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[ThePhoenixKing]

-TC1989- wrote...

Autocrat wrote...

My question is simple. Since the greywardens allow the admission of both sexes and even allows marriage and owning titles and land then what happens when a situation arises when one must choose between duty to the wardens at one hand, and those whom he love at another?

The Nights Watch (The inspiration for the greywardens) deal with this by saying the following oath "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post." 

What is more, there appears to be no penalty for desertion in the Greywardens. Anders the rebel warden was greeted "casually" by another member despite desertion. So whats preventing a criminal from simply passing the joining and then going "bye suckers" and living his next 30 years carefree?

They do have some similarities when you view them both, but their actually quite different. The Rangers have to stay on the Wall unless they are given specific instructions to leave and settle a situation. The Wardens are free (if they choose) to branch out and explore their own path. And really there isn't anything stopping them from joining the Wardens, and  then yelling "SEE YA". All they have to do is pass the joining ritual, and I believe they wouldn't be held nearly as strictly to do their duty like the rangers do. Of course I guess the joke would be on the criminal too, having to deal with all those nightmares, and being a target for darkspawn occasionally.

Another thing too I guess I just realized  is that both factions arent really respected. Wardens are praised and loved when they fight darkspawn, and then pretty much looked down upon any other time. The Rangers are looked at as basically incest, disgusting wastes of life that are clinging to their last shred of dignity, freezing their hide on a huge wall, sadly...

Very well said. One of the things that always bugs me about the comparision between the Night's Watch and the Wardens is the assumption that "being inspired by" equates to "utterly identical". The Wardens are significantly different from the Watch, partly due to the fact that while the Watch only faces a threat in one direction most of the time, the Wardens have to be prepared for the darkspawn to strike literally anywhere. I also don't think it's fair to judge the entirety of the Wardens by Anders' example as well; the grand majority of Wardens aren't mad terrorist $&@#.

Going back to the question posed by the OP, everything that we've seen in the games suggest that the Wardens don't really have a problem either with fraternization within the ranks, or with maintaining an established romantic relationship outside of the Order. Jory, Kristoff and Keegan all had wives (the latter two while they were still on active duty), and I didn't seem to recall anything about my Warden getting an angry letter from Weisshaupt about having a relationship with Leliana during the Blight. One gets the impression that the Wardens aren't really interested in micromanaging the personal lives; as long as they can fight the darkspawn, that's all that matters. Lots of people in the military today have spouses and families, and while it is a trial for them to be seperated while on active duty, they endure and deal with it. Why should the Wardens be any different?

[-TC1989-]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Autocrat wrote...

My question is simple. Since the greywardens allow the admission of both sexes and even allows marriage and owning titles and land then what happens when a situation arises when one must choose between duty to the wardens at one hand, and those whom he love at another?

The Nights Watch (The inspiration for the greywardens) deal with this by saying the following oath "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post." 

What is more, there appears to be no penalty for desertion in the Greywardens. Anders the rebel warden was greeted "casually" by another member despite desertion. So whats preventing a criminal from simply passing the joining and then going "bye suckers" and living his next 30 years carefree?

They do have some similarities when you view them both, but their actually quite different. The Rangers have to stay on the Wall unless they are given specific instructions to leave and settle a situation. The Wardens are free (if they choose) to branch out and explore their own path. And really there isn't anything stopping them from joining the Wardens, and  then yelling "SEE YA". All they have to do is pass the joining ritual, and I believe they wouldn't be held nearly as strictly to do their duty like the rangers do. Of course I guess the joke would be on the criminal too, having to deal with all those nightmares, and being a target for darkspawn occasionally.

Another thing too I guess I just realized  is that both factions arent really respected. Wardens are praised and loved when they fight darkspawn, and then pretty much looked down upon any other time. The Rangers are looked at as basically incest, disgusting wastes of life that are clinging to their last shred of dignity, freezing their hide on a huge wall, sadly...

Very well said. One of the things that always bugs me about the comparision between the Night's Watch and the Wardens is the assumption that "being inspired by" equates to "utterly identical". The Wardens are significantly different from the Watch, partly due to the fact that while the Watch only faces a threat in one direction most of the time, the Wardens have to be prepared for the darkspawn to strike literally anywhere. I also don't think it's fair to judge the entirety of the Wardens by Anders' example as well; the grand majority of Wardens aren't mad terrorist $&@#.

