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[Sabariel]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Sugarjaye wrote...

samb wrote...

Xeyska wrote...

samb wrote...

 I have no idea what you guys are talking about. How do I get to make James uncomfortable?  I must know. 

This is what everyone is talking about.

It's practically sexual harassment.

Thanks for that. That wasn't even an option for me, I guess being committed to Liara negates that right?  Does FemShep need to be completely single for this to happen?

That clip actually emphasized what I always believed about FemShep; she needs to be direct because her status intimidates men. In all other romances she has been the aggressor. I don't see her acting out of character here. 

I don't like it, but not because of any moral reasons. I know they made it one night stand because they didn't want to add more content acknowledging the new relationship.  It reeks of cost cutting. 

I have no problem with Femshep being aggressive in going after what she wants.   
What I, am i'm sure most people have a prolem with is the whole plying James with drink in order to sleep with you thing.  It just feels so sleezy and wrong.

I have an honest question for you....if he KEEPS telling you NO, why do you keep trying?  At this point wouldn't a woman who has been turned down HAVE to up the ante to get that same guy to say yes?  The game plays out like real life would under those exact same circumstances.

Pretty sure the only reason most people continued on is because they wanted to see how things played out. It could have gone a thousand different ways, but ended up going in one of the worst directions.

[Zagardal]

Re-post from a different discussion. I guess it can sum up both sides of the argument:

Zagardal wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

It does start to feel like that. If this were swapped, there's no way it would get into the game at all.

Imagine it with ManShep and Ashley instead. She says no to him initially. He approaches her later, sits close, asks her how he can turn that no into a yes. That alone is pressuring. She says she'd have to be really drunk.
He continues to push, the implication reads, "Get to drinking, then."

At the end of the night, he asks her if she's drunk enough, then adds, "By which I mean, are you done?" as if to say, "I'm running out of patience. This is happening, get your ass in bed." She stutters, still struggling not to think of him as the Commander, his authority a shadow over the proceedings.

After the sex, she says she enjoys it... then hesitates with an, "I think". Obviously her reservations from before were never changed, they were just overcome by Shepard's pushing her. She then asks him not to tell anyone. He says, "Fine, if you make me some eggs," as the cherry on top of his offensive pursuit of his own selfish needs.

Ashley may be a strong woman, but this person is her superior officer and she respects him. He's abusing that respect to get into her pants.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I've never played Renegade Shepard, but I always assumed that although s/he would kill to suit his/her mission, I don't think the writers intended to portray that s/he's actually supposed to get his/her kicks from being pure evil.

Here we go...

James states more than once that the problem is that shepard is his superior. Hell, she's Commander Shepard, hero of the citadel, most people would be intimidated. Then, during the party he states he doesn't have a problem
"seeing her as a woman". After that he says that "It'd take quite a few drinks and one of those once in a lifetime nights" to get past the fact she's his superior; if he had ended the phrase right after the drinking part, that might have worked as a second and firm negative (and actually a little offensive if it had been uttered in a different tone, if you think of it), but then goes ahead and says something that obviously implies he's actually considering it, plain and simple. Then he says "I'm clearly tempted" and proceeds to ask you for feedback on which is the best course of action. Later, Cortez mentions how James
seems conflicted (in a good way) about the whole deal. Finally, Shep goes and asks "almost done?" which is a bit aggresive, I can admit that, but she's just asking whether or not the liquid courage was working (which is what James said he needed in the first place), I honestly don't see it as a subtle "this is happening, deal with it".

Cut to the next morning. James is the one to initiate dialog by saying "Wow, that was...", which by itself (just going by word selection, tone and short laugh at the end) just means he had a good time. Shep completes the thought by saying "fun? crazy? wild?", to which he replies "Definitely... I think" which is not a commentary on his reservations as you mentioned but on the fact that they were drunk last night, so some things might have been a blur. And that "make me eggs" thing is just a character reference to the huevos rancheros (which are actually quite
tasty), don't give it more thought than that; it could have been "calibrate my tv screen" or "set up the chess board" or any other reference depending on who ends up with you in bed.

