge damage output, it's reegar :o


Well by that logic no weapon-based class can ever be OP, it's only weapons that are OP. And Warp + Incendiary is a bug, not how the game was intended...unless BW out of laziness is now calling that a "feature" just like reload canceling. lulz

EDI is OP because she takes the highest DPS weapon in the game (it is the Reegar, right? if not it's still one of the highest) and makes it that much better via the shotgun tac cloak evo. The movement speed increase helps her DPS a bit - though I normally only activate RM when I need it out of respect for grenade-using teammates - but otherwise her DPS is basically the same with or without RM, because a good player will learn to live without the crutch that is RM.

Everyone (well, most of us who care about game balance) considers the GI overpowered, yet it's squishy as hell. So if the GI is OP based solely on its damage output, then EDI is definitely OP as well since her damage output with a shotgun is basically the same as the GI's . If you don't think the GI is OP, well, then there's no point in arguing further cause we'll just be talking past each other :whistle:


I know what you say, yes incendiary + Warp is bugged ( i think we should consider it a feature at this time :lol: )

but the thing is it depends from where we think it is OP, for me the damage output is fine, i don't have the exact numbers on who would deal more damage if EDI or GI but they are close, the thing is neither of them can deal a massive damage to more than 1 target at the same time.

Edi could with Snap freeze but teammates are required for that, let's focus in the character alone.

You see they can't do so much DPS as a Krogan Soldier with few granades, 9 meters going to hell and even worse if the Krogan uses Carnage, for me that is massive damage, Also batarian Soldier.


Of course, GI and EDI can deal more damage to a single enemy, but if we take the total time to clean a spawn then the soldiers go ahead.


I am not big fan of nerfing but I admit Repair Matrix should be rebalanced to be you know, more challenging.

#130
Guest_Heri_*
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 05:00

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Here are the numbers comparing the GI and EDI, assuming they're both using a Reegar:

GI gets 80% more damage from tac cloak, 20% from proximity mine, 17.5% from hunter mode, and 22.5% from the passive tree. Totals 140%

EDI gets 105% more damage from tac cloak, 10% more from snap freeze, and 25% more from the passive tree. Totals...wait for it...140%

Now I don't know if there's some funkiness with some abilities increasing damage additively vs. multiplicatively blahblahblah, but looks to me like their damage modifiers are exactly the same.

Yet with 5 ranks of fitness on the GI, and 4 ranks on EDI, these are their health/shield numbers:

GI - 350 health / 1050 shields
EDI - 675 health / 1012 shields

Except that it's even more lopsided in EDI's favor once you factor in the hunter mode shield reduction. And this is NOT factoring in repair matrix.

So from my perspective, using a shotgun EDI is already more OP than the GI without even taking RM into account.

Which means even if RM were COMPLETELY REMOVED from EDI, she would STILL be better than the GI with a shotgun.

That's why my point is that for both EDI and the GI, they are OP for basically the sole reason that they take powerful weapons and make them *that* much more powerful, moreso than basically anyone else.

Good players will always be able to work around survivability problems, unless we're talking about giving EDI the health and shields of a Volus. I might, MIGHT consider the GI balanced if the wallhack from hunter mode were removed, but even then I dunno.

So that's the problem when you couple powerful weapons (which have grown exponentially MORE powerful as the game's progressed) with classes that vastly increase the power of those weapons even more. They will *always* be unbalanced until you either a) nerf the survivability of those characters to the point of them being nearly unplayable, or B) nerf their damage output.

Personally I'd rather prefer damage output nerfs than turning half the classes in this game into glass cannons.

#131
Voorhees88
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 05:16

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Bechter wrote...

nerf him then


#132
RedJohn
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 05:34

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Heri wrote...

Here are the numbers comparing the GI and EDI, assuming they're both using a Reegar:

GI gets 80% more damage from tac cloak, 20% from proximity mine, 17.5% from hunter mode, and 22.5% from the passive tree. Totals 140%

EDI gets 105% more damage from tac cloak, 10% more from snap freeze, and 25% more from the passive tree. Totals...wait for it...140%

Now I don't know if there's some funkiness with some abilities increasing damage additively vs. multiplicatively blahblahblah, but looks to me like their damage modifiers are exactly the same.

