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Now with Poll: Destroyers - why can you accept the loss of all synthetics?


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#376
KwangtungTiger

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Auld Wulf wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

They are when they merge with Reaper Tech.  If you've killed them before hand, then yes, only EDI is the AI.

People don't seem to get that the Reaper code and EDI's quantum entanglement box basically means that every individual is an individual entity, and thus cannot be rebuilt if they are destroyed. There'll be no way to recreate them exactly, or even near to what they were. And without the Reaper code, the geth can't even gain the true sentience that Legion achieved in the end.

So... basically, you're screwing things up for so many people. If you broker a peace between the quarians and the geth, then teh geth merge with their suits in order to handle their adaption to their homeworld. Something that would now take months rather than years. Best case scenario: The quarians now have to wait years before they can call their homeworld trulhy a homeworld again. Worst case scenario: The quarian suits are considered synthetic life and their suits die. How many quarians would die in that scenario?

Not only that, but then there's Joker. You're taking away his only love and his ability to cope. You're just slaughtering her in cold blood. She can't be remade. She tells you why she can't be recreated in ME2. But you're killing her anyway... and Joker's going to be on his own again - no one to be with him to make his life better. He's pretty much going to feel fairly suicidal after that.

And then there are any other people who're enhanced with synthetic quantities, the Catalyst tells you that they'll meet their end, too. And what about AI that we're not introduced to? What about any other AIs that happen to be out there? AIs in hiding? They get to die, too. Their only sin is to be an AI. That kind of reminds me of atrocities in the past, with people whose only sin was to be Jewish, or black, or gay. And people could look the other way because they lacked the ability to empathise. They couldn't put themselves in the shoes of those other people. Or they were too scared to.

And that's what I'm seeing a lot of. Emotional maturity actually requires a well rounded intellect, to be able to empathise and sympathise. Any ethical person wouldn't ignore the plight of the quarians, the geth, Joker, or anyone else who'd get caught up in this. But you need empathy for that, you need to understand ethics for that, and to possess either of these things? You need to be intelligent. It's been proven time and again in studies that greed, vanity, and selfishness are borne of a deficit of intelligence... and it's... it's sobering to see that first hand. Here.

It makes you realise just how much something like Synthesis is needed - to boost the intelligence of the average person to the point where they are capable of empathy, sympathy, and ethics. Things that I take for granted, just as a day to day thing. Synthesis is something we could use today, really - and ME3 proves that.

People don't understand what empathy and sympathy are, they don't understand what ethics is or its applications, and they don't understand why others would balk at the mistreatment of the geth, EDI, Joker, or anyone else. They only understand mistreatment to their own person - sociopathy, essentially. What's sobering is realising just how widespread sociopathy is. It's an eye-opener.

I mean, if a person said that their Shepard was a monster and that they were roleplaying him/her that way, then fine. But I've seen excuses, like people were trying to defend Destroy as something they'd do. And it just proves everything I've said. Humanity is rife with sociopathy, and the realisation is sobering. I wish I could take my capability for empathy, sympathy, and ethics, and just write that onto those who don't possess it. They need it. They don't even realise why tehy need it, but they need it.

So we're going to see many more instances of poor excuses or people being easily confused about why we wouldn't want to watch the geth or EDI die. For those reasons.


 Lets hope your toaster doesn't break cause I could only imagine the tears you would shed for it.

#377
Targy90

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Drewton wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

And then there are any other people who're enhanced with synthetic quantities, the Catalyst tells you that they'll meet their end, too.

Like this guy?

Image IPB

Auld Wulf wrote...
It makes you realise just how much something like Synthesis is needed - to boost the intelligence of the average person to the point where they are capable of empathy, sympathy, and ethics. Things that I take for granted, just as a day to day thing. Synthesis is something we could use today, really - and ME3 proves that.

Can't tell if troll


Most verbose troll on the BSN.

#378
Drewton

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KwangtungTiger wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

They are when they merge with Reaper Tech.  If you've killed them before hand, then yes, only EDI is the AI.

People don't seem to get that the Reaper code and EDI's quantum entanglement box basically means that every individual is an individual entity, and thus cannot be rebuilt if they are destroyed. There'll be no way to recreate them exactly, or even near to what they were. And without the Reaper code, the geth can't even gain the true sentience that Legion achieved in the end.