I can see why people expecting a romance with James might have felt disappointed, but to call this harassment is at the most, debatable, and to call is date-rape (as some have) is just plain hyperbole; he didn't adopt fetal position, ****** his pants, throw up on the floor or anything like that, he was well enough to dance and talk fluently. To me this just was evidence of how men (specially flirty ones) can be intimidated by strong and forward women.

Modifié par Zagardal, 12 mars 2013 - 06:11 .

[Vexille]

poor fem shep, being bashed for nothing more then showing the same determination to get in James's pants as she showed to stop the reapers

[Calamity]

A one night stand with Vega would have been fine, but not the way they did it. A lot of single adults (and some married)have one night stands that aren't copied from a date rape video but are mutually decided upon.

[Calamity]

wetnasty wrote...

 I think its so crappy the way Bioware does Femshep. :| Male shep gets so many options, women (and men) are falling over themselves to hook up with him, but Femshep is given like 3 options that will actually even end up anywhere. The other options you have end in dead ends or dead boyfriends. 

Jacob cheats on you, James screws you once and then doesn't want you, Thane dies... I'm surprised they didn't give Garrus amnesia in some "caclibrating" accident. Even the ones that both male and female shep can romance are given the boot, (Morinth: Gone, Kelly: Gone, Samara: Doesn't want you) it's crazy. Maleshep has 7 or 8 options that all end up well compared to Femshep's 4. 

WHY CAN'T THEY JUST LET FEMSHEP BE GREAT.

Oh and as a femshep get tali drunk at the party. She says something about Garrus wanting a threesome... so ya that almost destroyed my perfect Garrus romance... 

[Sugarjaye]

Sabariel wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Sugarjaye wrote...

samb wrote...

Xeyska wrote...

samb wrote...

 I have no idea what you guys are talking about. How do I get to make James uncomfortable?  I must know. 

This is what everyone is talking about.

It's practically sexual harassment.

Thanks for that. That wasn't even an option for me, I guess being committed to Liara negates that right?  Does FemShep need to be completely single for this to happen?

That clip actually emphasized what I always believed about FemShep; she needs to be direct because her status intimidates men. In all other romances she has been the aggressor. I don't see her acting out of character here. 

I don't like it, but not because of any moral reasons. I know they made it one night stand because they didn't want to add more content acknowledging the new relationship.  It reeks of cost cutting. 

I have no problem with Femshep being aggressive in going after what she wants.   
What I, am i'm sure most people have a prolem with is the whole plying James with drink in order to sleep with you thing.  It just feels so sleezy and wrong.

I have an honest question for you....if he KEEPS telling you NO, why do you keep trying?  At this point wouldn't a woman who has been turned down HAVE to up the ante to get that same guy to say yes?  The game plays out like real life would under those exact same circumstances.

Pretty sure the only reason most people continued on is because they wanted to see how things played out. It could have gone a thousand different ways, but ended up going in one of the worst directions.

My thought's exactly.

[Sugarjaye]

Zagardal wrote...

Re-post from a different discussion. I guess it can sum up both sides of the argument:

Zagardal wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

It does start to feel like that. If this were swapped, there's no way it would get into the game at all.

Imagine it with ManShep and Ashley instead. She says no to him initially. He approaches her later, sits close, asks her how he can turn that no into a yes. That alone is pressuring. She says she'd have to be really drunk.
He continues to push, the implication reads, "Get to drinking, then."

At the end of the night, he asks her if she's drunk enough, then adds, "By which I mean, are you done?" as if to say, "I'm running out of patience. This is happening, get your ass in bed." She stutters, still struggling not to think of him as the Commander, his authority a shadow over the proceedings.

After the sex, she says she enjoys it... then hesitates with an, "I think". Obviously her reservations from before were never changed, they were just overcome by Shepard's pushing her. She then asks him not to tell anyone. He says, "Fine, if you make me some eggs," as the cherry on top of his offensive pursuit of his own selfish needs.