Going back to the question posed by the OP, everything that we've seen in the games suggest that the Wardens don't really have a problem either with fraternization within the ranks, or with maintaining an established romantic relationship outside of the Order. Jory, Kristoff and Keegan all had wives (the latter two while they were still on active duty), and I didn't seem to recall anything about my Warden getting an angry letter from Weisshaupt about having a relationship with Leliana during the Blight. One gets the impression that the Wardens aren't really interested in micromanaging the personal lives; as long as they can fight the darkspawn, that's all that matters. Lots of people in the military today have spouses and families, and while it is a trial for them to be seperated while on active duty, they endure and deal with it. Why should the Wardens be any different?

Exactly, you finished the rest of my thought. I would never say that either faction is an easy life by any means. But having to choose... definately Warden. I mean hell my Warden became the freaking Prince Consort of Ferelden lol

[Melima]

Um,...just fyi @FaceofEvil... the death you describe for Grey Wardens -- 'the Calling', as it is known -- is not exactly what you said (if you do more investigating), though we are led (and the Grey Wardens are led) to believe it. Sometimes, in fact, they lose the taint altogether, and sometimes (at least) they lose what they looked like once, and so stay below, but their mind is in tact. We have more to learn on this subject, and I hope that we do.

[Yrkoon]

Autocrat wrote...


What is more, there appears to be no penalty for desertion in the Greywardens.

Ser Jory would beg to differ.


 

Anders the rebel warden was greeted "casually" by another member despite desertion. So whats preventing a criminal from simply passing the joining and then going "bye suckers" and living his next 30 years carefree?

Did Anders  desert? In my copy of DA2 he was still a warden.   He even performed the joining on one of Hawke's siblings.

More to the point...  You kinda *can't* leave the wardens once you join, since it becomes  biological.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 mars 2013 - 12:42 .

[kkireth]

The writers have said that being fans of fantasy they have taken inspiration from several fantasy series while writing dragon age including ASoIaF, wheel of time, and several others.

As for why there is no punishment for deserting or ban against attachments that is explained by Alistair in the beginning of dragon age that because they are tainted in the end they all will end up in the deeps fighting the darkspawn, so it doesn't really matter

[Face of Evil]

Melima wrote...

Um,...just fyi @FaceofEvil... the death you describe for Grey Wardens -- 'the Calling', as it is known -- is not exactly what you said (if you do more investigating), though we are led (and the Grey Wardens are led) to believe it. Sometimes, in fact, they lose the taint altogether, and sometimes (at least) they lose what they looked like once, and so stay below, but their mind is in tact. We have more to learn on this subject, and I hope that we do.

There is exactly one case of a Warden being cured of the taint — Fiona — and that was due to the Architect's magic. That same magic also nearly killed her, and it's possible that she was cured by a fluke side effect.

If you're referring to Larius, he became a ghoul. That's what's in store for the Grey Wardens who don't commit Suicide by Darkspawn.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 08 mars 2013 - 03:18 .

[Melima]

Yes, a ghoul. Fiona's cure wasn't clear. It may have had something to do with the Architect, OR the Circle of Magi brooch she was wearing, OR the dagger Duncan was carrying, OR the fact that she was pregnant by King Maric. It may or may not be the only case, but it is the only case we know of so far.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Depends really in the case of The Warden killing the Archdemon in Origins they had the option of avoiding death by performing the Ritual with Morrigan,you live,the Archdemon dies,everyone wins.But if such an option like this is out of ones reach then there is no choice...one must pick duty.

[Silfren]

Melima wrote...

Yes, a ghoul. Fiona's cure wasn't clear. It may have had something to do with the Architect, OR the Circle of Magi brooch she was wearing, OR the dagger Duncan was carrying, OR the fact that she was pregnant by King Maric. It may or may not be the only case, but it is the only case we know of so far.

Eh, I'm pretty sure her being pregnant didn't have anything to do with it.  =P

[Silfren]

Yrkoon wrote...

Autocrat wrote...


What is more, there appears to be no penalty for desertion in the Greywardens.

Ser Jory would beg to differ.


 

Anders the rebel warden was greeted "casually" by another member despite desertion. So whats preventing a criminal from simply passing the joining and then going "bye suckers" and living his next 30 years carefree?

Did Anders  desert? In my copy of DA2 he was still a warden.   He even performed the joining on one of Hawke's siblings.

More to the point...  You kinda *can't* leave the wardens once you join, since it becomes  biological.

Depends on how you define it.  The taint itself never goes away (rare, circumstance-specific exceptions notwithstanding), but being an official member is something else again.  Anders considered himself no longer a part of the Order.  And he didn't perform the Joining on anyone; rather, he led Hawke to a group of Wardens who took her sibling away to have it performed.

