89 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

Lyncoln-Ap wrote...

As we can see, real world is different from mass effect world. And I am not speculating when I say that James and Ashley are lieutenant commanders. This is clearly stated in Canon sources.

Is James really a Lt Cdr?  I thought he was just a Lt.

Lyncoln-Ap wrote...
The only reference of his rank as lieutenant commander is a very old codex entry. This changed since then. His companions were promoted after the battle of citadel. Why not him?

Perhaps he was.  If he were promoted from Lt Cdr to Staff Cdr everybody would still call him "Commander".

Lyncoln-Ap wrote...
More strangely, even if he were not, why the others of his supposed rank are called differently than him? The only other Staff Commander seen in the game was Kaidan, in ME2 and he was called Staff Commander only when Anderson was telling Shepard about his(Kaidan's) promotion. Every other single time was just "commander", as Sheppard.

That makes sense because there is a difference between Lt Cdr and Staff Cdr.  Anderson using the full rank is him being specific with Shepard.  Just because Lt Cdr is normally abbreviated to Cdr doesn't mean that nobody ever says the full rank when it is helpful to do so.

[CaptainZaysh]

PSUHammer wrote...

At the end of the day...does it really freaking matter?

In the cosmic scheme of things does anything that happens on Earth really matter?

[nos_astra]

Lyncoln-Ap wrote...
As we can see, real world is different from mass effect world. And I am not speculating when I say that James and Ashley are lieutenant commanders. This is clearly stated in Canon sources. They are, however, still called lieutenants in the game, multiple times. Shepard never were. The only reference of his rank as lieutenant commander is a very old codex entry. This changed since then. His companions were promoted after the battle of citadel. Why not him? More strangely, even if he were not, why the others of his supposed rank are called differently than him? The only other Staff Commander seen in the game was Kaidan, in ME2 and he was called Staff Commander only when Anderson was telling Shepard about his(Kaidan's) promotion. Every other single time was just "commander", as Sheppard.

I am speculating when I say Bioware didn't think too hard on the ranks and handed them out like candy. I don't think I'm wrong, though.

What's so hard about ignoring what the codex/game says and simply headcanon what makes sense?

Ashley --> Lt.
Vega --> Lt. 
Kaidan --> Cdr.
Shepard --> Cdr.

You're free to choose whether Kaidan and Shepard are of equal rank or which one has the higher rank. Same for Ashley and Vega.
I think, we could assume that Shepard got a (posthumous) promotion after the Battle of the Citadel. But it's not really important considering that Shepard spent lots of time dead, then being led around by the nose by T.I.M.

Problem solved. 

Keep in mind Anderson was an N7, a Spectre candidate and was just captain of a small frigate in ME1 at age ... 50?

Modifié par klarabella, 08 mars 2013 - 01:30 .

[Getorex]

capn233 wrote...

Throughout Citadel, for some reason Shep seems to refer to Ash as "LT."  And when he goes to the bar in the Casino to meet her, he even specifically says "I'm looking for a Lieutenant Williams."  Not Commander...

Probably an oversight (like the bonus power), but I think it is odd that this could happen.

And no I don't feel any nerd rage or anything of that nature.

That would be actually be a justifiable retcon because there is NO WAY Ashley made it to LtCmdr in the timeframe of the game. NO WAY.  She was an ENLISTED troop in ME1 and ME2, then suddenly in ME3 she is an LtCmdr (same as a Major in the army/air force/marines). Impossible. IF ME3 had all happened about 10 years or so after ME2 then it might be possible but that isn't the timeframe.  The highest rank she could have reasonably attained is Lt.  Plain old Lt. 

Just because one is prior enlisted, it does NOT award the individual accelerated promotion when/if they decide to go commissioned officer.  They STILL have to start at the bottom and STILL have to fill in the time in each rank.  You do not get to jump right to Major (LtCmdr) in just a year or two or even three.  No way, no how.

Also...Ash was a MARINE, not navy (space navy or aquatic) and marines do NOT use navy ranks.  They use the standard, 2Lt, Lt, Capt, Maj, LtCol, Col, etc, etc. 

Modifié par Getorex, 08 mars 2013 - 01:36 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Getorex wrote...