Yet with 5 ranks of fitness on the GI, and 4 ranks on EDI, these are their health/shield numbers:

GI - 350 health / 1050 shields
EDI - 675 health / 1012 shields

Except that it's even more lopsided in EDI's favor once you factor in the hunter mode shield reduction. And this is NOT factoring in repair matrix.

So from my perspective, using a shotgun EDI is already more OP than the GI without even taking RM into account.

Which means even if RM were COMPLETELY REMOVED from EDI, she would STILL be better than the GI with a shotgun.

That's why my point is that for both EDI and the GI, they are OP for basically the sole reason that they take powerful weapons and make them *that* much more powerful, moreso than basically anyone else.

Good players will always be able to work around survivability problems, unless we're talking about giving EDI the health and shields of a Volus. I might, MIGHT consider the GI balanced if the wallhack from hunter mode were removed, but even then I dunno.

So that's the problem when you couple powerful weapons (which have grown exponentially MORE powerful as the game's progressed) with classes that vastly increase the power of those weapons even more. They will *always* be unbalanced until you either a) nerf the survivability of those characters to the point of them being nearly unplayable, or B) nerf their damage output.

Personally I'd rather prefer damage output nerfs than turning half the classes in this game into glass cannons.



Good point, yes, the damage output seems amazing, but the thing is, both of them can't deal AoE damage, but to use that firepower into multiples enemies in a very short period of time the player must be very skilled, then we fall again in the fact that good players makes everything good :P


most of players can't do a use of those huge numbers in a match but almost all players can use the "inmortality" of Repair Matrix :P

#133
Tallgeese_VII
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 05:44

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RedJohn wrote...

Heri wrote...

Here are the numbers comparing the GI and EDI, assuming they're both using a Reegar:

GI gets 80% more damage from tac cloak, 20% from proximity mine, 17.5% from hunter mode, and 22.5% from the passive tree. Totals 140%

EDI gets 105% more damage from tac cloak, 10% more from snap freeze, and 25% more from the passive tree. Totals...wait for it...140%

Now I don't know if there's some funkiness with some abilities increasing damage additively vs. multiplicatively blahblahblah, but looks to me like their damage modifiers are exactly the same.

Yet with 5 ranks of fitness on the GI, and 4 ranks on EDI, these are their health/shield numbers:

GI - 350 health / 1050 shields
EDI - 675 health / 1012 shields

Except that it's even more lopsided in EDI's favor once you factor in the hunter mode shield reduction. And this is NOT factoring in repair matrix.

So from my perspective, using a shotgun EDI is already more OP than the GI without even taking RM into account.

Which means even if RM were COMPLETELY REMOVED from EDI, she would STILL be better than the GI with a shotgun.

That's why my point is that for both EDI and the GI, they are OP for basically the sole reason that they take powerful weapons and make them *that* much more powerful, moreso than basically anyone else.

Good players will always be able to work around survivability problems, unless we're talking about giving EDI the health and shields of a Volus. I might, MIGHT consider the GI balanced if the wallhack from hunter mode were removed, but even then I dunno.

So that's the problem when you couple powerful weapons (which have grown exponentially MORE powerful as the game's progressed) with classes that vastly increase the power of those weapons even more. They will *always* be unbalanced until you either a) nerf the survivability of those characters to the point of them being nearly unplayable, or B) nerf their damage output.

Personally I'd rather prefer damage output nerfs than turning half the classes in this game into glass cannons.



Good point, yes, the damage output seems amazing, but the thing is, both of them can't deal AoE damage, but to use that firepower into multiples enemies in a very short period of time the player must be very skilled, then we fall again in the fact that good players makes everything good :P


most of players can't do a use of those huge numbers in a match but almost all players can use the "inmortality" of Repair Matrix :P


It does not take skill to spam Proximity mine & Snap freeze between Tactical Cloak...

#134
Guest_Heri_*
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 06:15

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RedJohn wrote...

Good point, yes, the damage output seems amazing, but the thing is, both of them can't deal AoE damage, but to use that firepower into multiples enemies in a very short period of time the player must be very skilled, then we fall again in the fact that good players makes everything good :P


most of players can't do a use of those huge numbers in a match but almost all players can use the "inmortality" of Repair Matrix :P


Yes, good players make everything good, but they make the most powerful classes that much more powerful. The ceiling for a well-played EDI is so much higher than the ceiling for a well-played QFI, for example. That ceiling is the problem, not what the average player is doing with the kit.

