208 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Mammoth]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

You're right...no one is forced to read, care about, etc...

Anyways...taking out the part about wasting others time...

Why waste your time constantly complaining about something you do not like?

Especially those who are still complaining about ME3 as a whole a year later...

I don't know, obviously some people are bored. 

[Seboist]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...
That's besides the point. ME2 had interesting characters, but their involvement was utterly contrived - knowing nothing at all about enemy capabilities, you randomly assemble a squad of commandos and that magically turns out exactly what's needed to win in the end. Brilliant writing.

Yeah, what are the chances that leadership, biotics, and technical prowess will be needed in a space mission involving a coordinated enemy force?

Lol, you seriously think forming a ground team to fight a land war in space in a completely unknown battle scenario makes sense? Much good said ground team would do when they're blown out of the sky by an Armada of ships or any other defences Shepard and his group of weekend LARPers failed to recon ahead of time.

Much like ME3's nonsensical "take back Earth" premise ME2's plot(what little there is) only works due to pure contrivance.

Modifié par Seboist, 08 mars 2013 - 08:21 .

[LucasShark]

Since people were busy with a flamewar...

LucasShark wrote...

The worst aspect of citadel to me is evil clone shepard... I mean: when you are fishing ideas from "All my circuits" from futurama, you have a problem.

The reason it has gotten so much love in my opinion is that it evolks some of the better character stuff from ME 2, ie: what ME3 COULD have, and should have been. At best, your favourite character looks good, at worst, all save the clone thing is inoffensive compared to the rest of the game.

[MrGMM88]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

Especially those who are still complaining about ME3 as a whole a year later...

Because people care and they want bioware to know that so they keep pointing out the flaws so that they can improve on that. Citadel once again proved that they dont listen.

A whole team of professional writers and the "evil clone" plot is the best they can come up with? Sure the DLC was focused on the character but even that was disapointing in some cases. A example: Why not use the chance and give people a glimpse of talis face instead of having her sing? Why is it so hard to listen?

Modifié par MrGMM88, 08 mars 2013 - 08:25 .

[LucasShark]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

I mean: when you are fishing ideas from "All my circuits" from futurama, you have a problem.

>Idiotic meme removed<

Evil clones... EVIL CLONES!

Down from the first game writing an entire system to let FTL flight work without utterly ignoring our understanding of physics!

That is what it has come down to.

[Schneidend]

[quote]MrGMM88 wrote...

Debunk with your head canon or ingame evidence? 
[/quote]

In-game evidence, mostly, but some things that might be perceived as plot holes are simply open to interpretation, so I would have to resort to my "headcanon" in those instances.

[quote]Shadrach 88 wrote...

I'm playing devil's advocate, but...

Thermal clips in Jacob's loyalty mission?

[/quote]

Gameplay-story segregation.

[/quote]
There are several seats in the shuttle. Anyway, there is one plot hole in ME2 that cannot be explained away. EDI, until the Reaper IFF mission where you get to play as Joker, has no control over the ship's systems. When you escape from the Collector Ship Joker tells EDI to "get us the hell out of here" and she replies "engaging mass effect core" something she has no control over at that point in the game. That is a plot hole.
[/quote]

She regains control of the ship's systems when Joker unshackles her. That was the point of him doing that.
[quote]

MrGMM88 wrote...
Since you got all the answers i want you to answer these questions. Please also post all of your sources or quote the ingame dialogue.

Why didnt the Reapers take control of the Citadel and close down the relay network like they always do?

Why didnt Shepard try to retake the Collector Base if saved or at least shut down the Cerberus Base beyond the Omega 4 Relay?

Why didnt the normandy shoot harbinger/harbinger shoot the normandy?

Why didnt we use the Ilos backdoor relay to get to the Citadel (or at least consider the option)?

Why would the starchild allow us to destroy him and the reapers rather than accepting a peace offer?

[/quote]

1. Arrival covers this. The Reapers had to approach the galaxy at their unassisted FTL speeds, which is why they hit batarian space first, and why the relay in that system had to be destroyed. Supposedly, that relay could also control the network, like the Citadel. The Reapers have to work their way around the galaxy, system by system, because relays only connect to other, particular relays. They can't attack the Citadel because they have to maneuver like any marauding fleet that can't control relays would. This is why the Reapers are seen to gradually start taking star systems.

2. Shepard does even better, he takes out the main base of Cerberus operations in the area by retaking Omega. After that, Aria can deal with any Cerberus business coming through Omega-4.

3. When, exactly?

4. Ilos was either taken over/destroyed. Even if Ilos is accessible, the facility probably didn't have enough power to do any more jumps. Either way, it would still require the big fleet assault to get the Crucible in place.

