155 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Plaintiff wrote...

The notion of being rewarded for skipping optional content - any sort of optional content - is absurd.

Why are you even framing it in terms of 'reward'? If it's just matching what romances get, wouldn't trading optional content for another form of optional content be equivalent content?

We can also ask why you even have such expectations that make such a thing absurd. If the Citadel DLC can track the characters we use most in order to give a line that only is given to the one we use least, why shouldn't other parts of the game track what we don't do and acknowledge it them?

If I choose to skip a sidequest, then I am knowingly refusing the rewards I would receive from it: extra content, gold, exp and rare items.

Should I be given a bonus for choosing to ignore that sidequest? No, of course not, that would be stupid.

Now, here's the thing: since when are these forms of content equivalent?

Maybe I lack words to put it well, but it seems to me that equating a romance arc with a sidequest is a bit disengenuous. Sidequests in Bioware RPGs, after all, tend to be opportunities for our characters to express themselves with little more forced character investment than 'are you willing to take this quest.'  Romance arcs, on the other hand, are a major roleplaying investment: you're effectively committing your character to that relationship, for whatever reason, even before you make follow-on dialogue choices.

Deciding to look into the case of the magister's murderous son and going on a twenty minute adventure of moral ambiguity and a (not-so big) Big Decision, in other words, is significantly different sort of content when contrasted to flirting with the resident Hot Pants for a special scene.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Plaintiff wrote...
In a story-based game, content is a reward. The whole point of playing is to see more of the story.

Sure, you play the game to see content. But the content you get to see isn't (or shouldn't be) a reward for what you do in the game. The content you see should be the consequence of your actions in the game.

Plaintiff wrote...
If you're deliberately avoiding optional content, why would Bioware give you more optional content? You obviously don't want it.

Or maybe you simply missed it. Or you didn't think doing it would fit your character. Or ...
And why do it? Because it makes the world feel alive. Because it often makes sense.

Plaintiff wrote...

If they implement this suggestion, then why should those who choose romance be excluded from the "friend" content? And what is the reward, or "consequence" if you prefer for people who choose to neither romance nor engage in the extra "friend" content?

Because you can't go drinking with your buddies if you're at home banging your chick. If you don't want to go drinking, you can spend the evening by yourself, of course.

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...

I don't really care about this one way or another, but here's a question:

In DA2, those who had left Nathaniel live in DA:A got a quest involving him. For those who killed him, that quest didn't exist, so BW created another quest to make up for it.

Is what the OP is asking for really that different?

Both scenarios are equally illogical, if that's what you're asking.

There's no reason for that extra quest to not occur if Nathaniel lives. It has nothing to do with him at all.

Likewise, there's no logical reason for the player character to reach "new levels of friendship" with their party memebers if they eschew romance. Why would that happen?

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

The notion of being rewarded for skipping optional content - any sort of optional content - is absurd.

If I choose to skip a sidequest, then I am knowingly refusing the rewards I would receive from it: extra content, gold, exp and rare items.

Should I be given a bonus for choosing to ignore that sidequest? No, of course not, that would be stupid.

Well, actually, yes.  This does happen in DA:O, at least in the epilogue.  You choose not to do the Chantry Dwarf's quest; you don't deal with an exalted march on Orzammar (that being the most memorable).   You don't actually get any gold or experience, but there is consequence.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Plaintiff wrote...
Likewise, there's no logical reason for the player character to reach "new levels of friendship" with their party memebers if they eschew romance. Why would that happen?

I've explained this twice already. If you're not pouring your heart out to your LI, you might pour it out to a friend.

[Plaintiff]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If they implement this suggestion, then why should those who choose romance be excluded from the "friend" content? And what is the reward, or "consequence" if you prefer for people who choose to neither romance nor engage in the extra "friend" content?

Because you can't go drinking with your buddies if you're at home banging your chick. If you don't want to go drinking, you can spend the evening by yourself, of course.

What purpose do the "drinking" cutscene or the "staying at home and reading a book" cutscene serve? They don't develop character, they don't progress the plot, especially not the latter.