Personally I think most EDIs I see in plat pugs are terrible. If I'm playing my PPR Destroyer and I'm beating you, when you're using EDI with a Reegar, you're bad - plain and simple.

So if the standard by what we judge whether something is OP or not is the "average" player, then no, EDI isn't overpowered. To use a Reegar requires careful positioning skills that your average player isn't going to have, and to use something like a Claymore requires good aiming because if you miss, your DPS goes down the ****ter.

But how i judge whether or not something is OP is by what the best players can do with it on the hardest difficulty. And what the best players can do with EDI is downright heinous.

#135
january42
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 06:19

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RedJohn wrote...


I am not big fan of nerfing but I admit Repair Matrix should be rebalanced to be you know, more challenging.


Out of morbid curiosity...why?

Your good enough that it probably won't change much either way. I mean, if you go down once or twice a match anyway, repair matrix isn't helping you much.

And if if someone else is using it....it just means you don't have to go revive their bum-bum if they arn't that good.  It's like playing with a ghost with less chance they need baby sitting.

I guess I just don't see the downside here.

#136
Guest_Heri_*
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 06:24

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january42 wrote...

RedJohn wrote...


I am not big fan of nerfing but I admit Repair Matrix should be rebalanced to be you know, more challenging.


Out of morbid curiosity...why?

Your good enough that it probably won't change much either way. I mean, if you go down once or twice a match anyway, repair matrix isn't helping you much.

And if if someone else is using it....it just means you don't have to go revive their bum-bum if they arn't that good.  It's like playing with a ghost with less chance they need baby sitting.

I guess I just don't see the downside here.


The problem with repair matrix is not the self-rez, yet people keep focusing on it as if it were the only feature of RM. The real problem is the move speed increase coupled with DR and shield regen that happens even during cloak.

Those are all things that keep you from even dying in the first place.

#137
january42
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 06:29

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The problem with repair matrix is not the self-rez, yet people keep focusing on it as if it were the only feature of RM. The real problem is the move speed increase coupled with DR and shield regen that happens even during cloak.

Those are all things that keep you from even dying in the first place.


How is that a problem? Teammates dying is annoying. Teammates not dying? less annoying.

Modifié par january42, 08 mars 2013 - 06:30 .

#138
GunWraith
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 07:58

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Heri wrote...

Here are the numbers comparing the GI and EDI, assuming they're both using a Reegar:

GI gets 80% more damage from tac cloak, 20% from proximity mine, 17.5% from hunter mode, and 22.5% from the passive tree. Totals 140%

EDI gets 105% more damage from tac cloak, 10% more from snap freeze, and 25% more from the passive tree. Totals...wait for it...140%

Now I don't know if there's some funkiness with some abilities increasing damage additively vs. multiplicatively blahblahblah, but looks to me like their damage modifiers are exactly the same.

Yet with 5 ranks of fitness on the GI, and 4 ranks on EDI, these are their health/shield numbers:

GI - 350 health / 1050 shields
EDI - 675 health / 1012 shields

Except that it's even more lopsided in EDI's favor once you factor in the hunter mode shield reduction. And this is NOT factoring in repair matrix.

So from my perspective, using a shotgun EDI is already more OP than the GI without even taking RM into account.

Which means even if RM were COMPLETELY REMOVED from EDI, she would STILL be better than the GI with a shotgun.

That's why my point is that for both EDI and the GI, they are OP for basically the sole reason that they take powerful weapons and make them *that* much more powerful, moreso than basically anyone else.

Good players will always be able to work around survivability problems, unless we're talking about giving EDI the health and shields of a Volus. I might, MIGHT consider the GI balanced if the wallhack from hunter mode were removed, but even then I dunno.

So that's the problem when you couple powerful weapons (which have grown exponentially MORE powerful as the game's progressed) with classes that vastly increase the power of those weapons even more. They will *always* be unbalanced until you either a) nerf the survivability of those characters to the point of them being nearly unplayable, or B) nerf their damage output.

Personally I'd rather prefer damage output nerfs than turning half the classes in this game into glass cannons.


Are we also factoring in boosts from Geth weapons, like maybe the GPS? Are we also looking at the component of Hunter Mode that sees through walls, so that you can be prepared for unknown situations? Are we factoring in that the debuff from Prox Mine STACKS 3 TIMES?

While I agree RM 'must' be adjusted, you cannot compare the raw DPS capability of the GI to EDI and have her come out on top. Unless of course you ignore the things that have made the GI the most OP class in the game since it was released.

