51 réponses à ce sujet

[Autocrat]

My question is simple. Since the greywardens allow the admission of both sexes and even allows marriage and owning titles and land then what happens when a situation arises when one must choose between duty to the wardens at one hand, and those whom he love at another?

The Nights Watch (The inspiration for the greywardens) deal with this by saying the following oath "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post." 

What is more, there appears to be no penalty for desertion in the Greywardens. Anders the rebel warden was greeted "casually" by another member despite desertion. So whats preventing a criminal from simply passing the joining and then going "bye suckers" and living his next 30 years carefree?

Modifié par Autocrat, 07 mars 2013 - 09:19 .

[Emzamination]

It's heartbreaking but one should always choose duty. If a oath was made to serve the wardens, no matter how much it forces one to lose personally, they must keep it no matter what. Ones word is their honor and bond. Without that, we're no better than the animals.

[Dani Douglas]

Clearly the night watch hasn't met Alistair lol. J.J Seriously that is a bothersome question but I think there is a penalty and when you think about it Anders wasn't doing any harm. In fact he was helping people till the end when he decided he would kill a bunch of people at once. Killed that mofo every time I play the game. and like Anders said in the deep roads, wardens can sense other wardens so I'm sure they would track the person down and kill them if they were doing so much harm.

[Autocrat]

Emzamination wrote...

It's heartbreaking but one should always choose duty. If a oath was made to serve the wardens, no matter how much it forces one to lose personally, they must keep it no matter what. Ones word is their honor and bond. Without that, we're no better than the animals.

But there seems to be no enforcment or anything keeping recruits in line. especially since I assume most of those recruits are former criminals. Desertion is a clear threat and most men are weak at heart, as in the words of maester aemon "only one man in a thousand would choose duty over love".

[Fast Jimmy]

Autocrat wrote...

The Nights Watch (The inspiration for the greywardens) 

Source? I had never heard this before.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Nebulosa 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 mars 2013 - 09:32 .

[TEWR]

First, where did you get that ASoIaF's Nigh****ch was the inspiration for the Grey Wardens? That's the first time I hear it, source please?

Bioware's stated on the record a few times that they based a lot of DA on ASoIaF. I don't think there's an actual source I could link you to in the vein of say a thread or youtube video, but I do recall them saying as much.

The Grey Wardens do seem similar to the Night's Watch, but I'm not certain if they're one of the things ASoIaF influenced.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mars 2013 - 09:36 .

[Autocrat]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

First, where did you get that ASoIaF's Nigh****ch was the inspiration for the Grey Wardens? That's the first time I hear it, source please?

Second, Wynne asks the same question in DA:O, the answer was akin to "we do what we have to", meaning it's up to personal decision unless a senior member of the Order would be giving orders the subordinate Wardens couldn't refuse without breaking away.

Third, Anders and Nathaniel are mostly friends in most playthroughs, unless you sent either one away/to death, in which case the never met and wouldn't know that Anders actually deserted, might just be a local Warden teaming up with someone. And Alistair was never quite big on the whole chain of command thing either and would hardly know about the desertion either.


Plus, I very much doubt Anders would have ever deserted under "our" Wardens governance, so he deserted from his successor, in which case I might think both Nathanial and Alistair might actually feel empathy.



I am quite sure though that the local commander he did desert from was quite livid.

So basically, obeying orders, disobying orders or even just simply saying "F;;; it all" and leaving is a personal decision available for every warden? Is that how you really imagine a military order/paramilitary order is supposed to be run? Like some sort of college fraternity/club?

Modifié par Autocrat, 07 mars 2013 - 09:38 .

[Emzamination]

Autocrat wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

It's heartbreaking but one should always choose duty. If a oath was made to serve the wardens, no matter how much it forces one to lose personally, they must keep it no matter what. Ones word is their honor and bond. Without that, we're no better than the animals.

But there seems to be no enforcment or anything keeping recruits in line. especially since I assume most of those recruits are former criminals. Desertion is a clear threat and most men are weak at heart, as in the words of maester aemon "only one man in a thousand would choose duty over love".