Just because one is prior enlisted, it does NOT award the individual accelerated promotion when/if they decide to go commissioned officer.  They STILL have to start at the bottom and STILL have to fill in the time in each rank.  You do not get to jump right to Major (LtCmdr) in just a year or two or even three.  No way, no how.

As I posted earlier in the thread, Getor, that's wrong (at least in the British Army).  Prior enlisted ranks are commissioned as Captains, not 2nd Lieutenants.

[Dr_Extrem]

Getorex wrote...

capn233 wrote...

Throughout Citadel, for some reason Shep seems to refer to Ash as "LT."  And when he goes to the bar in the Casino to meet her, he even specifically says "I'm looking for a Lieutenant Williams."  Not Commander...

Probably an oversight (like the bonus power), but I think it is odd that this could happen.

And no I don't feel any nerd rage or anything of that nature.

That would be actually be a justifiable retcon because there is NO WAY Ashley made it to LtCmdr in the timeframe of the game. NO WAY.  She was an ENLISTED troop in ME1 and ME2, then suddenly in ME3 she is an LtCmdr (same as a Major in the army/air force/marines). Impossible. IF ME3 had all happened about 10 years or so after ME2 then it might be possible but that isn't the timeframe.  The highest rank she could have reasonably attained is Lt.  Plain old Lt. 

Just because one is prior enlisted, it does NOT award the individual accelerated promotion when/if they decide to go commissioned officer.  They STILL have to start at the bottom and STILL have to fill in the time in each rank.  You do not get to jump right to Major (LtCmdr) in just a year or two or even three.  No way, no how.

Also...Ash was a MARINE, not navy (space navy or aquatic) and marines do NOT use navy ranks.  They use the standard, 2Lt, Lt, Capt, Maj, LtCol, Col, etc, etc. 

yes . because they are members of the usmc


rtfc - read the ... lovely ... codex.


the alliancehas several branches in their armed forces. fighter pilots, neval personal and ground troops. and most of them share the same ranks. only the first 3 and the captain/major / rear admiral/general ranks have different names.

the alliance military is a more "united" armed force. they are working hand in hand and share the same headquarter and infra structure.

[Lyncoln-Ap]

Alliance's rank chart is unique, Getorex, different from the ones we have in the real world. Marines and Navy use the same chart, with small differences. And it seems to me that marines are a specialized branch of the navy, not a separate force per se.
Spoilers ahead: James is promoted to lieutenant commander in paragon lost, which takes place before ME3.
All I know it's that in my game Ashley topped in gunnery chief, if you know what I mean. Aside being annoying, her rank in ME3 is ridiculous, as her cat outfit.

Modifié par Lyncoln-Ap, 08 mars 2013 - 01:54 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Lyncoln-Ap wrote...

Spoilers ahead: James is promoted to lieutenant commander in paragon lost, which takes place before ME3.

Ah, thanks, I didn't see PL.  In that case I guess the canon explanation would be that, in the ME universe, "Lt Commander" can be shortened to either "Lt" or "Cdr".  (The more likely real explanation would be that BioWare is a bit shaky on military etiquette and they made a mistake.)

[azerSheppard]

Isn't Kaiden a Major?

[PSUHammer]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

At the end of the day...does it really freaking matter?

In the cosmic scheme of things does anything that happens on Earth really matter?

Of course.  But not a conversation around the suspected rank of an optional squad mate in a game.  I guess it is mingling material.

[CaptainZaysh]

PSUHammer wrote...

Of course.  But not a conversation around the suspected rank of an optional squad mate in a game.  I guess it is mingling material.

I think lots of people like to post about how Ash doesn't deserve her promotion because they just don't like Ash.  Personally I always try and post in these threads to educate people a little bit on how military promotions work; I figure the more civilians understand and take an interest in their armies the better.

[PSUHammer]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

Of course.  But not a conversation around the suspected rank of an optional squad mate in a game.  I guess it is mingling material.

I think lots of people like to post about how Ash doesn't deserve her promotion because they just don't like Ash.  Personally I always try and post in these threads to educate people a little bit on how military promotions work; I figure the more civilians understand and take an interest in their armies the better.

Yeah, I hear that...but aren't the ranks in the game slightly different?  They could technically cannonize whatever terminoligy they want in their universe.

Modifié par PSUHammer, 08 mars 2013 - 02:08 .

[CaptainZaysh]

PSUHammer wrote...

