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Now with Poll: Destroyers - why can you accept the loss of all synthetics?


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#351
Getorex

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Luth0rHuss wrote...

Sorry Getorex didn't mean to seem as if I was being combative. To be honest I can agree with some of the points you mentioned. I guess I just don't have it in me to worry about it anymore honestly lol. I just pick one that felt good to me, and go with it. What minor peace of mind I have obtained from that is likely to be shattered should I delve too deeply into the science of it.


Oh, just wait for ME4 to totally kill your joy.  MP focused, microtransactions, very little RPG.  Suckage.

#352
Luth0rHuss

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I can't wrap my head around a MP focused mass effect. I didn't find the multi all that fun in terms of long-term playability in ME3. But that's just me.

#353
Reorte

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Luth0rHuss wrote...

I chose synthesis. But can also understand why so many get behind destroy. Frankly I mainly picked synthesis because I'm a sap. It's chock full of plot holes and nonsense, I completely agree, but for me, seeing the final monologue with EDI talking over it, and the various slides of life moving on in the EC, I don't know, it just made me feel happy. Perhaps that's what I needed after my disappointment of the initial endings. I believe that's why I still stick with it and maybe other players who don't mind a disney ending as well, to just avoid the disappointment I suppose. Regardless, I feel judgement on the moral standing of synthetic choosers is a little unfair. I didn't pick it because I set out to "gene-rape" or force anything on anyone. I heard the positive, I went with the positive. Yes, it's blind optimism, and I can totally see anyone going against it if they look into it, but on the whole, I'm happy things worked out. Everyone made their choices for there reasons. I understand differing view points completely. I would never say Synthesis trumps destroy or control, to each their own. I wanted happiness from cheese factor and tried to always play my Shepard as a peace maker. Some wanted it from the satisfaction of completing their initial mission. Some felt their Shepard could be the force to control the Reapers for good. We invested ourselves in our endings, no matter our head canon, because it reflects who we are or who we set Shepard out to be.

Although I still thoroughly despise Synthesis this is the first post I've read from someone who chose it that I can respect.

#354
Getorex

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Luth0rHuss wrote...

I can't wrap my head around a MP focused mass effect. I didn't find the multi all that fun in terms of long-term playability in ME3. But that's just me.


All MP is the same, regardless of game.  The sounds are largely the same, the mechanics are largely the same, the "plot" is nonexistent beyond "kill or be killed". 

At least it's easy for developers.  They don't have to do any thinking.  You don't need any writers or story idea.  Just stick bad guys on a map and have at them. 

#355
Raanz

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I saw the comment about Shepard surviving so Destroy doesn't destroy all synthetic life....wrong.

Shepard is not synthetic life and EDI even tells him during the game. Synthetic life is defined as artificial intelligence, Shepard's brain was still his own, only parts of his body were artificial. Someone with a pace maker is not synthetic life. The space boy just fed him a bunch of lies to get him to bend to his will...The Reapers wanted synthesis, remember a solution to the problem of synthetics and organics fighting, that was their prime directive set forth by the Levis.

#356
Getorex

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Raanz wrote...

I saw the comment about Shepard surviving so Destroy doesn't destroy all synthetic life....wrong.

Shepard is not synthetic life and EDI even tells him during the game. Synthetic life is defined as artificial intelligence, Shepard's brain was still his own, only parts of his body were artificial. Someone with a pace maker is not synthetic life. The space boy just fed him a bunch of lies to get him to bend to his will...The Reapers wanted synthesis, remember a solution to the problem of synthetics and organics fighting, that was their prime directive set forth by the Levis.


And the problem then remains: what magic tells the red magic beam that THIS box over here is a true AI and that one next to it is merely a VI?  What's the magic difference in electronic brain between a VI that is THIS close to being a real AI (it's just missing that one last Case statement or While loop that would push it over the edge) and a real AI that has that last loop in its code.  Does the electric brain automatically give off AI beams?  An AI smell? 

Sheesh.

#357
Nerevar-as

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Getorex wrote...

Raanz wrote...

I saw the comment about Shepard surviving so Destroy doesn't destroy all synthetic life....wrong.

Shepard is not synthetic life and EDI even tells him during the game. Synthetic life is defined as artificial intelligence, Shepard's brain was still his own, only parts of his body were artificial. Someone with a pace maker is not synthetic life. The space boy just fed him a bunch of lies to get him to bend to his will...The Reapers wanted synthesis, remember a solution to the problem of synthetics and organics fighting, that was their prime directive set forth by the Levis.