[Face of Evil]

Melima wrote...

Yes, a ghoul. Fiona's cure wasn't clear. It may have had something to do with the Architect, OR the Circle of Magi brooch she was wearing, OR the dagger Duncan was carrying,)

The brooch channeled the Architect's magic and the dagger protected against it.

It was a fluke. That's it. An unexpected side effect of the Archiitect's magic being disrupted.

[Silfren]

Autocrat wrote...

Anders the rebel warden was greeted "casually" by another member despite desertion. So whats preventing a criminal from simply passing the joining and then going "bye suckers" and living his next 30 years carefree?

Eh, not really.  That exchange isn't casual at all, and I always thought it strongly implied that Stroud had a part in Anders leaving the Grey Wardens, like agreeing to look the other way, probably.  I seem to recall that there's a bit of dialogue from Stroud telling Anders that they're "done," suggesting that they had a deal of some sort that Stroud now considers to be null and void.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, there's another option for Grey Wardens, though only Avernus has pulled it off thus far: blood magic, skillfully applied, can slow down the taint's spread to a truly negligible rate. Without also extending your lifespan with blood magic at the same time, a Grey Warden using this method could easily die of old age long before the Calling came around.

[Melima]

Melima wrote...

Yes, a ghoul. Fiona's cure wasn't clear. It may have had something to do with the Architect, OR the Circle of Magi brooch she was wearing, OR the dagger Duncan was carrying,)

Face of Evil wrote: "The brooch channeled the Architect's magic and the dagger protected against it. It was a fluke. That's it. An unexpected side effect of the Archiitect's magic being disrupted."

Silfren wrote:  "Eh, I'm pretty sure her being pregnant didn't have anything to do with it."  =P

These are our opinions, and we're entitled to make them, but the books are not clear, and Fiona would not have been taken back to Weisshaupt for observation and study if they all knew for a fact how to stop the corruption of tainted blood. I believe they would have put the cure into practice if they had figured it out, don't you? Personally, the first time I heard about King's blood -- like King Maric's blood, for example -- having any 'special' powers, I thought, "Nah", but now that I've read the dropped hints, it may mean something in the Dragon Age world. Flemeth apparently used the Theirin blood, Yavana (Flemeth's other daughter) wanted Alistair's Theirin blood to complete 'the bargain', but Alistair killed her instead. Something was said about 'the blood of dragons' being in the Theirin bloodline -- whatever that means. All I'm saying by all this is that we don't know for sure! It may be a combination of things that 'cured' Fiona's tainted blood, but I hope we find out the answer. Since I am of the belief that Fiona's and King Maric's son IS Alistair, then all of this is more intriguing as far as Alistair's future. Grey Warden information has always been interesting, and I'm still curious as to what more we may learn.

Modifié par Melima, 08 mars 2013 - 12:25 .

[Uccio]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, there's another option for Grey Wardens, though only Avernus has pulled it off thus far: blood magic, skillfully applied, can slow down the taint's spread to a truly negligible rate. Without also extending your lifespan with blood magic at the same time, a Grey Warden using this method could easily die of old age long before the Calling came around.

Aparently Avernus had lived several generations and if your Warden drank his research results (like mine did) then we can safely say that Warden has little fear of dying during next couple of hundred years.

Modifié par Ukki, 08 mars 2013 - 01:34 .

[-TC1989-]

Melima wrote...

Melima wrote...

Yes, a ghoul. Fiona's cure wasn't clear. It may have had something to do with the Architect, OR the Circle of Magi brooch she was wearing, OR the dagger Duncan was carrying,)

Face of Evil wrote: "The brooch channeled the Architect's magic and the dagger protected against it. It was a fluke. That's it. An unexpected side effect of the Archiitect's magic being disrupted."

Silfren wrote:  "Eh, I'm pretty sure her being pregnant didn't have anything to do with it."  =P

These are our opinions, and we're entitled to make them, but the books are not clear, and Fiona would not have been taken back to Weisshaupt for observation and study if they all knew for a fact how to stop the corruption of tainted blood. I believe they would have put the cure into practice if they had figured it out, don't you? Personally, the first time I heard about King's blood -- like King Maric's blood, for example -- having any 'special' powers, I thought, "Nah", but now that I've read the dropped hints, it may mean something in the Dragon Age world. Flemeth apparently used the Theirin blood, Yavana (Flemeth's other daughter) wanted Alistair's Theirin blood to complete 'the bargain', but Alistair killed her instead. Something was said about 'the blood of dragons' being in the Theirin bloodline -- whatever that means. All I'm saying by all this is that we don't know for sure! It may be a combination of things that 'cured' Fiona's tainted blood, but I hope we find out the answer. Since I am of the belief that Fiona's and King Maric's son IS Alistair, then all of this is more intriguing as far as Alistair's future. Grey Warden information has always been interesting, and I'm still curious as to what more we may learn.