5. The Starchild specifically says that the Crucible opens up new options that he and the Reapers had never considered possible. Ultimately, the Reapers were built to serve the best interests of Organics, and they thought that's what they were doing. Then, with the advent of the Crucible, suddenly the Catalyst is aware that it doesn't have all the answers.

[Village_Idiot]

Schneidend wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

I'm playing devil's advocate, but...

Thermal clips in Jacob's loyalty mission?

Gameplay-story segregation.

That doesn't explain the lore contradiction. If ammunition supply was going to be an issue in this mission, there's no end of lore friendly options that could have been explored (taking additional ammunition on the mission for example, or having the shuttle drop in supplies.) But they weren't- enemies are dropping the things as they die. It completely contradicts the codex entry that was written to support the gameplay mechanic in the first place.

[MrGMM88]

Schneidend wrote...

1. Arrival covers this. The Reapers had to approach the galaxy at their unassisted FTL speeds, which is why they hit batarian space first, and why the relay in that system had to be destroyed. Supposedly, that relay could also control the network, like the Citadel. The Reapers have to work their way around the galaxy, system by system, because relays only connect to other, particular relays. They can't attack the Citadel because they have to maneuver like any marauding fleet that can't control relays would. This is why the Reapers are seen to gradually start taking star systems.

Replay ME1. The Citadel controls the Relay Network. The reapers take control and shut down the relays therefore isolating each system. Nothing would have stopped them to travel/attack the Citadel first and take control

Schneidend wrote...

2. Shepard does even better, he takes out the main base of Cerberus operations in the area by retaking Omega. After that, Aria can deal with any Cerberus business coming through Omega-4.

Thats nonsense. The alliance is looking for clues about reapers and prothean data that can help build the crucible. The collector base/remains of the base are the best chance to find something useful. After retaking Omega there is no reason not to get back the base even if its just for resources/cut off cerberus.

Schneidend wrote...

3. When, exactly?

Beam run

Schneidend wrote...

4. Ilos was either taken over/destroyed. Even if Ilos is accessible, the facility probably didn't have enough power to do any more jumps. Either way, it would still require the big fleet assault to get the Crucible in place.

It was never destroyed. Power it up and send shepard and the troops through the relay to open the arms/take control of its systems.

Schneidend wrote...

5. The Starchild specifically says that the Crucible opens up new options that he and the Reapers had never considered possible. Ultimately, the Reapers were built to serve the best interests of Organics, and they thought that's what they were doing. Then, with the advent of the Crucible, suddenly the Catalyst is aware that it doesn't have all the answers.

Still doesnt answer the queston on why the child would chose death over peace.


As expected you got nothing.

Modifié par MrGMM88, 08 mars 2013 - 08:40 .

[corporal doody]

you know what was bad fanfic? ONE BIG CLICHE'...IT. "it was all a dream" ??? FOR REAL DAWG?

Shepard, you never left. You were on earth all along.

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 mars 2013 - 08:41 .

[AlexMBrennan]

you know what was bad fanfic? ONE BIG CLICHE'...IT. "it was all a dream" ??? FOR REAL DAWG?

That's not IT. True IT says that there never was a Shepard to begin with - it's all just a junkie's hallucinations.

[corporal doody]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

you know what was bad fanfic? ONE BIG CLICHE'...IT. "it was all a dream" ??? FOR REAL DAWG?

That's not IT. True IT says that there never was a Shepard to begin with - it's all just a junkie's hallucinations.

No no....Shepard was already dead right when ME1 started....and the trilogy was just Shep's mind telling Shep that death now is the better option....than HELL ON EARTH!

kinda like "Jacob's Ladder"

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 mars 2013 - 08:55 .

[Schneidend]

MrGMM88 wrote...


Replay ME1. The Citadel controls the Relay Network. The reapers take control and shut down the relays therefore isolating each system. Nothing would have stopped them to travel/attack the Citadel first and take control

Except for, you know, all those star systems and fleets directly in their way. They could have used the Citadel, but they had to get there, first, and make sure nobody could follow and flank them while they did so. That requires time, and conquest of adjacent worlds. Like I said, destroying the Alpha Relay in Arrival limited their options. They had to fight a ship-to-ship, planet-by-planet conflict like any other invading force would have to do without a relay that controls other relays under their control.

Schneidend wrote...


Thats nonsense. The alliance is looking for clues about reapers and prothean data that can help build the crucible. The collector base/remains of the base are the best chance to find something useful. After retaking Omega there is no reason not to get back the base even if its just for resources/cut off cerberus.