And the problem then remains: what magic tells the red magic beam that THIS box over here is a true AI and that one next to it is merely a VI?  What's the magic difference in electronic brain between a VI that is THIS close to being a real AI (it's just missing that one last Case statement or While loop that would push it over the edge) and a real AI that has that last loop in its code.  Does the electric brain automatically give off AI beams?  An AI smell? 

Sheesh.


Take geth for instance. From their description it´s likely they don´t use blueboxes. They were software that got upgraded and became aware when their sharing matrix allowed them extra processing capacity. They are very different from EDI and probably the Reapers themselves.

But about the red light discerning skills. We are supposed to accept synthesis, which takes that beyond plus infinite. If anything it proves that the AIs were destroyed by Starbrat´s whims.

#358
Reorte

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Take geth for instance. From their description it´s likely they don´t use blueboxes. They were software that got upgraded and became aware when their sharing matrix allowed them extra processing capacity. They are very different from EDI and probably the Reapers themselves.

But about the red light discerning skills. We are supposed to accept synthesis, which takes that beyond plus infinite. If anything it proves that the AIs were destroyed by Starbrat´s whims.

Ah, but the beam doesn't discriminate... Despite killing only synthetic life requiring a huge amount of very fine discrimination. I think that the lack of thought that went into writing such statements annoys me almost as much as anything else.

#359
Getorex

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Reorte wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Take geth for instance. From their description it´s likely they don´t use blueboxes. They were software that got upgraded and became aware when their sharing matrix allowed them extra processing capacity. They are very different from EDI and probably the Reapers themselves.

But about the red light discerning skills. We are supposed to accept synthesis, which takes that beyond plus infinite. If anything it proves that the AIs were destroyed by Starbrat´s whims.

Ah, but the beam doesn't discriminate... Despite killing only synthetic life requiring a huge amount of very fine discrimination. I think that the lack of thought that went into writing such statements annoys me almost as much as anything else.


The red beam clearly decompiles the code of ALL computers everywhere simultaneously, analyses it in fine detail, and determines that this here geth code has the magic Do While statement in it that give them true AI ability while this very very smart VI is missing the final Do While loop and just has a Case statement.  Not an AI.  So the geth bite it and the VI gets a pass (just do NOT add the Do While loop!).

Modifié par Getorex, 08 mars 2013 - 10:49 .


#360
Kaorunandrak

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cerberus1701 wrote...

Kaorunandrak wrote...

.

I didn't kill the reapers I destroyed a bunch of laser shooting toasters that have wifi access and emit white noise, nothing more nothing less. And edi as cool as she is is a toaster with ******.



Life is...life, regardless of organic or artificial nature. Consciousness can be "born" either way.

Is EDI alive?

Yes.

I still turn her off.

I take solace in the fact that she was willing to die to beat the Reapers.

Honestly, I don't even much let Joker's pain enter that end of the equation.
 
I've never liked him all that much, particularly after he caused my death in the second game. If I could have left him to die with the broken in half ship he was trying to save because he loved it to the point of fetish, I would have.

I'm not sure I even believe he loves EDI, so much as he loves the idea that the ship he adores now has a female avatar he can interact with physically.

The Geth and everyone else knew they may all die trying this thing, but they knew EVERYONE....FOR SURE....would die if they DIDN'T.

So, Destroy has a cost, but it's the least offensive compared to synthesis and has a far greater likelihood of long-term success compared to control.

And Refuse is just ridiculous ego.


Hey if it makes you feel better about choosing destroy then awesome. I operate under the opinion that life is organic and biological. Organic beings are dynamic, have biological needs, and require more then a power source to survive.

The Reapers, geth, and EDI are all mechanical constructs, self aware yes but not alive. They are out side the natural order constructed by organics and and programed by organics. I would even argue that the reapers aren't even true AI's only the star child is and only so much as he is still following his programing as corrupted and ill founded as it is. Edi and the geth are the only true AI in my opinion and even then they cannot die, take legion for example, he didn't die he spread his code to all geth while not haveing his individual personality it was his code that upgraded the geth thus making all of the geth legion IMHO.

So I say again
I didn't kill the reapers I destroyed a bunch of laser shooting
toasters that have wifi access and emit white noise, nothing more
nothing less. And edi as cool as she is is a toaster with ******

#361
IVicViperI

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All endings have downsides, I felt bad when I sacrificed the Geth + EDI (I don't ignore the fact they have become individuals, which made it even harder for me to choose Destroy), but I would have felt even worse if I had to force everybody into evolution and breaking up the promises of destroying the Reapers and coming back alive.