There isn't suppose to be any enforcement. How do you contain some the best warriors in-line? You can't. A warden, like a specter is expected to be self-sufficient and able to guide themselves morally. For example: during the final battle in origins, everything in me wanted to take morrigans offer, stay with leliana and rule as queen. but I choked down my desires, did my duty and sacrificed myself as the wardens demanded. That is the kind of attitude the wardens expect of recruits.

[Dominari]

Autocrat wrote...

So basically, obeying orders, disobying orders or even just simply saying "F;;; it all" and leaving is a personal decision available for every warden? Is that how you really imagine a military order/paramilitary order is supposed to be run? Like some sort of college fraternity/club?

Once you step back and realise that the wardens are not a real order and only a plot device, it makes perfect sense.  The wardens will act as they need to act for the story at that moment.

Modifié par Dominari, 07 mars 2013 - 09:49 .

[Autocrat]

Dominari wrote...

Emzamination wrote...


There isn't suppose to be any enforcement. How do you contain some the best warriors in-line? You can't. A warden, like a specter is expected to be self-sufficient and able to guide themselves morally. For example: during the final battle in origins, everything in me wanted to take morrigans offer, stay with leliana and rule as queen. but I choked down my desires, did my duty and sacrificed myself as the wardens demanded. That is the kind of attitude the wardens expect of recruits.

Once you step back and realise that the wardens are not a real order and only a plot device, it makes perfect sense.  The wardens will act as they need to act for the story at that moment.

It seems to me this is one of things that bioware didn't give much thought into. They wanted to create a version of the Night watch that was basically "happier, merrier and caters to everyone desires" without really putting much thought on the after effect or how to maintain its cohesion in line. Much like  other things in dragon age, the basic foundational logistics simply doesn't make sense.

[Wulfram]

You're not allowed to own titles and lands AFAIK. Unless you can say "screw the rules, I killed an archdemon", anyway, which isn't exactly common.

Marriage doesn't appear to stop people from doing their duty in our world.

[Autocrat]

Conflicts can arise between something sentimental to ones self (like marriage) and his duty.

Modifié par Autocrat, 07 mars 2013 - 10:00 .

[Face of Evil]

Autocrat wrote...

What is more, there appears to be no penalty for desertion in the Greywardens. Anders the rebel warden was greeted "casually" by another member despite desertion. So whats preventing a criminal from simply passing the joining and then going "bye suckers" and living his next 30 years carefree?

1) Running will not let you escape the nightmares that plague your every night.
2) Running will not make you free of the darkspawn, who can sense the Wardens and track them down.
3) Running will not let you start a family, due to the Wardens' reduced fertility.

And even if you didn't care about those things, Riordan himself points out that a Grey Warden who ran away would eventually be forced to enter the Deep Roads due to the Calling. At that point, your options would be to a) go down fighting the darkspawn or become a ghoul, which is a fate worse than death. They don't call it "the duty that cannot be forsworn" for nothing.

Also, the fact that Anders was not hunted down by the organization doesn't mean they turn a blind eye to deserters. He did expect them to do so, after all. But he was an abomination, and they didn't want him anymore.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 07 mars 2013 - 10:15 .

[-TC1989-]

Autocrat wrote...

My question is simple. Since the greywardens allow the admission of both sexes and even allows marriage and owning titles and land then what happens when a situation arises when one must choose between duty to the wardens at one hand, and those whom he love at another?

The Nights Watch (The inspiration for the greywardens) deal with this by saying the following oath "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post." 

What is more, there appears to be no penalty for desertion in the Greywardens. Anders the rebel warden was greeted "casually" by another member despite desertion. So whats preventing a criminal from simply passing the joining and then going "bye suckers" and living his next 30 years carefree?

They do have some similarities when you view them both, but their actually quite different. The Rangers have to stay on the Wall unless they are given specific instructions to leave and settle a situation. The Wardens are free (if they choose) to branch out and explore their own path. And really there isn't anything stopping them from joining the Wardens, and  then yelling "SEE YA". All they have to do is pass the joining ritual, and I believe they wouldn't be held nearly as strictly to do their duty like the rangers do. Of course I guess the joke would be on the criminal too, having to deal with all those nightmares, and being a target for darkspawn occasionally.

Another thing too I guess I just realized  is that both factions arent really respected. Wardens are praised and loved when they fight darkspawn, and then pretty much looked down upon any other time. The Rangers are looked at as basically incest, disgusting wastes of life that are clinging to their last shred of dignity, freezing their hide on a huge wall, sadly...