So... basically, you're screwing things up for so many people. If you broker a peace between the quarians and the geth, then teh geth merge with their suits in order to handle their adaption to their homeworld. Something that would now take months rather than years. Best case scenario: The quarians now have to wait years before they can call their homeworld trulhy a homeworld again. Worst case scenario: The quarian suits are considered synthetic life and their suits die. How many quarians would die in that scenario?

Not only that, but then there's Joker. You're taking away his only love and his ability to cope. You're just slaughtering her in cold blood. She can't be remade. She tells you why she can't be recreated in ME2. But you're killing her anyway... and Joker's going to be on his own again - no one to be with him to make his life better. He's pretty much going to feel fairly suicidal after that.

And then there are any other people who're enhanced with synthetic quantities, the Catalyst tells you that they'll meet their end, too. And what about AI that we're not introduced to? What about any other AIs that happen to be out there? AIs in hiding? They get to die, too. Their only sin is to be an AI. That kind of reminds me of atrocities in the past, with people whose only sin was to be Jewish, or black, or gay. And people could look the other way because they lacked the ability to empathise. They couldn't put themselves in the shoes of those other people. Or they were too scared to.

And that's what I'm seeing a lot of. Emotional maturity actually requires a well rounded intellect, to be able to empathise and sympathise. Any ethical person wouldn't ignore the plight of the quarians, the geth, Joker, or anyone else who'd get caught up in this. But you need empathy for that, you need to understand ethics for that, and to possess either of these things? You need to be intelligent. It's been proven time and again in studies that greed, vanity, and selfishness are borne of a deficit of intelligence... and it's... it's sobering to see that first hand. Here.

It makes you realise just how much something like Synthesis is needed - to boost the intelligence of the average person to the point where they are capable of empathy, sympathy, and ethics. Things that I take for granted, just as a day to day thing. Synthesis is something we could use today, really - and ME3 proves that.

People don't understand what empathy and sympathy are, they don't understand what ethics is or its applications, and they don't understand why others would balk at the mistreatment of the geth, EDI, Joker, or anyone else. They only understand mistreatment to their own person - sociopathy, essentially. What's sobering is realising just how widespread sociopathy is. It's an eye-opener.

I mean, if a person said that their Shepard was a monster and that they were roleplaying him/her that way, then fine. But I've seen excuses, like people were trying to defend Destroy as something they'd do. And it just proves everything I've said. Humanity is rife with sociopathy, and the realisation is sobering. I wish I could take my capability for empathy, sympathy, and ethics, and just write that onto those who don't possess it. They need it. They don't even realise why tehy need it, but they need it.

So we're going to see many more instances of poor excuses or people being easily confused about why we wouldn't want to watch the geth or EDI die. For those reasons.


 Lets hope your toaster doesn't break cause I could only imagine the tears you would shed for it.

You don't have funerals for your comuters?

#379
BleedingUranium

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I picked destroy because it's the only way the Reapers die.

Both because it was my mission, and every one of my allies' mission, from day one, and because the Reapers need to die, for their crimes and to allow the galaxy to exist free of that threat.

#380
redbaron76

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Because it is the only right ending. Control is somethinng The illusive man wanted. He was indoctrinated and there fore his theory is doubtfull since it leaves reapers alive. Possibli leavaes a chance that harvests might start again. Synthesis is to much like playing god changing everybody with out consent which is wrong. And refusal is simply adminting defeat. Destroy is the only true option because galaxy can rebuild. And who is to say that EDI and Geth can not be rebuilt again. After all geth are software. I am sure if we ask quarins nicely they might recreate them. And destroy ensures that the reapers are no more and never a threat to galaxy.

Modifié par redbaron76, 09 mars 2013 - 02:11 .


#381
EnvyTB075

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Because i don't believe it actually happens.

>inb4 i have to explain my reasoning.....again.

#382
Col.Aurion

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machines can be fixed, beside the machines back stabbed out trust cough geth cough cough.

#383
MegaSovereign

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Because their sacrifices will be honored in the coming empire.

Yes, I know that's a Javik quote but I don't hate synthetics. I also don't believe that synthetics should be treated like a special interests group. It would have been no different than sacrificing the Turians or Asari.

The pros of (high-EMS) Destroy outweigh its cons, and it's arguably better than the alternatives.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 09 mars 2013 - 02:10 .


#384
cerberus1701

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redbaron76 wrote...