Moreover, I didn't like having Saren to die (where was my Paragon trigger when I needed it ?!) nor did I believe at all in his ideals, so choosing Synthesis while on the other hand he committed suicide 3 years before because he believed in me during his final moments would be even more insulting.

Also sure, Synthetics & Organics will be able to "understand" each other, but the Reapers killed (dozens of) billions of people just in this cycle, and nobody would even have a grudge against them just because they "look the same" ? Or is Synthesis also brainwashing people ? And Synthesis also increases the living being's lifespan does it ? Because for the species with an already long lifespan (Asaris & Krogans (especially)) who have lived in this cycle, they will have to cope with the fact that they are now living with once mass murderers who killed their families and friends, and that for thousands of years.

For me, there's no way around it : Synthesis is the ultimate middle-finger to the galaxy, and those who have fought for you, and Saren. I may interpret way too much, but this is how I feel about this ending. I could also talk about the potential problem of overpopulation but then again we still know only 1% of the galaxy.

Control is pretty much as bad in my opinion, if not worse, I don't like at all the idea of controlling the Reapers for all eternity while everyone is mourning because they think you're dead (especially the LI), and there's no telling you wouldn't go insane after some time, I would if I were Shepard, even if extremely Paragon. Same thing for the grudge as in Synthesis. Control is probably the most dangerous choice for long-term.

Both Control AND Synthesis can't break the cycle completely, even with only one Reaper, there's still danger. No one "dies" right away (except Shepard), I'd give it that, it's sort of pacifist.

That's how I see those two endings, Destroy feels less worse, that doesn't necessarily means it's flawless, without the Synthetics issue, I think a whole lot more people would have chosen this ending (even though Destroy is already chosen by the majority), and this thread wouldn't even exist.

#362
GreatBlueHeron

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I don't like any of the endings. It took the team out of the equation and elevated shep into a savior. Not how I wanted the game to end. Your three original choices were these: play a god, indoctrinate all organic and synthetic life or commit genocide. I had no reason to trust ghost boy, so no to control. Synthesis forces a unilateral decision on all life in the vein of uniformity, so no. Destroy was the least crappy choice. It eliminates the reapers and those who survive are free to do as they please--no threat of reapers controlled by shepgod and no indoctrination through synthesis. The genocide I do have a problem with, which is why all the endings are horrible. I really don't do headcannon...the endings are what was presented by BioWare. I would have liked a paragon ending, but we weren't given the option. Great series....it's just the last 10 minutes that suck.

#363
Luth0rHuss

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Reorte wrote...

Luth0rHuss wrote...

I chose synthesis. But can also understand why so many get behind destroy. Frankly I mainly picked synthesis because I'm a sap. It's chock full of plot holes and nonsense, I completely agree, but for me, seeing the final monologue with EDI talking over it, and the various slides of life moving on in the EC, I don't know, it just made me feel happy. Perhaps that's what I needed after my disappointment of the initial endings. I believe that's why I still stick with it and maybe other players who don't mind a disney ending as well, to just avoid the disappointment I suppose. Regardless, I feel judgement on the moral standing of synthetic choosers is a little unfair. I didn't pick it because I set out to "gene-rape" or force anything on anyone. I heard the positive, I went with the positive. Yes, it's blind optimism, and I can totally see anyone going against it if they look into it, but on the whole, I'm happy things worked out. Everyone made their choices for there reasons. I understand differing view points completely. I would never say Synthesis trumps destroy or control, to each their own. I wanted happiness from cheese factor and tried to always play my Shepard as a peace maker. Some wanted it from the satisfaction of completing their initial mission. Some felt their Shepard could be the force to control the Reapers for good. We invested ourselves in our endings, no matter our head canon, because it reflects who we are or who we set Shepard out to be.

Although I still thoroughly despise Synthesis this is the first post I've read from someone who chose it that I can respect.


Thank you! I really appreciate the response.