Yeah, I hear that...but aren't the ranks in the game slightly different?  They could technically cannonize whatever terminoligy they want in their universe.

Yeah.  Given the game's focus on the military, I think the whole trilogy could have been improved somewhat by BW hiring a military consultant to check the writing.  Not that it's a big deal, but they got some of the little details totally wrong which was a little jarring to me.  (I can totally overlook it, though.  They're way better at game design than I was at soldiering.)

[Getorex]

Lyncoln-Ap wrote...

Alliance's rank chart is unique, Getorex, different from the ones we have in the real world. Marines and Navy use the same chart, with small differences. And it seems to me that marines are a specialized branch of the navy, not a separate force per se.
Spoilers ahead: James is promoted to lieutenant commander in paragon lost, which takes place before ME3.
All I know it's that in my game Ashley topped in gunnery chief, if you know what I mean. Aside being annoying, her rank in ME3 is ridiculous, as her cat outfit.

I liked her blue armor in ME3 a LOT more than the awful default white armor nonsense in ME1 and 2.  C'mon, WHITE armor for general use?  In an arctic/snowy environment, sure, but otherwise it makes me think "stupid ridiculous Star Wars storm troopers in their retarded white combat armor".  It SCREAMS "Can you see me now?  Please shoot me first!"  Her blue suit was better (though her breasts should have remained as modest as in ME1 and 2) though I would have preferred to modify it to some type of olive/grayscale like some of the armors you could aquire in ME1. 

[iSousek]

This was an obvious developer oversight. Or maybe Shepard just calls everybody LT if they are some form of Lieutenant.

Debate about whether Ashley deserved the promotion or not is academic. She is Lt. Cmdr - deal with it.

[Getorex]

PSUHammer wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

Of course.  But not a conversation around the suspected rank of an optional squad mate in a game.  I guess it is mingling material.

I think lots of people like to post about how Ash doesn't deserve her promotion because they just don't like Ash.  Personally I always try and post in these threads to educate people a little bit on how military promotions work; I figure the more civilians understand and take an interest in their armies the better.

Yeah, I hear that...but aren't the ranks in the game slightly different?  They could technically cannonize whatever terminoligy they want in their universe.

They canonized a stupid rank structure NOT for any valid reason, just by being ignorant of the military in general. Not a single member of their writing or development staff have served and likely don't even have family members who did. 

Sorry, but the modern rank structure in ALL armies are equivalent.  There are no outrageous outliers across ALL countries on earth.  There is no reasonable explanation or argument one could make that would explain a total earth-wide rewrite of current ranks that have existed as such for over a century (and will last for centuries hence if we don't end ourselves).  In 100 years, a Captain in the army will STILL be beneath a Major and above a 1Lt.  Same with the Air Force (or future equivalent) and Marines.  In the Navy, a LtCmdr will STILL be the same as a Major, etc.  Modern ranks are stable over centuries.  They are not pliable.

[CaptainZaysh]

Getorex wrote...

I liked her blue armor in ME3 a LOT more than the awful default white armor nonsense in ME1 and 2.  C'mon, WHITE armor for general use?  In an arctic/snowy environment, sure, but otherwise it makes me think "stupid ridiculous Star Wars storm troopers in their retarded white combat armor".  It SCREAMS "Can you see me now?  Please shoot me first!"  Her blue suit was better (though her breasts should have remained as modest as in ME1 and 2) though I would have preferred to modify it to some type of olive/grayscale like some of the armors you could aquire in ME1. 

I agree that armour with tits on looks really silly.  (I guess maybe we could say it's a design fashion inspired by asari armour?  Maybe?)

The trouble with insisting on realism, though, is: where do you draw the line?  By 2283 there is very little chance that infantry problems will routinely be solved by knuckleheads carrying assault rifles.  Shepard should have played through every mission sat in a concrete bunker sipping coffee while directing remote drones and airstrikes.  (Personally I'd have loved a game like that, but I can see that I'd have a harder time pitching it than Heroic Space Marine Shoots Problems).

[Getorex]

iSousek wrote...

This was an obvious developer oversight. Or maybe Shepard just calls everybody LT if they are some form of Lieutenant.

Debate about whether Ashley deserved the promotion or not is academic. She is Lt. Cmdr - deal with it.