Because it is the only right ending. Control is somethinng The illusive man wanted. He was indoctrinated and there fore his theory is doubtfull since it leaves reapers alive. Possibli leavaes a chance that harvests might start again. Synthesis is to much like playing god changing everybody with out consent which is wrong. And refusal is simply adinting defeat. Destroy is the only true option because galaxy can rebuild. And who is to say that EDI and Geth can not be rebuilt again. After all geth are software. I am sure if we ask quarins nicely they might recreate them. And destroy ensures that the reapers are no more and never a threat to galaxy.



I don't see Refusal as admitting defeat.

It's the greatest display of ego puffery and cutting off your nose to spite your face in the history of mankind.

None of your choices work for me. They offend me, so I'm going to simply let you exterminate us all.

Just because.

It utterly defeats the purpose of the trilogy. If there were any circumstances under which you could have even conceived that you *might* let the Reapers win you should have just joined up with Saren or shot yourself in the head.

Even Synthesis is more palatable an ending than Refuse.

#385
Bill Casey

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Refuse is the only Paragon ending...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 09 mars 2013 - 02:09 .


#386
BleedingUranium

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Because there sacrifices will be honored in the coming empire.

Yes, I know that's Javik's quote but I don't hate synthetics. I also don't believe that synthetics should be treated like a special interests group. It would have been no different than sacrificing the Turians or Asari.


That's the exact point that a lot of the anti-destroyers don't understand. We sacrificed some soldiers for victory, it's war.

#387
MegaSovereign

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Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon ending...


Even without meta-gaming, Shepard knows there are lives at stake. If he does not detonate the Crucible, the Reapers will continue their harvest and more people will suffer from a fate worse than death.

Avoiding responsibility is not very paragon. No amount of mental gymnastics can change that.

#388
redbaron76

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We destroyers sacrificed few to save many. Sacrifficed EDI and Geth to save humans, asari, salarians, turians, krogan, yagh, raloi , vorcha and batarians so that galaxy can live in peace without reaper threat.

#389
Bill Casey

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon ending...


Even without meta-gaming, Shepard knows there are lives at stake. If he does not detonate the Crucible, the Reapers will continue their harvest and more people will suffer from a fate worse than death.

Avoiding responsibility is not very paragon. No amount of mental gymnastics can change that.

Using the Crucible is "The End Justifies The Means"...

#390
cerberus1701

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Kaorunandrak wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Kaorunandrak wrote...

.

I didn't kill the reapers I destroyed a bunch of laser shooting toasters that have wifi access and emit white noise, nothing more nothing less. And edi as cool as she is is a toaster with ******.



Life is...life, regardless of organic or artificial nature. Consciousness can be "born" either way.

Is EDI alive?

Yes.

I still turn her off.

I take solace in the fact that she was willing to die to beat the Reapers.

Honestly, I don't even much let Joker's pain enter that end of the equation.
 
I've never liked him all that much, particularly after he caused my death in the second game. If I could have left him to die with the broken in half ship he was trying to save because he loved it to the point of fetish, I would have.

I'm not sure I even believe he loves EDI, so much as he loves the idea that the ship he adores now has a female avatar he can interact with physically.

The Geth and everyone else knew they may all die trying this thing, but they knew EVERYONE....FOR SURE....would die if they DIDN'T.

So, Destroy has a cost, but it's the least offensive compared to synthesis and has a far greater likelihood of long-term success compared to control.

And Refuse is just ridiculous ego.


Hey if it makes you feel better about choosing destroy then awesome. I operate under the opinion that life is organic and biological. Organic beings are dynamic, have biological needs, and require more then a power source to survive.

The Reapers, geth, and EDI are all mechanical constructs, self aware yes but not alive. They are out side the natural order constructed by organics and and programed by organics. I would even argue that the reapers aren't even true AI's only the star child is and only so much as he is still following his programing as corrupted and ill founded as it is. Edi and the geth are the only true AI in my opinion and even then they cannot die, take legion for example, he didn't die he spread his code to all geth while not haveing his individual personality it was his code that upgraded the geth thus making all of the geth legion IMHO.

So I say again
I didn't kill the reapers I destroyed a bunch of laser shooting
toasters that have wifi access and emit white noise, nothing more
nothing less. And edi as cool as she is is a toaster with ******


Self-aware IS life. Indeed it's the only definition of life that matters.

Terri Schiavo spent years in a persistent vegetative state, her brain atrophied to a third of it's normal size. Yet she would still have fit your definition of life.

Animals (Humans included, not that anyone has done so yet) can be intentionally cloned without a brain or nervous systems. Yet they are organic, are biologically dynamic, and have biological needs.

Neither example "lives" in any relevant manner.
 