#364
Tron Mega

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i used to pick destroy because it was labeled "destroy." thats kindof what i had planned since the end of ME1, to send the reapers back into dark space. it left my shepard alive under some rubble, and left most of the galaxy alive only loosing the geth. i didnt metagame, or check the other endings out online, i simply choose destroy because theres no way i wanted to pick synthesis, and control was the opposite of what my intentions were.

but then i started thinking about the geth. how the geth were different then other synthetics. or the impression i got about hte geth is that they were unique, in the fact that they didint want to wage war on organics, like even remotely. so i thought i have to spare them, because if anyone knows what it means to be important, or unique, its my shepard. but then i start thinking , the catalyst has made this mistake before. its not like the geth were the first synthetics to not want to wage war. im sure there have been plenty of synthetics throughout the cyces that wasnted to be civil. its just that the catalyst is some kind of moron and doesnt notice that time after time.

so now i pick refuse and let everyone die.

Modifié par Tron Mega, 08 mars 2013 - 11:34 .


#365
Getorex

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You know, if you play ME1 and listen to Vigil (including you Mass Effect game developers and writers!) he gives you a hint on how to actually defeat the reapers WITHOUT some silly crucible and red, blue, green ending. Vigil specifically and clearly states that between harvests reapers wait in dark space in a kind of low energy hibernation state AND ARE VULNERABLE. That suggests/hints at a couple ways of beating the Reapers that DO use "conventional means" or even nonconventional but NOT extraordinary means. The writers and developers forgot what they wrote in ME1 (Vigil) AND ME2 (dark matter and rapid aging of a star). They opted not even for a tangent and went full perpendicular and full McGuffin. Hence the gnashing of teeth and rending of clothing that ensued from wronged customers.

#366
Drewton

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There's not nearly enough options on there.

#367
DistantUtopia

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Fawx9 wrote...

Pakundo wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Because the synthetics can be rebuilt to exact specifications.

It's a non-issue.


http://masseffect.wi...al_Intelligence


Which the Geth aren't.

The only AI you kill is EDI.


They are when they merge with Reaper Tech.  If you've killed them before hand, then yes, only EDI is the AI.

#368
Auld Wulf

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DistantUtopia wrote...

They are when they merge with Reaper Tech.  If you've killed them before hand, then yes, only EDI is the AI.

People don't seem to get that the Reaper code and EDI's quantum entanglement box basically means that every individual is an individual entity, and thus cannot be rebuilt if they are destroyed. There'll be no way to recreate them exactly, or even near to what they were. And without the Reaper code, the geth can't even gain the true sentience that Legion achieved in the end.

So... basically, you're screwing things up for so many people. If you broker a peace between the quarians and the geth, then teh geth merge with their suits in order to handle their adaption to their homeworld. Something that would now take months rather than years. Best case scenario: The quarians now have to wait years before they can call their homeworld trulhy a homeworld again. Worst case scenario: The quarian suits are considered synthetic life and their suits die. How many quarians would die in that scenario?

Not only that, but then there's Joker. You're taking away his only love and his ability to cope. You're just slaughtering her in cold blood. She can't be remade. She tells you why she can't be recreated in ME2. But you're killing her anyway... and Joker's going to be on his own again - no one to be with him to make his life better. He's pretty much going to feel fairly suicidal after that.

And then there are any other people who're enhanced with synthetic quantities, the Catalyst tells you that they'll meet their end, too. And what about AI that we're not introduced to? What about any other AIs that happen to be out there? AIs in hiding? They get to die, too. Their only sin is to be an AI. That kind of reminds me of atrocities in the past, with people whose only sin was to be Jewish, or black, or gay. And people could look the other way because they lacked the ability to empathise. They couldn't put themselves in the shoes of those other people. Or they were too scared to.

And that's what I'm seeing a lot of. Emotional maturity actually requires a well rounded intellect, to be able to empathise and sympathise. Any ethical person wouldn't ignore the plight of the quarians, the geth, Joker, or anyone else who'd get caught up in this. But you need empathy for that, you need to understand ethics for that, and to possess either of these things? You need to be intelligent. It's been proven time and again in studies that greed, vanity, and selfishness are borne of a deficit of intelligence... and it's... it's sobering to see that first hand. Here.

It makes you realise just how much something like Synthesis is needed - to boost the intelligence of the average person to the point where they are capable of empathy, sympathy, and ethics. Things that I take for granted, just as a day to day thing. Synthesis is something we could use today, really - and ME3 proves that.

People don't understand what empathy and sympathy are, they don't understand what ethics is or its applications, and they don't understand why others would balk at the mistreatment of the geth, EDI, Joker, or anyone else. They only understand mistreatment to their own person - sociopathy, essentially. What's sobering is realising just how widespread sociopathy is. It's an eye-opener.