You say content should not be considered a reward, but that's exactly what you're asking for. You want extra stuff so that you don't feel like you're "missing out" when you deliberately take choices that you know would lead to less content overall. 

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The notion of being rewarded for skipping optional content - any sort of optional content - is absurd.

If I choose to skip a sidequest, then I am knowingly refusing the rewards I would receive from it: extra content, gold, exp and rare items.

Should I be given a bonus for choosing to ignore that sidequest? No, of course not, that would be stupid.

Well, actually, yes.  This does happen in DA:O, at least in the epilogue.  You choose not to do the Chantry Dwarf's quest; you don't deal with an exalted march on Orzammar (that being the most memorable).   You don't actually get any gold or experience, but there is consequence.

I don't consider anything that happens in epilogue slides to matter at all. In-game or bust.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I don't really care about this one way or another, but here's a question:

In DA2, those who had left Nathaniel live in DA:A got a quest involving him. For those who killed him, that quest didn't exist, so BW created another quest to make up for it.

Is what the OP is asking for really that different?

Both scenarios are equally illogical, if that's what you're asking.

There's no reason for that extra quest to not occur if Nathaniel lives. It has nothing to do with him at all.

Likewise, there's no logical reason for the player character to reach "new levels of friendship" with their party memebers if they eschew romance. Why would that happen?

Oh, believe me, I'm not bringing logic into this.  That would be crazy. 

I'm simply saying, BW added (it seems to me, anyway) an extra sidequest for people who didn't have Nathaniel, so it seems they've already done the "alternative content" thing (even though, of course, DOING the Nathaniel quest, as with romance, is optional in the first place).

In other words, they evened out the issue once, why not do it again?

[RandomSyhn]

A good way to have resolved that empty space after Leandras death would be to have Varric or some other NPC to come to comfort Hawke. He's not romancable but he is supposedly your best friend, or if you friendlier with Aveline she could also come around. I mean everyone suddenly abbandoning a single Hawke does seem a little like rubbing salt in the wound. That particular instance and those like it. *cough*Mass effect *cough* Could have some other more meaningful filler that isn't a Giant finger pointing to your PC going "YOU'RE ALONE!!"

Modifié par RandomSyhn, 15 mars 2013 - 03:50 .

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't consider anything that happens in epilogue slides to matter at all. In-game or bust.

What happens in the epilogue shows us how your story ends.  I'm shocked that a person with a Mass Effect display picture wouldn't appreciate that. 

[Plaintiff]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Likewise, there's no logical reason for the player character to reach "new levels of friendship" with their party memebers if they eschew romance. Why would that happen?

I've explained this twice already. If you're not pouring your heart out to your LI, you might pour it out to a friend.

If you reject people who are trying to get to know you better, you probably don't have any friends.

[TJPags]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't consider anything that happens in epilogue slides to matter at all. In-game or bust.

What happens in the epilogue shows us how your story ends.  I'm shocked that a person with a Mass Effect display picture wouldn't appreciate that. 

Hard to accept that view, since DG himself has said epilogue slides are "rumor and hearsay" . . .which means they may or may not happen.  That's not exactly "how your story ends" if it never happens, is it?

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't consider anything that happens in epilogue slides to matter at all. In-game or bust.

What happens in the epilogue shows us how your story ends.  I'm shocked that a person with a Mass Effect display picture wouldn't appreciate that. 

I came to the series late.

Regardless, the epilogue slides in DA:O are pointless. I don't care what happened to every single individual character I met along the way. I don't need to know who Bann Teagan married, or if random peasant child number three grew up to be a famous adventurer. Anything that is worth knowing should be put in the game so I can actively experience it.

I've only played Mass Effect with the EC installed, so I don't know how it would end otherwise. I do know that I don't need a big speech explaining the state of the universe. The threat I set out to vanquish is vanquished, that's good enough for me. If anything, I'd rather the state of the universe post-ME3 be left a bit more open, so that future games could be written in that setting without requiring the writers to account for three totally different world-states.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 mars 2013 - 02:10 .

[BlueMagitek]

TJPags wrote...