Retaking Omega already does cut off Cerberus. That was the point. As for any Prothean data, the Collector base was a home for already indoctrinated prothean husks. It would likely have no information on a device being devised by non-indoctrinated protheans. The Collectors are also henchmen. They wouldn't have any vital info about the Catalyst.

Beam run

Normandy was busy. Also, it's debatable whether the Normandy's weapons would even be sufficient to affect Harbinger, who is a dreadnaught-class Reaper with his shields fully operational.

It was never destroyed. Power it up and send shepard and the troops through the relay to open the arms/take control of its systems.

I believe by endgame there's a Reaper hovering over every system. Ilos was taken, if not destroyed. Further, the entire Citadel had been moved, and relays have limitations. The Ilos relay probably couldn't actually get you to the Citadel.

Still doesnt answer the queston on why the child would chose death over peace.


As expected you got nothing.

The Catalyst's purpose is to preserve organic life and keep synthetic life from annihilating the entire concept of organic life, and up until that point the Cycle was considered the best option to accomplish that. The Cycle preserves the essence and culture of organic races in cybernetic Reaper shells, because the assumption is that those races would inevitably be destroyed by their synthetic creations. The Catalyst is suddenly confronted with the knowledge that there are other options, and is presented with this human that now more or less knows just as much about the situation as it does because the situation has changed. The Catalyst even tells you that it wasn't aware the choices were possible until the Crucible linked with it. Like Shepard, if its destruction can serve to preserve organic life into the future, the Catalyst is willing to make that sacrifice. Presumably, the Catalyst also has no defenses of its own, and the Reapers can't help it at that point without harming it. It has probably resigned itself to the possibility of destruction. We're dealing with an alien artificial intelligence, here. Its logic and reasoning isn't going to fit into ours.

[MegaSovereign]

LucasShark wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

I mean: when you are fishing ideas from "All my circuits" from futurama, you have a problem.

>Idiotic meme removed<

Evil clones... EVIL CLONES!

Down from the first game writing an entire system to let FTL flight work without utterly ignoring our understanding of physics!

That is what it has come down to.

Can you explain to me why a clone is less logical than Project Lazarus?

[Schneidend]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

That doesn't explain the lore contradiction. If ammunition supply was going to be an issue in this mission, there's no end of lore friendly options that could have been explored (taking additional ammunition on the mission for example, or having the shuttle drop in supplies.) But they weren't- enemies are dropping the things as they die. It completely contradicts the codex entry that was written to support the gameplay mechanic in the first place.

There were fights, and therefore, for gameplay purposes, Shepard needed thermal clips to spawn. It doesn't explain the lore contradiction because it doesn't have to. Gameplay trumps lore, in the same way you're always stuck with two companions instead of bringing your entire 6-12-person army.

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

I mean: when you are fishing ideas from "All my circuits" from futurama, you have a problem.

>Idiotic meme removed<

Evil clones... EVIL CLONES!

Down from the first game writing an entire system to let FTL flight work without utterly ignoring our understanding of physics!

That is what it has come down to.

Can you explain to me why a clone is less logical than Project Lazarus?

And how either are less logical than a plant that craps out fully-armed asari?

[Mr.House]

dreamgazer wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

I mean: when you are fishing ideas from "All my circuits" from futurama, you have a problem.

>Idiotic meme removed<

Evil clones... EVIL CLONES!

Down from the first game writing an entire system to let FTL flight work without utterly ignoring our understanding of physics!

That is what it has come down to.

Can you explain to me why a clone is less logical than Project Lazarus?

And how either are less logical than a plant that craps out fully-armed asari?

*spits his juice*

[macrocarl]

So if they do something you don't like then they aren't listening and if they do something for the fans then they are just paying them service and it should be written off as 'fan fic'? Which I'm guessing means 'bad and/ or silly'? At any rate it's not being used as a positive thing. Anyway, threads like this are exactly why devs don't come here. I'm glad there's no more ME3 news so I can stop coming to this forum for a while.

[Village_Idiot]

Schneidend wrote...

There were fights, and therefore, for gameplay purposes, Shepard needed thermal clips to spawn. It doesn't explain the lore contradiction because it doesn't have to. Gameplay trumps lore, in the same way you're always stuck with two companions instead of bringing your entire 6-12-person army.

As I before stated, there were ways and means by which the obvious continuity error could have been avoided but wasn't. 

In any case, "Gameplay/Story segregation" is a non-argument. I appreciate it has to exist in order for gameplay to function, but that doesn't discount any number of the lore inconsistencies that arise because of it. It's a balancing act- the breaks from lore have to be minor enough so as not to completely annihilate immersion, but sufficient enough that gameplay remains fun. A plot-hole however, remains a plot-hole regardless of the mechanics involved.