I mean, if a person said that their Shepard was a monster and that they were roleplaying him/her that way, then fine. But I've seen excuses, like people were trying to defend Destroy as something they'd do. And it just proves everything I've said. Humanity is rife with sociopathy, and the realisation is sobering. I wish I could take my capability for empathy, sympathy, and ethics, and just write that onto those who don't possess it. They need it. They don't even realise why tehy need it, but they need it.

So we're going to see many more instances of poor excuses or people being easily confused about why we wouldn't want to watch the geth or EDI die. For those reasons.

#369
Aaleel

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I didn't see any choices in the poll that went with my mindset. I picked destroy because it best accomplish what I came there to do. As long as the reapers are alive they're a threat, only definitive way to stop them is to destroy each and every one of them.

Had the Catalyst said the discharge from the crucible would scorch part of Earth's surface and kill some people on the ground I still would have picked it. Had nothing to do with synthetics or being the lesser of three evils.

#370
overburning

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B, for the very simple reason that destroy is the only choice that get rid of the reapers.

#371
cactusberry

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Getorex wrote...

TheDarkRats wrote...

Destroy, but I'd pick Mehem if I could. I can't force myself to headcanon something I didn't see my Shepard do, so while I support Mehem, I can't take it as my ending.

I wouldn't download it on my console if it were possible because I am not looking for a console ban.


It doesn't get you banned.  I have mehem installed and there is no effect at all except getting a better ending (not great but you have to work with the ingredients you have).


Not automatically, but if Microsoft finds out something is modified and you have Xbox Live, you can get banned,

#372
TheCrazyHobo

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Getorex wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Take geth for instance. From their description it´s likely they don´t use blueboxes. They were software that got upgraded and became aware when their sharing matrix allowed them extra processing capacity. They are very different from EDI and probably the Reapers themselves.

But about the red light discerning skills. We are supposed to accept synthesis, which takes that beyond plus infinite. If anything it proves that the AIs were destroyed by Starbrat´s whims.

Ah, but the beam doesn't discriminate... Despite killing only synthetic life requiring a huge amount of very fine discrimination. I think that the lack of thought that went into writing such statements annoys me almost as much as anything else.



The red beam clearly decompiles the code of ALL computers everywhere simultaneously, analyses it in fine detail, and determines that this here geth code has the magic Do While statement in it that give them true AI ability while this very very smart VI is missing the final Do While loop and just has a Case statement.  Not an AI.  So the geth bite it and the VI gets a pass (just do NOT add the Do While loop!).



Personally, I think the Devs were hoping that nobody would ever put an effort to understanding their endings.  Their is no common denominator between the various forms of AI that would allow for the Cruicble and it's beam of "non discrimination" to easily destroy.  

#373
AlexMBrennan

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Not automatically, but if Microsoft finds out something is modified and you have Xbox Live, you can get banned,


And you knowingly and voluntarily bought that console? Why?

Personally, I think the Devs were hoping that nobody would ever put an effort to understanding their endings. Their is no common denominator between the various forms of AI that would allow for the Cruicble and it's beam of "non discrimination" to easily destroy.

Actually there is - according to the codex the need a quantum blue box. Just mutate the neutrinos and you're done

#374
TheCrazyHobo

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

Not automatically, but if Microsoft finds out something is modified and you have Xbox Live, you can get banned,


And you knowingly and voluntarily bought that console? Why?

Personally, I think the Devs were hoping that nobody would ever put an effort to understanding their endings. Their is no common denominator between the various forms of AI that would allow for the Cruicble and it's beam of "non discrimination" to easily destroy.

Actually there is - according to the codex the need a quantum blue box. Just mutate the neutrinos and you're done



The only known AI at the time of the ending to use a blue box was EDI.  The geth are software and are not tied to a physical platform and God knows what sort of AI platform the Reapers are based on.........

#375
Drewton

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Auld Wulf wrote...

And then there are any other people who're enhanced with synthetic quantities, the Catalyst tells you that they'll meet their end, too.

Like this guy?

Image IPB

Auld Wulf wrote...
It makes you realise just how much something like Synthesis is needed - to boost the intelligence of the average person to the point where they are capable of empathy, sympathy, and ethics. Things that I take for granted, just as a day to day thing. Synthesis is something we could use today, really - and ME3 proves that.

Can't tell if troll

Modifié par Drewton, 09 mars 2013 - 01:27 .