We can't change it but for those who KNOW what they are talking about (service members) it IS jarring and strikes of ridiculous.  The ONLY people in the military I've ever seen "skip" lower ranks and start above the bottom rung of officers is medical officers.  But they are a special case.  They go to med school and then enter years later AND they are 100% non-combatants who cannot command combat troops.  Ever.  Not even in a prisoner of war camp.  The highest ranking combat troop, even if that is an enlisted person, is the troop commander in prison camps, for instance, even if there is a chaplain or military med doctor of ANY officer rank.  Their rank (med or chaplain) is virtually superfluous as far as chain-of-command.  They drop into upper ranks because it doesn't really matter.

[CaptainZaysh]

Getorex wrote...

We can't change it but for those who KNOW what they are talking about (service members) it IS jarring and strikes of ridiculous.  The ONLY people in the military I've ever seen "skip" lower ranks and start above the bottom rung of officers is medical officers.  

I've personally seen three men do it.  One was in the dental corps (although not a dentist, just a soldier - he ran a dental unit).  The other two were paratroopers.  In each case they went straight from a senior NCO rank to Captain.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 08 mars 2013 - 02:24 .

[Getorex]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Getorex wrote...

I liked her blue armor in ME3 a LOT more than the awful default white armor nonsense in ME1 and 2.  C'mon, WHITE armor for general use?  In an arctic/snowy environment, sure, but otherwise it makes me think "stupid ridiculous Star Wars storm troopers in their retarded white combat armor".  It SCREAMS "Can you see me now?  Please shoot me first!"  Her blue suit was better (though her breasts should have remained as modest as in ME1 and 2) though I would have preferred to modify it to some type of olive/grayscale like some of the armors you could aquire in ME1. 

I agree that armour with tits on looks really silly.  (I guess maybe we could say it's a design fashion inspired by asari armour?  Maybe?)

The trouble with insisting on realism, though, is: where do you draw the line?  By 2283 there is very little chance that infantry problems will routinely be solved by knuckleheads carrying assault rifles.  Shepard should have played through every mission sat in a concrete bunker sipping coffee while directing remote drones and airstrikes.  (Personally I'd have loved a game like that, but I can see that I'd have a harder time pitching it than Heroic Space Marine Shoots Problems).

I didn't have an issue with anatomically correct armor for women, afterall, the newest combat body armor offerings in the US military DO come with special shaped armor for women to fit their narrower shoulders and the fact that they sport boobs.  Not a problem.  The thing was they re-rendered Ashely to have a large rack when in previous games she had a more subdued and athletic form (smaller breasts).  They turned her into a Maxim or Playboy model.  Totally unnecessary and nonfunctional (detrimental, in fact, combat/athletics-wise). 

As for armor and the year 2200+...by then ALL armor is likely to provide cloak technology (in ME only infiltrators get it).  Hell, we are close now and there is very active ongoing research to develop it now in the early 21st century.  It would have to be ubiquitous by the end of the 21st, let alone the 22nd or beginning 23rd. 

I'd like as much realism as possible, actually, while still taking advantage of the old Asimov quote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic".  I'd say biotics fits that bill though they chose an unfortunate vehicle for it (an impossible "element zero") and chose SOME expressions of it that don't really square well with me: Reave.  WTF?  You drain the "life force" from someone?  WTF is the "life force"?  ATP?  Glucose? A salt or hydrogen gradient?  They do NOT need to copy the actual "magic" used in sword and sorcery nonsense into a scifi game, they can go quite a ways by sticking with high-tech that is in some way magic-like but skipping actual magic (no talk of "life energy" or "life force" or anything similar - there is no such thing).

[Getorex]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Getorex wrote...

We can't change it but for those who KNOW what they are talking about (service members) it IS jarring and strikes of ridiculous.  The ONLY people in the military I've ever seen "skip" lower ranks and start above the bottom rung of officers is medical officers.  

I've personally seen three men do it.  One was in the dental corps (although not a dentist, just a soldier - he ran a dental unit).  The other two were paratroopers.  In each case they went straight from a senior NCO rank to Captain.