Ashley may be a strong woman, but this person is her superior officer and she respects him. He's abusing that respect to get into her pants.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I've never played Renegade Shepard, but I always assumed that although s/he would kill to suit his/her mission, I don't think the writers intended to portray that s/he's actually supposed to get his/her kicks from being pure evil.

Here we go...

James states more than once that the problem is that shepard is his superior. Hell, she's Commander Shepard, hero of the citadel, most people would be intimidated. Then, during the party he states he doesn't have a problem
"seeing her as a woman". After that he says that "It'd take quite a few drinks and one of those once in a lifetime nights" to get past the fact she's his superior; if he had ended the phrase right after the drinking part, that might have worked as a second and firm negative (and actually a little offensive if it had been uttered in a different tone, if you think of it), but then goes ahead and says something that obviously implies he's actually considering it, plain and simple. Then he says "I'm clearly tempted" and proceeds to ask you for feedback on which is the best course of action. Later, Cortez mentions how James
seems conflicted (in a good way) about the whole deal. Finally, Shep goes and asks "almost done?" which is a bit aggresive, I can admit that, but she's just asking whether or not the liquid courage was working (which is what James said he needed in the first place), I honestly don't see it as a subtle "this is happening, deal with it".

Cut to the next morning. James is the one to initiate dialog by saying "Wow, that was...", which by itself (just going by word selection, tone and short laugh at the end) just means he had a good time. Shep completes the thought by saying "fun? crazy? wild?", to which he replies "Definitely... I think" which is not a commentary on his reservations as you mentioned but on the fact that they were drunk last night, so some things might have been a blur. And that "make me eggs" thing is just a character reference to the huevos rancheros (which are actually quite
tasty), don't give it more thought than that; it could have been "calibrate my tv screen" or "set up the chess board" or any other reference depending on who ends up with you in bed.

I can see why people expecting a romance with James might have felt disappointed, but to call this harassment is at the most, debatable, and to call is date-rape (as some have) is just plain hyperbole; he didn't adopt fetal position, ****** his pants, throw up on the floor or anything like that, he was well enough to dance and talk fluently. To me this just was evidence of how men (specially flirty ones) can be intimidated by strong and forward women.

This was probably their intention, but they seemed to have failed in the delivery. As evidenced by people being upset by it.
But I do like your take on it. I think I might just view it this way whenever I play it from now on.

[WhiteKnyght]

HiddenInWar wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I don't get why Vega resists.

As much as I wanted Vega as a romance option for FemShep (they'd be perfect, two grunts in love), she was being waaaay too forward and pushy. Gave off a very creepy pre-rape vibe. I totally understand now why Vega shot down FemShep, at least that time.

100% agree. It really didn't look like he was into it. 

Vega chose to get drunk to take the edge off and sleep with Shepard. She asked him what it'd take, he answered, she said go for it, and he did. She didn't hold him down and force it down his throat then tie him to the bed and haveher way with him, or pick him up off the floor and drag him to her room after he passed out and screw him in his sleep.

He was sober and knew what would happen when he made the conscious decision to get plastered for that purpose.

[samb]

 FemShep has taken the initiative on all her romances, I'm a bit baffled as to why everyone has problem with it now. Given the dialogue mechanics this is obvious, but it fits in context too. FemShep is a strong woman and that often scares of mates. If she wasn't pro active about it she would be friend zoned forever. 

I think if BW had the dough, they would have made it into a real romance rather than a one night stand..... Wait, not that I think about it, James only shows up in this game not ME1 or ME2, his romance should have been as easy to integrate as Traynor's. WTH BW? No wonder people hated this. 

[visionazzery]

http://social.biowar...35/polls/44271/

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I don't see it as sexual harassment. Though I'm a bit WTF on WHY femshep would want to sleep with a drunk when Garrus is right there. Crazy I tell you. Crazy.

[Sugarjaye]

I can be taken either way obviously. And you can't romance Garrus everytime.