Addendum: I didn't even mention that equipment-wise, the GI is much more flexible than EDI, since Prox Mine doesn't run off grenades. So if you plan on using Shock Trooper or Grenade Cap, you are sacrificing more percentile DPS. If you for some reason wanted to use Geth Scanner so that you can see through walls like the GI, you take a huge percentage hit.

Modifié par GunWraith, 08 mars 2013 - 08:03 .

#139
burr beer
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 08:06

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RedJohn what is your build for the Talon to maximize mine effectiveness?

#140
RedJohn
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 08:59

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burr beer wrote...

RedJohn what is your build for the Talon to maximize mine effectiveness?



I run with 0 fitness, cain for max damage and the others for max granades

I get 12 granades without Granade amp V, 17 with it :D

#141
IamZAE
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 09:07

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I have a proposal.. Nerf repair matrix so you don't bleed out, but still need a teammate to revive you and you don't have to press A or spacebar.. You now add risk for teammates reviving you if you charge like an idiot in a bad situation. Medical is saved if you have teammates who care for you but if you are solong then you gotta get your behind up

#142
january42
Posté 08 mars 2013 - 09:18

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RedJohn wrote...

burr beer wrote...

RedJohn what is your build for the Talon to maximize mine effectiveness?



I run with 0 fitness, cain for max damage and the others for max granades

I get 12 granades without Granade amp V, 17 with it :D


Yeah, I'm changing over to this.  Swapped the crusader for a scorpion + power boosters. (Gun reccomendations would be appreciated)   It's better, but just  depressing. The bow is sooooooo worthless.    I'll respec for max grenades when I get around to it.   

#143
RedJohn
Posté 11 mars 2013 - 05:04

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Also I must say that Talon is the easiest character to solo gold with.

#144
DHKany
Posté 11 mars 2013 - 05:09

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RedJohn wrote...

COLZ7R wrote...

I am not getting how the aiu is not the most powerful? The biggest moaners about her aint even ranking her the most powerfull!! Wtf. What was all the ****ing about then?


People just don't understand.

She is obscenely broken, but her damage output is not special, because what is broken is repair matrix.



Image IPB

#145
Deucetipher
Posté 11 mars 2013 - 05:18

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RedJohn wrote...

burr beer wrote...

RedJohn what is your build for the Talon to maximize mine effectiveness?



I run with 0 fitness, cain for max damage and the others for max granades

I get 12 granades without Granade amp V, 17 with it :D


I thought about doing this, but most of the time I never have max grenades after wave one.  Thermals only pop 10 grenades anyway.  I went with fitness spec instead.  I guess with no fitness you could roll without grenade capacity gear and grab something to improve weapon or power damage.

#146
Guest_GohanOwns_*
Posté 11 mars 2013 - 05:21

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Lol John, you say juggernaut is the weakest? Have you even tried using a PPR on him? I heard the giant portable soft cover he has helps a lot.

#147
Revrant
Posté 11 mars 2013 - 05:27

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You're playing him wrong, he's best as a support/tank character, not as a tanky DPS, so your opinion is invalid.

#148
Guest_GohanOwns_*
Posté 11 mars 2013 - 05:29

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^ i play him as i want, how does it matter to you? =/

edit: also, playing juggernaut without an infinite ammo weapon is a massive fail. I once tried the brophoon with him and that was the worst match i had with him. Staying alive in a plat game helps you tank as well. How're you supposed to tank with your face on the floor? :P

Modifié par GohanOwns, 11 mars 2013 - 05:33 .

#149
RedJohn
Posté 11 mars 2013 - 06:42

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GohanOwns wrote...

Lol John, you say juggernaut is the weakest? Have you even tried using a PPR on him? I heard the giant portable soft cover he has helps a lot.



I'm basing this in damage output, in my opinion Juggy is the weakest.

He is a tank yes, but that doesn't mean he is strong :P


And yes I have tried PPR on him, but personally I prefeer Typhoon, even if I have to visit ammo boxes sometimes.

#150
Guest_GohanOwns_*
Posté 11 mars 2013 - 06:52

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Then imo cabal is even worse. Totally unusable off host, Nightshade blades ain't spammable and no warp ammo bonus/setting up biosplosion/incendiary cheese. Only thing she has is the passives and the only way to make the most out of them is by equipping a harrier/hurricane/lancer which you can do on any other character.
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