[Melima]

Bah, I disagree that the marriage part interferes with anything, soldiers in all countries are in marriages, and they still do their duty -- very well, and thank you for your service and sacrifice to the soldiers and your families.

Regarding Grey Wardens, their seems to be great leniency, as long as you do your duty when you're needed, as in during a Blight. Leaving Anders aside for the moment, I am thinking of Riordan with Alistair. Riordan was there the entire time with the question of Alistair being King of Ferelden, and seemed to have no qualms. Maybe we'll get to learn more about their 'duty' obligations as we move through Thedas. I'd be interested.

Grey Wardens are often forced into service, and they pay a heavy price for going through that particular type of darkspawn blood magic in the Ritual. I would think once you've served against the Blight and felled an archdemon, you might be given some leeway. Anders sure fell right in line and served down in the nasty places where the Brood Mothers, 'The Mother' and 'The Architect' were causing great havoc. Good Topic, Autocrat! *thumbs up*

[-TC1989-]

Melima wrote...

Bah, I disagree that the marriage part interferes with anything, soldiers in all countries are in marriages, and they still do their duty -- very well, and thank you for your service and sacrifice to the soldiers and your families.

Regarding Grey Wardens, their seems to be great leniency, as long as you do your duty when you're needed, as in during a Blight. Leaving Anders aside for the moment, I am thinking of Riordan with Alistair. Riordan was there the entire time with the question of Alistair being King of Ferelden, and seemed to have no qualms. Maybe we'll get to learn more about their 'duty' obligations as we move through Thedas. I'd be interested.

Grey Wardens are often forced into service, and they pay a heavy price for going through that particular type of darkspawn blood magic in the Ritual. I would think once you've served against the Blight and felled an archdemon, you might be given some leeway. Anders sure fell right in line and served down in the nasty places where the Brood Mothers, 'The Mother' and 'The Architect' were causing great havoc. Good Topic, Autocrat! *thumbs up*

I completely agree with the marriage aspect. Just because you have an important job, I highly doubt loving someone will damn the mission or something. I know where their coming from, about having to make the choice in the crucial moments, but at the cost of never enjoying love with another?

Reminds me of the whole Jedi, and emotion falling to the dark side. I never thought that was right. If anything I always believed loving someone made you happy, giving you greater confidence, and more willing to embrace life and all its surroundings. But that's just my opinion...

[Melima]

Exactly, TC1989, the Jedi 'there is no passion' is an error imho.

[DragonMage95]

Melima wrote...

Exactly, TC1989, the Jedi 'there is no passion' is an error imho.

Good thing Luke changed that.

[Neon Rising Winter]

That sounds more like a clerical celibacy/poverty thing than a military thing, and I don't think the Grey Wardens are exactly a religious order. I don't really see them being desperate to try and prevent members or their families inheriting the organisations property or wealth either, which is a more realistic motive for that kind of prohibition.

Speaking historically, rather than fantasy doorstop wise, are there examples of military organisations enforcing this idea without some religious element influencing it?

[Face of Evil]

There's no religious restriction on Grey Wardens marrying, it's just discouraged for ethical reasons. Even if they survive the Joining, the life of a Grey Warden is nasty, brutish and short. 

Unless they die from other causes, their careers always end the same way: a horrid, violent death at the hands of darkspawn. Granted, we all die, but we don't all meet the Maker by being torn apart by monsters.

Not the best recipe for a happy marriage, there.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 07 mars 2013 - 11:46 .

[-TC1989-]

Face of Evil wrote...

There's no religious restriction on Grey Wardens marrying, it's just discouraged for ethical reasons. Even if they survive the Joining, the life of a Grey Warden is nasty, brutish and short. 

Unless they die from other causes, their careers always end the same way: a horrid, violent death at the hands of darkspawn. Granted, we all die, but we don't all meet the Maker by being torn apart by monsters.

Not the best recipe for a happy marriage, there.

I agree it's not. But I couldn't tell anyone that just because they live a hard life, that they shouldn't try to scrap out a normal existance. I mean I can understand why Anders wanted to get away from it all, I couldn't imagine being hounded by Templars, and then the fact with being a Warden.