Hard to accept that view, since DG himself has said epilogue slides are "rumor and hearsay" . . .which means they may or may not happen.  That's not exactly "how your story ends" if it never happens, is it?

Ah, but it is the end if you choose to stop at that point in the series.  What comes after doesn't really matter to you if you don't play it.  If I didn't play sequels, the story of my CHARNAME ended with the defeat of _____, regardless of what happened in BG2 and in the novels.

Plaintiff wrote...

I came to the series late.

Regardless,
the epilogue slides in DA:O are pointless. I don't care what happened
to every single individual character I met along the way. I don't need
to know who Bann Teagan married, or if random peasant child number three
grew up to be a famous adventurer.

I've only played Mass Effect
with the EC installed, so I don't know how it would end otherwise. I do
know that I don't need a big speech explaining the state of the
universe. The threat I set out to vanquish is vanquished, that's good
enough for me. If anything, I'd rather the state of the universe
post-ME3 be left a bit more open, so that future games could be written
in that setting without requiring the writers to account for three
totally different world-states.

I'm sorry that you don't care for hearing what effects your actions had on the denizens of the game world.  Please avoid the Fallout series like a plague. 

*cough*

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 09 mars 2013 - 02:12 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Plaintiff wrote...
What purpose do the "drinking" cutscene or the "staying at home and reading a book" cutscene serve? They don't develop character, they don't progress the plot, especially not the latter.

You can't be serious. A drinking night with your companions can't serve any purpose? You're being deliberately ignorant.

Plaintiff wrote...
You say content should not be considered a reward, but that's exactly what you're asking for. You want extra stuff so that you don't feel like you're "missing out" when you deliberately take choices that you know would lead to less content overall.

Do I now? There's so many wrong implications in this...I personally rarely ever do a no-romance playthrough as I like romance quite a lot. I do not make choices based on how much content I think I'll get for making them. It's not about "missing out" on something, as I'll play the game as often as I have to to see all the relevant content (if I like the game, that is). It's about making the game more responsive, about adding replay value.

Also, you still haven't answered my question about why it is unthinkable for a certain quest not being done to trigger a different quest.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 09 mars 2013 - 02:21 .

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
I'm sorry that you don't care for hearing what effects your actions had on the denizens of the game world.  Please avoid the Fallout series like a plague.  

*cough*

I already play Fallout. I did not say that having epilogue slides makes the rest of the game retroactively terrible. Although Fallout 3 is pretty boring for other reasons.

I want the consequences of my actions to have an effect on the story I'm currently playing. Or, if that can't be done, save it for a future installment where I can experience it properly.

[Allan Schumacher]

Wouldn't the opportunity cost of exploring a romance be missing some non-romance specific dialogues and whatnot with said character?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 09 mars 2013 - 03:22 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wouldn't the opportunity cost of exploring a romance be missing some non-romance specific dialogues and whatnot with said character?

If there was an equivalent amount of non-romance specific dialogues and content and whatnot... but how often does that happen? 

I look more to the Mass Effect series as an example of when romance content has narrative segments with no 'just friends' equivlanet: specifically, the romance-support scenes before the Final Battles. Those scenes, and the Normandy locker scene of ME1, are more than just 'relationship' moments, but also, what's the way to put it, calm-before-the-storm reassurances? They're moments when Shepard can express doubt, concern, determination, or resolve for the upcoming challenge. It's a moment of solace in companionship.

If you don't have a romance, though, all you get is a short silent moment that could mean anything for all that it does nothing. That's not particularly character-driving, or character-developing, and I've not really seen a reason why there couldn't be an equivalent solace-in-company scene with the non-romancable squadmates: the proverbial night out with the boys, or so on.

The hypothetical that occurs to me would be a no-LI ME2 scene before the Suicide Mission in which Shepard leaves the empty room and goes towards the kitchen. There you would see the non-romance companions, Mordin and Grunt and Zaeed and Samara and so on, have a rare (sole) moment of comraderie around the table. Maybe they're drinking: maybe they're playing cards: maybe they're swapping stories. Shepard pauses at the corner, with the player given a choice to join in or leave, and if the player joins in you get a different sort of fade-to-black as Shepard gets dealt in and cracks jokes and eases the tension of the upcoming mission.