Hmm.. assuming you are correct about the pregnancy thing killing the taint in Fiona. So what do you think would happen if your Warden was a noble female, and ruled with Alistair? Hell, she wouldn't even have to rule with him, just be his love interest. Do you think in that case that maybe... the Wardens taint could be killed as well? Interesting...

[JoltDealer]

If I had to guess, they allow grey wardens to marry and own land in order to keep in touch with a more human aspect. Not sure how the taint works, but if it's slowly consuming you, I think it's a good idea to hold on to the humanity you have left.

[Melima]

-TC1989- wrote...

Melima wrote...

Melima wrote...

Yes, a ghoul. Fiona's cure wasn't clear. It may have had something to do with the Architect, OR the Circle of Magi brooch she was wearing, OR the dagger Duncan was carrying,)

Face of Evil wrote: "The brooch channeled the Architect's magic and the dagger protected against it. It was a fluke. That's it. An unexpected side effect of the Archiitect's magic being disrupted."

Silfren wrote:  "Eh, I'm pretty sure her being pregnant didn't have anything to do with it."  =P

These are our opinions, and we're entitled to make them, but the books are not clear, and Fiona would not have been taken back to Weisshaupt for observation and study if they all knew for a fact how to stop the corruption of tainted blood. I believe they would have put the cure into practice if they had figured it out, don't you? Personally, the first time I heard about King's blood -- like King Maric's blood, for example -- having any 'special' powers, I thought, "Nah", but now that I've read the dropped hints, it may mean something in the Dragon Age world. Flemeth apparently used the Theirin blood, Yavana (Flemeth's other daughter) wanted Alistair's Theirin blood to complete 'the bargain', but Alistair killed her instead. Something was said about 'the blood of dragons' being in the Theirin bloodline -- whatever that means. All I'm saying by all this is that we don't know for sure! It may be a combination of things that 'cured' Fiona's tainted blood, but I hope we find out the answer. Since I am of the belief that Fiona's and King Maric's son IS Alistair, then all of this is more intriguing as far as Alistair's future. Grey Warden information has always been interesting, and I'm still curious as to what more we may learn.

Hmm.. assuming you are correct about the pregnancy thing killing the taint in Fiona. So what do you think would happen if your Warden was a noble female, and ruled with Alistair? Hell, she wouldn't even have to rule with him, just be his love interest. Do you think in that case that maybe... the Wardens taint could be killed as well? Interesting...

That is interesting! Not that I am saying it was Fiona's pregnancy, only that her pregnancy may be involved; again, we don't know. Of course, the Architect is trying to cure everyone, even the heavily tainted darkspawn, even the sleeping archdemons, he says, trying to prevent a Blight -- which accidentally caused the last one, he says. He's been using Grey Warden blood. It can give you a headache. lol... I want to play Dragon Age 3!!

[Solmanian]

Hmm, last I checked grey warden can't own property or have children after their initiation. It was a big part of HN origin, since he might've been the last of the couslends. When someone says "my father was a warden" it usually means he ahd a family before joining the wardens like loghain or jory. As for romances? It's in the air,since different branches of the wardens have different policies so it's anybody guess. In ancient times there were armies that encouraged homosexuality because they believed the soldiers will fight harder for the ones they love. Than again, one just needs at DA:O love triangles/octagon to see why office romance is a bad idea...

[Urazz]

Solmanian wrote...

Hmm, last I checked grey warden can't own property or have children after their initiation. It was a big part of HN origin, since he might've been the last of the couslends. When someone says "my father was a warden" it usually means he ahd a family before joining the wardens like loghain or jory. As for romances? It's in the air,since different branches of the wardens have different policies so it's anybody guess. In ancient times there were armies that encouraged homosexuality because they believed the soldiers will fight harder for the ones they love. Than again, one just needs at DA:O love triangles/octagon to see why office romance is a bad idea...

It was never said they couldn't have children.  It was own property or have a title in government.  There was nothing said that Warden's can't marry and have children.