Use of biotics in combat is another fine example, one that's been around since ME1. By the game's lore, biotic-Shep would be utterly exhausted about 5 minutes into each mission. Of course that doesn't happen since it would break the game, but it's still an inconsistency.

[corporal doody]

macrocarl wrote...

So if they do something you don't like then they aren't listening and if they do something for the fans then they are just paying them service and it should be written off as 'fan fic'? Which I'm guessing means 'bad and/ or silly'? At any rate it's not being used as a positive thing. Anyway, threads like this are exactly why devs don't come here. I'm glad there's no more ME3 news so I can stop coming to this forum for a while.

BSN rules state that if it doesnt give an ending that gives folks rainbow crapping unicorns and gumdrops and lollipops...than it is crap.  regardless of the quality of content. 

[dreamgazer]

corporal doody wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

So if they do something you don't like then they aren't listening and if they do something for the fans then they are just paying them service and it should be written off as 'fan fic'? Which I'm guessing means 'bad and/ or silly'? At any rate it's not being used as a positive thing. Anyway, threads like this are exactly why devs don't come here. I'm glad there's no more ME3 news so I can stop coming to this forum for a while.

BSN rules state that if it doesnt give an ending that gives folks rainbow crapping unicorns and gumdrops and lollipops...than it is crap.  regardless of the quality of content. 

Yet, you'll find plenty of people in here who disliked the ending (and a few who disliked ME3 as a whole) who liked and even loved Citadel. Hmm. 

[cactusberry]

Not going to lie; Citadel DLC was one of my favorite parts of the entire series.

[MrGMM88]

Schneidend wrote...

Except for, you know, all those star systems and fleets directly in their way. They could have used the Citadel, but they had to get there, first, and make sure nobody could follow and flank them while they did so. That requires time, and conquest of adjacent worlds. Like I said, destroying the Alpha Relay in Arrival limited their options. They had to fight a ship-to-ship, planet-by-planet conflict like any other invading force would have to do without a relay that controls other relays under their control.

Nothing would have stopped them from traveling to the citadel after hitting the first relay. Nothing can stop the reapers. Send in one and he will take over the entire citadel considering that all fleets are in action.

Schneidend wrote...

Retaking Omega already does cut off Cerberus. That was the point. As for any Prothean data, the Collector base was a home for already indoctrinated prothean husks. It would likely have no information on a device being devised by non-indoctrinated protheans. The Collectors are also henchmen. They wouldn't have any vital info about the Catalyst.

After the recent movie starring mister vega collectors do have prothean relics for whatever reason that may be.
Also the base is the home to some of the most advanced weapon tech in the galaxy. Also they did build a reaper in there. That alone could win the war when they find clues on how reapers are build/the material they are made out of and so on. The biggest decision in ME2 would/should matter and influence the story/war.

Schneidend wrote...

Normandy was busy. Also, it's debatable whether the Normandy's weapons would even be sufficient to affect Harbinger, who is a dreadnaught-class Reaper with his shields fully operational.

Doesnt matter. Shoot it to help the people who attack the beam and it doesnt explain why harbinger doesnt shoot the normandy.

Schneidend wrote...

I believe by endgame there's a Reaper hovering over every system. Ilos was taken, if not destroyed. Further, the entire Citadel had been moved, and relays have limitations. The Ilos relay probably couldn't actually get you to the Citadel.

Once again no real evidence from you. The writers simply forgot about ilos. If they hadnt they would have written a line about it.

Schneidend wrote...

The Catalyst's purpose is to preserve organic life and keep synthetic life from annihilating the entire concept of organic life, and up until that point the Cycle was considered the best option to accomplish that. The Cycle preserves the essence and culture of organic races in cybernetic Reaper shells, because the assumption is that those races would inevitably be destroyed by their synthetic creations. The Catalyst is suddenly confronted with the knowledge that there are other options, and is presented with this human that now more or less knows just as much about the situation as it does because the situation has changed. The Catalyst even tells you that it wasn't aware the choices were possible until the Crucible linked with it. Like Shepard, if its destruction can serve to preserve organic life into the future, the Catalyst is willing to make that sacrifice. Presumably, the Catalyst also has no defenses of its own, and the Reapers can't help it at that point without harming it. It has probably resigned itself to the possibility of destruction. We're dealing with an alien artificial intelligence, here. Its logic and reasoning isn't going to fit into ours.

Still doesnt explain why he would rather be destroyed. Why would he rather have you destroy all the reapers and the memories of their people when you could have peace? You would think that the collective knowledge of all reapers could figure that out. Or maybe refusal is just BW giving the finger to the fans who dont like their ending.