748 réponses à ce sujet

[shepard1038]

^Control isn't slavery.

[Alraiis]

The synthetics are committed to the war. They want to stop the Reapers. A new generation of geth can be rebuilt, so their race will live on. They don't grieve or mourn for their own, because they don't perceive individual life the same way organics do.

If Shepard ordered a battalion of human soldiers into certain death to hold off the enemy, they'd do it. If Shepard called up EDI and asked if she'd be willing to become non-functional to stop the Reapers, she'd say yes. She already said she'd pay that price earlier in the game, in fact. It's a hard choice, but my Shepard chose to call in that favor, from her and the Geth, to stop the Reapers for good.

And that's the choice I'd make even if it meant that Shepard would die as well. The fact that Shepard can live is metagame knowledge; it's not the reason behind the choice.

Call it a monstrous act, and I won't disagree with you. Call it unacceptable, and I'd beg to differ.

[Dr_Extrem]

Reapling wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Reapling wrote...

You guys don't pay attention, do you? Admiral Hackett specifically says that EVERYTHING that was lost can be REBUILT... and MORE. Once again, the catalyst states that synthetics can and WILL be rebuilt by future generations. The term genocide cannot be used here because it is reversible and is not intended. This is a dire situation, put yourself in Shepard's place and face the uncertainty of the future of Control and Synthesis. He may lose control over the reapers to the catalyst AND, like Thane says during the invasion of the heretic station in Mass Effect 2, it is better to die than to force a belief down someone's throat (re-writing the Heretics), which is exactly what synthesis is.

And we still have people of Jewish faith today...does that make the atrocities of WW2 any less disgusting?

No it doesn't, but that's the reality of warfare.

stop right there ..  the jews (and all the other victims) were not casualties of war. they were killed, because an (disgusting) idiology did brand them as "worthless life". thats a huge difference.

[Reapling]

Hexley UK wrote...

Reapling wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Reapling wrote...

You guys don't pay attention, do you? Admiral Hackett specifically says that EVERYTHING that was lost can be REBUILT... and MORE. Once again, the catalyst states that synthetics can and WILL be rebuilt by future generations. The term genocide cannot be used here because it is reversible and is not intended. This is a dire situation, put yourself in Shepard's place and face the uncertainty of the future of Control and Synthesis. He may lose control over the reapers to the catalyst AND, like Thane says during the invasion of the heretic station in Mass Effect 2, it is better to die than to force a belief down someone's throat (re-writing the Heretics), which is exactly what synthesis is.

And we still have people of Jewish faith today...does that make the atrocities of WW2 any less disgusting?

No it doesn't, but that's the reality of warfare.

Oh well that makes it okay then.

Please stop putting words into my mouth.

[Dr_Extrem]

shepard1038 wrote...

^Control isn't slavery.

ask the reapers who are still under the control of the new catalyst.

[CronoDragoon]

Xilizhra wrote...
What I mean is that you make the active and deliberate choice to kill the geth just as much as you do the Reapers.

Incorrect, because your intent in making the choice is to kill the Reapers, not to kill the geth. This is easily demonstrated by analyzing these hypothetical scenario:

Destroy kills the Reapers but not the geth. Do Destroyers still pick it? Yes.
Destroy kills the geth but not the Reapers. Do Destroyers still pick it? No. (unless you are RP-ing an AI hater).

Thus intent can be identified.

[Getorex]

The question is moot if you do the Right Thing ™ and install one of the fan mod endings that eliminates the nasty child god AND alters the ending so that the Geth are NOT wiped away. The Crucible McGuffin is an actual WEAPON that does WEAPONY stuff rather than magic stuff - magically turning people into glowing green robot-orgainic mixtures that is somehow different than normal synthetic-organic mixtures of chipped brains, chip-enhanced eyesight, chip-bearing biotics (L5 rather than L3!), synthetic/artificial limbs, organs, etc. OR magic that can magically discern the difference between an AI and a VI and just a REALLY smart expert system. Go the mod route and end the question(s) entirely.

[wright1978]

shepard1038 wrote...

^Control isn't slavery.

Police state then,same diff. Or we could just all accept that we all have different takes on what makes a particular ending abhorrent.

Modifié par wright1978, 08 mars 2013 - 06:20 .

[d-boy15]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

It's a selfish act borne of narcissism and vanity. The breath scene (which is most likely just the clone, anyway) is worth the loss of all synthetics to them. It's just that most people are petty, and this shouldn't surprise you. Most people would see most others die if they got what they wanted out of something, that's human nature, and it takes an exemplary person to not fit into that psychological profile. Most humans aren't exemplary. Most just want their own fantasies fulfilled at the expense of everything else.

So, the chance that Shepard might have survived (even though it's just the clone, we all know this) is enough to sacrifice EDI, the geth, all enhanced people (likely including the quarians), and anyone linked to them. That breath scene is worth ruining Joker's life. That's how selfish they are. I mean, Joker has been learning to love life and tolerate his sickness via EDI as his coping mechanism; he's been able to stop focusing on how he's somehow a 'lesser person,' he's less obsessed with his inferiority complex, and for the first time he's started to live. Narcissistic Destroyers take that away from him.