Brit military, yes?  I didn't get the impression at any point in ME that the Alliance was structured on the British military, though I will take you point since it is objective fact.  In the US military, I've only seen rank skipping for medical personnel who are irrelevant as they cannot command combat troops under any circumstance, are barred from combat, and are listed, via Geneva Protocols, as noncombatants.  Their rank is hollow.  I have seen prior enlisted (US mlitary) an all of them started as 2Lts like the rest of us.  That's the US.  I don't know about Russian (I suspect going from enlisted to officer in the Russian military is virtually unheard of - they are VERY rank/class conscious in spite of their old Soviet egalitarian history.  What of France, Germany, etc? 

In any case, I'll go with Alliance using a British system for enlisted to officer BUT that would stick Ash into the Ensign rank, NOT LtCmdr.  She STILL has to serve YEARS as an Ensign (captain in army/marine/air force) rank before hitting the equivalent of Major (LtCmdr).

Modifié par Getorex, 08 mars 2013 - 03:04 .

[DeadPoolX]

WARNING! LONG POST AHEAD!

Possible explanation: Ashley is really a lieutenant, but was made a brevet lieutenant commander.

A brevet rank is when someone is temporarily authorized to hold a higher rank.

A real world example is George Armstrong Custer, famous for "Custer's Last Stand." His real rank was that of lieutenant colonel, but was given the brevet rank of major general. This is why you'll hear or read various sources calling him "General Custer" when he never truly earned flag officer status.

Why is someone given a brevet rank? Well, it's usually because there's a vacancy and the officers who would've normally filled that role are dead or missing. In these situations, the military can temporarily authorize someone to hold a higher rank.

Why would they need a higher rank? It means they can command more troops. To use the US Army as an example, a lieutenant colonel would command a Battalion (300-1,300 troops) whereas a major general would command a Division (10,000-15,000 troops).

This would also allow the brevet-ranked officer to command those who might normally outrank them. The reason this would be important is because the officer who outranks them might not be a line officer (maybe a medical officer, for instance) and therefore shouldn't be saddled with a command post.

As for the "captain of the ship" issue, it's true that in today's modern navies, any officer who's in-command of the ship is referred to as "captain." This officer could be an ensign (although that'd be highly unlikely) and would still be called "captan" if commanding the ship.

The captain of the ship also has almost total authority on the ship (they could be temporarily removed from command if the ship's doctor proclaims them unfit). It doesn't matter what rank someone else is, if they're given permission to board the ship, they are under command of the ship's captain. This is even true for admirals, although I imagine any ship's captain would still watch their tone in this case.

Now I imagine the reason BioWare didn't go into this much detail is because it'd probably confuse a lot of players. I'm not saying anyone is dumb, but at first glance, a lot of military doctrine (including rank names themselves) don't make sense. It's only once you delve deeper do you understand them, but that'd be tedious and unnecessary in the ME series. It's not a military life simulator and even if it was, it takes place in the future, after lots of changes could've happened.

Oh and to the individual who said our ranks will be the same a hundred years from now... well, maybe, but maybe not. Commodore's a navy rank that's gone in and out of fashion quite a few times. Other ranks have disappeared or been added over the years. Some have changed their names, like major general was originally sergeant major general (hence the reason a lieutenant general outranks a major general today, even when a major outranks a lieutenant).

[Knight of Dane]

People has gotten it all wrong.

"Commander Shepard" is actually one rank on its own, and it's teh highest. It's not "Commander" Shepard.

[Reverendtrigster]

I never understood why they promoted Ash & Kaiden so far up the ranks in the first place. I don't think the Spectre's care if their recruits are officers or enlisted, so that couldn't be the justification. If they really wanted Ash to be an officer then 'Lt' should have sufficed, especially since they call her that anyway. Kaiden is a bit trickier since in ME2 he'd already been promoted to LtCMDR.

As for Shepard, in my head I reason that she was promoted to Staff Commander either at the same time as she took command of the Normandy and we just never heard it mentioned, or it was in those few weeks between Sovereign's destruction and the Collector ship attack.

[Zaalbar]

RETCON. Bioware loves retconning stuff.

The writers have probably Retconned their own families at this point.

Ashley was promoted to Operations Chief in ME2 but that got retconned to Lt Commander in ME3.
During the Mars mission Shepard would refer to her as LC for short.

The fact that Shepard refers to her as Lt in the Citadel DLC is either a mistake on the part of the writers or another one of those Bioware retcon the hell out of it moments.