The only thing related to children with Grey Wardens is that they have a reduced fertility rate and thus have a harder time having children with non-Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Urazz, 09 mars 2013 - 02:00 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

The gap between Blights seems so long, sometimes centuries at a time. Unless the Wardens live in monastic cloister-like strongholds (I am guessing the Grey Wardens in the Anderfels probably do), they're mostly a reserve militia bound by an oath in the event that a Blight does occur. I don't see the GWs as the same sort of organization as the Jedi Knights in the Star Wars universe, where the Jedi serve a very general function in that they are "guardians of peace and justice". The purpose of the Grey Wardens is very specific and guarding peace and justice is not one of them. They have more in common with the Night's Watch in A Song of Ice and Fire, except for the males-only rule of the Watch.

I'm not sure how actively the Wardens frown upon fraternization among their ranks or whether they are barred from openly pursuing romantic relationships. "In war, victory. In peace, vigilance." There's an awful lot of vigilance in the life of a Warden, I reckon. I figure duty is much more important in times of war.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what future installments, novels, comics, and tabletop role-playing modules reveal about the Grey Wardens.

[hazarkazra]

Also keep in mind that it already takes determination to get to the Joining. It requires a phase as initiate where your resolve is tested and then ultimately the Joining itself. We already saw in Origins that should you refuse to undertake it they stab you, so any of the 'doubters' will at that point be 'eliminated'. I can also imagine that the Wardens have little to gain by forcing people to stay in service. They need their Wardens determined and focused. A doubter will do more damage by staying within the Order then by leaving.

I also think that for most it's a 'where else are you suppose to go?' thing. Most have burned their bridges by the time they join the Wardens. Finally I think it could differ between local Orders. I can imagine the Weishaupt Wardens being far more likely to execute deserters then the Ferelden Order, for example.

Modifié par hazarkazra, 09 mars 2013 - 05:09 .

[Henioo]

It is quite interesting.

Kristoff was married, and he asked Lieutenant Gable (he was under his command) for a permission to come home, assumingly to his wife in Orlais.

I think it's like with the real-world army. You go through the Joining - you get recruited. You spend a while killing darkspawn - you get soldier training. Then you leave and are alowed to carry a normal life, but if there is a war (Blight) you put your armour on and kill darkspawn. Now, some may wish to stay in the military, as do some Wardens.

After all, The Warden may become an advisor in the court of the King or Queen, a Bann even. It's not like The Warden has to go to the Deep Roads immediately after the end of Blight.

[WardenWade]

Henioo wrote...

It is quite interesting.

Kristoff was married, and he asked Lieutenant Gable (he was under his command) for a permission to come home, assumingly to his wife in Orlais.

I think it's like with the real-world army. You go through the Joining - you get recruited. You spend a while killing darkspawn - you get soldier training. Then you leave and are alowed to carry a normal life, but if there is a war (Blight) you put your armour on and kill darkspawn. Now, some may wish to stay in the military, as do some Wardens.

After all, The Warden may become an advisor in the court of the King or Queen, a Bann even. It's not like The Warden has to go to the Deep Roads immediately after the end of Blight.

Agreed, Henioo.  We see some of both sides of this dilemma in Dragon Age...Wardens like Keenan who give all the order, to the point of ignoring their loved ones (though still being married), and Wardens like Polara who have or keep their children even as Warden-Commander.  It's individual, maybe?

I like to think, at least with my Warden, that loving and having friends, love and family ties could be a strength rather than the weakness Wynne initially suggests in conversation.  Maybe instead of flinching at the critical moment, a Warden with someone to care about would fight that much harder, picturing what would happen to friends, family and lover if they failed?  It might offer that extra bit of strength needed to win the battle, or the war, without having to turn one's heart into a desert.

Modifié par WardenWade, 09 mars 2013 - 11:47 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

Aparently Avernus had lived several generations and if your Warden drank his research results (like mine did) then we can safely say that Warden has little fear of dying during next couple of hundred years.

We can't safely say anything of the sort. All we know is that the warden drank an experimental potion that gave him/her one or two quasi-blood magic abilities. Mine did it in the hope of ridding himself of the taint or at least elongating his shortened lifespan but we have no indication that that's what it actually does and we have no clue as to the exact methodology Avernus used to extend his life.

I suspect used some form of human sacrifice but I have no evidence to substantiate that. However, if the devs intended to use drinking the potion as a plot point to make your warden live a normal lifespan, let alone hundreds of years, they would have made that clear, or at least hinted at it.