I mean, you're taking Joker's coping mechanism and only love away, you're going to break the man. That's how selfish they are. Joker's likely going to commit suicide in the Destroy ending because everything that matters to him has been taken away from him. Do Destroy fans care? Do they give a damn that they're completely effing up Joker's life? Nope. They just want their little breath scene. It's sad, to me, that most people are just so petty and pathetic.

I'm on a high horse here because I deserve to be. I've seen some ridiculous excuses and justifications for Destroy, all of which involve fallacies and intellectual dishonesty, none of them actually stand up to scrutiny. Destroy is just a purely selfish thing, and I consider anyone who picks it to be less of a human for doing so. Far less of a human than I am, anyway. To be human is to try and overcome instinct and selfishness, otherwise you're just a biological automaton.

To be that selfish, narcissistic, vain, and shallow? That doesn't make you a person in my book. I can barely recognise such people as sapient entities. They have no sense of ethics, no empathy, and just a hole filled with sociopathy where the more advanced aspects of humanity would otherwise occupy. Empathy is important to us as a species, as is selflessness. Without those things, we wouldn't have come half as far as we have. The best people embody intelligence, empathy, and selflessness.

Butt here you go, it's a sliding scale and you have to know where you are on it. Most people seem to be at rock bottom and are happy to be there. Some of us? Some of us want to be more than selfish, petty, empty biological automatons. Some of succeed. Some of us don't. Some of us pick Synthesis or Control, and some of us pick Destroy.

took you long enough, I expected you to show up early than this.

sometimes I don't know that you are really not good at trolling or just pathetic... if you are latter
I think you need to get a life or go see a doctor.

sigh... but what do I say... I think I already know the answer.

Modifié par d-boy15, 08 mars 2013 - 06:21 .

[Reapling]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Reapling wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Reapling wrote...

You guys don't pay attention, do you? Admiral Hackett specifically says that EVERYTHING that was lost can be REBUILT... and MORE. Once again, the catalyst states that synthetics can and WILL be rebuilt by future generations. The term genocide cannot be used here because it is reversible and is not intended. This is a dire situation, put yourself in Shepard's place and face the uncertainty of the future of Control and Synthesis. He may lose control over the reapers to the catalyst AND, like Thane says during the invasion of the heretic station in Mass Effect 2, it is better to die than to force a belief down someone's throat (re-writing the Heretics), which is exactly what synthesis is.

And we still have people of Jewish faith today...does that make the atrocities of WW2 any less disgusting?

No it doesn't, but that's the reality of warfare.

stop right there ..  the jews (and all the other victims) were not casualties of war. they were killed, because an (disgusting) idiology did brand them as "worthless life". thats a huge difference.

Yes, you have a point. However, who's to say that, in the long run, this new "Shepard AI" won't come to the same conclusion and deem that the cycle must begin anew? Instead of the eradictation of ONE species, you'll lose ALL OF THEM.

[Hexley UK]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

^Control isn't slavery.

ask the reapers who are still under the control of the new catalyst.

And by proxy everyone else...cause if you don't do what the Shepreaper says who knows what could happen.....

[Getorex]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
What I mean is that you make the active and deliberate choice to kill the geth just as much as you do the Reapers.

Incorrect, because your intent in making the choice is to kill the Reapers, not to kill the geth. This is easily demonstrated by analyzing these hypothetical scenario:

Destroy kills the Reapers but not the geth. Do Destroyers still pick it? Yes.
Destroy kills the geth but not the Reapers. Do Destroyers still pick it? No. (unless you are RP-ing an AI hater).

Thus intent can be identified.

Bad example.  There would be ZERO value to the second choice above.  The REAPERS are the thing, the geth have nothing to do with it so if you were offered the second option above, exercising that option would be the same as, say, going to war with Iraq because of terrorist acts committed by Saudis in Europe and Afghanistan.  That would be totally STUPID and even insane.

[MEGoWH777]

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Thank you. Destroy is neither deliberate nor is it systematic. Although, if your intent was to destroy all synthetics then yeah it'd be approaching genocide. As it stands, it's a sucky side-effect for most Destroyers.

It is deliberate...you deliberately press the destroy button.

To destroy the reapers, not the Geth, that's just a side effect.

[Hexley UK]

MEGoWH777 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Thank you. Destroy is neither deliberate nor is it systematic. Although, if your intent was to destroy all synthetics then yeah it'd be approaching genocide. As it stands, it's a sucky side-effect for most Destroyers.

It is deliberate...you deliberately press the destroy button.

To destroy the reapers, not the Geth, that's just a side effect.

So Shep sacrifices the Geth to destroy the Reapers.....side effect or not still Genocide.

[Reapling]

Hexley UK wrote...