[Commander Kurt]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wouldn't the opportunity cost of exploring a romance be missing some non-romance specific dialogues and whatnot with said character?

If there was an equivalent amount of non-romance specific dialogues and content and whatnot... but how often does that happen? 

I look more to the Mass Effect series as an example of when romance content has narrative segments with no 'just friends' equivlanet: specifically, the romance-support scenes before the Final Battles. Those scenes, and the Normandy locker scene of ME1, are more than just 'relationship' moments, but also, what's the way to put it, calm-before-the-storm reassurances? They're moments when Shepard can express doubt, concern, determination, or resolve for the upcoming challenge. It's a moment of solace in companionship.

If you don't have a romance, though, all you get is a short silent moment that could mean anything for all that it does nothing. That's not particularly character-driving, or character-developing, and I've not really seen a reason why there couldn't be an equivalent solace-in-company scene with the non-romancable squadmates: the proverbial night out with the boys, or so on.

The hypothetical that occurs to me would be a no-LI ME2 scene before the Suicide Mission in which Shepard leaves the empty room and goes towards the kitchen. There you would see the non-romance companions, Mordin and Grunt and Zaeed and Samara and so on, have a rare (sole) moment of comraderie around the table. Maybe they're drinking: maybe they're playing cards: maybe they're swapping stories. Shepard pauses at the corner, with the player given a choice to join in or leave, and if the player joins in you get a different sort of fade-to-black as Shepard gets dealt in and cracks jokes and eases the tension of the upcoming mission.

Nice post. I was slightly irrate that all my posts were replied to up until the one where I actually presented a valid point. Then suddenly everyone found that elusive "ignore" button.

You certainly could have this, and it would certainly be nice, but can one make the argument that you should have this? If not, well, all the content they could cram in would be welcome but there is no point in just asking for more content.

In the cases you describe, where the romance moment is far more than just content (I can't really think of such a moment in DA though), then I believe that you're right. You should have something for the crazy cat ladies and basement dwellers out there (of which I am one after DA2). 

But can you relate this to DA for me?

[FreakyDarling]

David Gaider wrote...

Again: we have romances as optional content. We also have friendship/rivalry for party members you interact with even if you choose not to romance them. If you don't want to have any romances, that's certainly up to you... but, as I said before, the non-romance content available is the rest of the game. Not using optional content is not a badge of distinction where we give you a cookie for skipping it.

What if I use all the optional content in the game and romance everyone, do I get a cookie then?
...actually, if I did that my character would probably would just get some salve for the burning/itching sensation.

[Arakat]

RandomSyhn wrote...

A good way to have resolved that empty space after Leandras death would be to have Varric or some other NPC to come to comfort Hawke. He's not romancable but he is supposedly your best friend, or if you friendlier with Aveline she could also come around. I mean everyone suddenly abbandoning a single Hawke does seem a little like rubbing salt in the wound. That particular instance and those like it. *cough*Mass effect *cough* Could have some other more meaningful filler that isn't a Giant finger pointing to your PC going "YOUR ALONE!!"

But didn't that happen in the game? If Hawke has not romanced anyone by the time All That Remains is completed, Aveline comes over. Or are you talking about some other scene?

[llandwynwyn]

I don't understand why some are against this, or why Biodevs are behaving like we're asking too much.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wouldn't the opportunity cost of exploring a romance be missing some non-romance specific dialogues and whatnot with said character?

No, because you could hear them when you're romancing another character. What this thread asks is something, just something for single PCs.

[Battlebloodmage]

I don't really mind, but I just don't think it's necessary. Most of the romance scenes happen during the friendship scenes, so it's basically something extra since the lines would be different already for a non-romance companion scene.

[jkflipflopDAO]

I would like to see it go the other way, actually. The hero isn't spending time with anyone else and instead spends that time on training his skills. Hence, if you don't romance anyone you become a stronger character for it.