[HolyAvenger]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah I don't see it as sexual harassment. Though I'm a bit WTF on WHY femshep would want to sleep with a drunk when Garrus is right there. Crazy I tell you. Crazy.

Turians are fugly yo.

/flameshield on, comeatme

Edit: I do seriously have a FemShep who just doesn't find aliens attractive and only goes for the human romances.

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 14 mars 2013 - 10:08 .

[katamuro]

I watched the videos. And damn that was awkward. Really really awkward.

[ebreder]

The scene bothered me. When he gets up and says they should never talk about it - like he's ashamed - just gave me the creeps. He's just not into it at all, it looks like more than just nerves. I ship Shega ALL the way, but the scene gave me a distinct "cannot unsee" feeling, like I've stumbled into the wroooong subreddit.

They did it with their clothes on, even... [shudder] Make the bad Shepard get off Jimmy.

[Kabooooom]

Rape? No, that's idiotic. But femShep definitely made him her **** for the night it seemed.

[SinerAthin]

Shepard was waaaay to dirty for Vegas.


Understandable. She has a lot of steam to blow off, saving the whole damn galaxy!

[Raanz]

Watched the video of this....not rape. Aggressive female, reluctant male but still wanted to. After all, he could have said no. Vega was a big boy, he could take care of himself.

[Sc2mashimaro]

I watched the videos and I think Vega's character is completely into Shepard. The problem is a combination of idolizing her (she intimidates him), her position as his superior officer (unequal partnership is comfortable, she is asking him to do something uncomfortable by engaging in intimacy), and his tendency to use flirtation as a defense mechanism. Vega is no Jacob - I don't think he would cheat on Shepard. But he isn't necessarily secure with himself in this relationship. Shepard is an idol to him and these actions cause him to look at her differently than he did before.

That's how I see it.

[Megaton_Hope]

Shep's treading in some really unethical territory there, as Vega's commanding officer. At least Ashley expresses interest on her own, without prompting and cajoling.

[Wolfva2]

I'm sure someone else has pointed this out, but I don't have time to read 7 pages.

ANY sexual relationship between Shep and Vega IS skeezy and wrong. Why? Because Shep is Vega's commanding officer. There is a very good reason why Militaries around the world have non-fraternization rules in the Code of Conduct. I think the scene ya'll are talking about proves it. Vega apparently didn't want to engage in sex with Shep. Does so anyways. Why? He basically felt pressured into doing it. Remember, when a superior officer asks you something, it's still an order. So many people are upset with it because, on some level, they KNOW it was wrong. That Shep abused her authority. And that lessened Shep in their eyes.

This is the biggest flaw I see in the Bioware romance options. I mean, in DA it made sense for your Grey Warden to hook up with someone else in the group. Sure, you were the leader but everyone was there voluntarily. Any of them could get up and leave whenever they wanted (and a few do) without worrying about court marshal. In ME? Ok, the aliens, or Cerb operatives you worked with, I can see them as being borderline ok. But the military crew members? Nope. Relationships with them (in my pedantic opinion) should result in tension, distrust, and a lowering of respect from your crew for abusing your position and the chain of command. For all the talk of who and what Shepard is, the bottom line is Shepard IS a soldier of the Alliance Military. Not some vagabond member of a fatalistic dragon slaying cult. There are standards of behavior Shep should be held to.

[Sabariel]

Raanz wrote...

Watched the video of this....not rape. Aggressive female, reluctant male but still wanted to. After all, he could have said no. Vega was a big boy, he could take care of himself.

You don't need to be bigger than someone to intimidate them.

And he did say no.

[KainD]

Sabariel wrote...

And he did say no.

No he didn't. If he really did say "no", nothing would happen. 

[Megaton_Hope]

KainD wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

And he did say no.

No he didn't. If he really did say "no", nothing would happen. 

Often untrue, in cases of sexual harassment by one's direct superior. Coercion is an unethical way by which to obtain sex.

[Peranor]

The Javik "romance" was better. I'm just a bit disappointed they didn't do it in the airlock.