MEGoWH777 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Thank you. Destroy is neither deliberate nor is it systematic. Although, if your intent was to destroy all synthetics then yeah it'd be approaching genocide. As it stands, it's a sucky side-effect for most Destroyers.

It is deliberate...you deliberately press the destroy button.

To destroy the reapers, not the Geth, that's just a side effect.

So Shep sacrifices the Geth to destroy the Reapers.....side effect or not still Genocide.

Temporary "genocide".

[shepard1038]

Hexley UK wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

^Control isn't slavery.

ask the reapers who are still under the control of the new catalyst.

And by proxy everyone else...cause if you don't do what the Shepreaper says who knows what could happen.....

The Reapers don't have free will. They are two different versions of control.

[Hexley UK]

Reapling wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

MEGoWH777 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Thank you. Destroy is neither deliberate nor is it systematic. Although, if your intent was to destroy all synthetics then yeah it'd be approaching genocide. As it stands, it's a sucky side-effect for most Destroyers.

It is deliberate...you deliberately press the destroy button.

To destroy the reapers, not the Geth, that's just a side effect.

So Shep sacrifices the Geth to destroy the Reapers.....side effect or not still Genocide.

Temporary "genocide".

WW2 had temporary "genocide"....still genocide...still repulsive.

Modifié par Hexley UK, 08 mars 2013 - 06:25 .

[Reapling]

Hexley UK wrote...

Reapling wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

MEGoWH777 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Thank you. Destroy is neither deliberate nor is it systematic. Although, if your intent was to destroy all synthetics then yeah it'd be approaching genocide. As it stands, it's a sucky side-effect for most Destroyers.

It is deliberate...you deliberately press the destroy button.

To destroy the reapers, not the Geth, that's just a side effect.

So Shep sacrifices the Geth to destroy the Reapers.....side effect or not still Genocide.

Temporary "genocide".

WW2 had temporary "genocide"....still genocide.

No, because last I checked, you can't rebuild a Jew.

[Xilizhra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
What I mean is that you make the active and deliberate choice to kill the geth just as much as you do the Reapers.

Incorrect, because your intent in making the choice is to kill the Reapers, not to kill the geth. This is easily demonstrated by analyzing these hypothetical scenario:

Destroy kills the Reapers but not the geth. Do Destroyers still pick it? Yes.
Destroy kills the geth but not the Reapers. Do Destroyers still pick it? No. (unless you are RP-ing an AI hater).

Thus intent can be identified.

Irrelevant. You can choose to not kill the geth and still stop the Reapers, but you refuse to do so.

[LilyasAvalon]

Because in my headcanon, they can be, and are, fixed. They're data who take physical presence in our existence with external bodies, okay, bodies are down and out, but who says that data isn't still out there?

Also, that isn't... um... racist against synthetics? It's a scientific view point. It's already been proven in ME that the 'data' of the brain is transferable through different physical bodies. Cyrogenentics believe that it will eventually be possible to move our 'data' into another, cloned body.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 08 mars 2013 - 06:28 .

[Hexley UK]

shepard1038 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

^Control isn't slavery.

ask the reapers who are still under the control of the new catalyst.

And by proxy everyone else...cause if you don't do what the Shepreaper says who knows what could happen.....

The Reapers don't have free will. They are two different versions of control.

Reapers only don't have free will because it was taken from them by force...by your logic you could enslave slaves and they would not be slaves anymore....because they were already slaves?

[Ryuzetsu]

The catalyst's logic is a lie. Legion, Edi, made it abundantly clear that they are software. Tali confirmed this after the Rannoch mission. If the destroy "pulse" is designed to Target software, then you couldn't get an Apple II-E to function after the blast let alone things like data slates, omni-tools, mass relays, ships...the list goes on. This is why the Catalyst gives Destroy as the first option, to make it sound cruel and the others more Humane. Synthesis, and Control both keep the Reapers in the galactic equation, an ideal that is the foundation of the catalyst's purpose.

[LucasShark]

shepard1038 wrote...

^Control isn't slavery.

Yeah: it's eternal submission to a galactic space god with mind controlling superweapons.

[Xilizhra]

No, because last I checked, you can't rebuild a Jew.

Just build golems. It's clearly exactly the same as bringing the originals back to life.

[Hexley UK]

Reapling wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Reapling wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

MEGoWH777 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Thank you. Destroy is neither deliberate nor is it systematic. Although, if your intent was to destroy all synthetics then yeah it'd be approaching genocide. As it stands, it's a sucky side-effect for most Destroyers.

It is deliberate...you deliberately press the destroy button.

To destroy the reapers, not the Geth, that's just a side effect.

So Shep sacrifices the Geth to destroy the Reapers.....side effect or not still Genocide.

Temporary "genocide".

WW2 had temporary "genocide"....still genocide.

No, because last I checked, you can't rebuild a Jew.

Yes but they procreate and make more...let me tell you about the birds and the bees...see a mommy bee and a daddy bee who love each other very much.....

Simantics.

Modifié par Hexley UK, 08 mars 2013 - 06:28 .