#391
The Grey Ranger

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Heck I've done the destroy and had Edi be one of the people getting off of the Normandy after the crash.

#392
the_last_krogan

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its the only ending that kills the reapers .... synthesis was sarens big dream ... that dream died by gunshot .... control is TIM dream ... and again that dream died by gunshot .... refuse we get wiped out .... destroy we kick they're asses .... and shepard survives it ... every other ending he dies ...as for the geth .... we'll get the quarians to name a continent on rannoch after them

#393
MegaSovereign

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Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon ending...


Even without meta-gaming, Shepard knows there are lives at stake. If he does not detonate the Crucible, the Reapers will continue their harvest and more people will suffer from a fate worse than death.

Avoiding responsibility is not very paragon. No amount of mental gymnastics can change that.

Using the Crucible is "The End Justifies The Means"...


I never claimed using the Crucible was Paragon. I'm just saying Refusal is even farther from it. In fact, it's incredibly egotistical.

#394
CronoDragoon

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MegaSovereign wrote...

I never claimed using the Crucible was Paragon. I'm just saying Refusal is even farther from it. In fact, it's incredibly egotistical.


Paragons can be pretty egotistical when you think about it.

#395
cerberus1701

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Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon ending...


Even without meta-gaming, Shepard knows there are lives at stake. If he does not detonate the Crucible, the Reapers will continue their harvest and more people will suffer from a fate worse than death.

Avoiding responsibility is not very paragon. No amount of mental gymnastics can change that.

Using the Crucible is "The End Justifies The Means"...



Using the Crucible is, "Sacrifice one, so that, for certain ALL the rest can live and their children can live without facing the Reapers."

Letting EVERYONE die when you could save most of them is not Paragon. Not when you're doing it for no other real reason than to salve your conscience.

I believe the Geth are alive. I sacrificed them (and always will) because sometimes, in the military it DOES come down to math. Horrible, nasty, evil, wretched math. You send three platoons up Suicide Hill because it gives your army the best chance to win.

I would have sacrificed The Turians...or the Quarians...or even myself and the Humans so that everyone else could move on, too,

#396
o Ventus

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Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon ending...


lolno

#397
Tron Mega

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon ending...


Even without meta-gaming, Shepard knows there are lives at stake. If he does not detonate the Crucible, the Reapers will continue their harvest and more people will suffer from a fate worse than death.

Avoiding responsibility is not very paragon. No amount of mental gymnastics can change that.

Using the Crucible is "The End Justifies The Means"...


I never claimed using the Crucible was Paragon. I'm just saying Refusal is even farther from it. In fact, it's incredibly egotistical.



considering indoctrination was supposed to be a heavily used tactic by the reapers, shepard should certainly consider the fact that the reapers have indoctrinated most of the higher ups of each species. making each one of them concentrate fully on building a "huge ******." i call it a huge ****** because thats all anyone knows about it, it looks like a huge ******. in order to divert everyones attention from the real means of winning, aka conventional victory VIA vigils advice.

so no, my shepard came to the conclusion that the crucible was left by the reapers to sidetrack the cycle into making somethign that does nothing, in turn the reapers kill everyone after that huge ****** just starts vibrateing once activated. oops, galaxy.

picking refusal is egotistical??? no. more like completely logical.

i think its entirely more insane to put the entire galaxies hopes and future into "the crucible."

seriously, as if the turian councellor wouldnt LOL and say "crucible? weve dismissed that device."

the only reason the crucible was so galactically accepted is because bioware has bad writers.

Modifié par Tron Mega, 09 mars 2013 - 02:37 .


#398
MegaSovereign

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Refusal would have been better if the speech and the reasoning was about how Shepard did not trust the Catalyst. Instead, Shepard goes on about he did "everything he could."

BS, if you ask me. I'd rather shoot the Catalyst and avoid the speech.

#399
selphiegirl

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Yeah I liked EDI...but I did not like those choices. It felt cruel to choose synthesis-seriously, what human wants to be a gun on a Batarian and what Batarian wants a human gun arm? Destroy was the few for the many. AI can always be rebuilt if needed. Also, I always felt BioWare pushed the Destroy ending since that is the one with Shepards cutscene.

#400
Drewton

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Refusal would have been better if the speech and the reasoning was about how Shepard did not trust the Catalyst. Instead, Shepard goes on about he did "everything he could."

BS, if you ask me. I'd rather shoot the Catalyst and avoid the speech.

I like how he talks to the Catalyst like he IS the Reapers/Harbinger.