748 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Synthesis is rape.

Oh, person who was calling us out for saying Destroy was genocide, here's your chance to not be a hypocrite!

Control does nothing but create the Shepalyst who will eventually crusade against the galaxy again once his last tie to it is gone, Even if by some miracle he does not, who would choose to live in the Reaper-controlled police state that would exist?

Well, the geth getting to live at all would be nice. And frankly, I think many would be just fine with a potential end to all future galactic wars.

My choice has nothing to do with enjoying killing.

Underestimating the magnitude of killing.

Calling you out? I'm pretty sure that wasn't me because:

I accept that EDI and the Geth are alive.

So, choosing for them to be wiped out is genocide.

I'd still choose it. Indeed, you can put Turains or Humans or Asari or whatever else in place of  the Geth and I'd STILL choose it.

Here's the difference between that and Synthesis:

In destroy they all CHOOSE to follow Shep. They collectively choose it knowing that they may not survive. They are prepared to die, if need be, to ensure victory. EDI, in fact, tells you so.

They did not go into this believing that he/she would alter their very being without their knowledge or consent.

If it was Turian/Asari/Quarian/etc instead of the Geth, it would have been real difficult for me to pick destroy. I didn't kill the Geth because they are machines, I killed them because of their survival at any cost attitude. Which means they  would turn on the Galaxy again if they are threatened ever again (turned on their masters, turned on the galaxy, turned on their own people and joined the reapers). Galaxy is better of without them.

[Xellith]

S.A.K wrote...

If it was Turian/Asari/Quarian/etc instead of the Geth, it would have been real difficult for me to pick destroy. I didn't kill the Geth because they are machines, I killed them because of their survival at any cost attitude. Which means they  would turn on the Galaxy again if they are threatened ever again (turned on their masters, turned on the galaxy, turned on their own people and joined the reapers). Galaxy is better of without them.

lolwut?

Name one instance outside of the Heretic Geth where the Geth did not act in self defence.  You are arguing that either someone or a group who are defending themselves from attack should be wiped out because they defend themselves from being wiped out?  And that the Geth should pay the price for their arrogance of defending themselves because the aggressors need protecting?

I mean really.. what is this.. I dont even..

1.  Morning War.  Geth wanted to co-exist and be free.  Quarians attacked them.  Geth retaliated.  They were merely children.  When the quarians retreated THE GETH LET THEM LEAVE.
2.  Heretic Geth.  The geth version of Cerberus.  A very small % of geth that attacked the citadel and help reapers.
3.  Legion even stating that (to paraphrase) leave us alone and we will leave you alone.
4. Quarians attacked Rannoch, Geth didnt want to fight.  Only when things hit the fan did they accept reaper help (and the reapers had been offering help for a long long time) They were still looking after fields and buildings for the quarians upon their eventual return. But they came back all guns blazing.  It was accept reaper help or die.  Id pick the help too if it meant DEFENDING against an aggressor.
5. Outside of the heretics there is NO instance of ANY Geth instigating ANY conflict.

Your entire point for picking destroy is based on Organics being assh***s and your belief that synthetics should pay the price because they had the arrogance to attack all invading forces.

The way you think is not a thing I can comprehend.

Modifié par Xellith, 11 mars 2013 - 04:11 .

[l7986]

My Shep was perfectly fine with slaughtering 305k Batarians, I think he'll be able to deal with what amounts to erasing a **** load of hard drives.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xellith wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

If it was Turian/Asari/Quarian/etc instead of the Geth, it would have been real difficult for me to pick destroy. I didn't kill the Geth because they are machines, I killed them because of their survival at any cost attitude. Which means they  would turn on the Galaxy again if they are threatened ever again (turned on their masters, turned on the galaxy, turned on their own people and joined the reapers). Galaxy is better of without them.

lolwut?

Name one instance outside of the Heretic Geth where the Geth did not act in self defence.  You are arguing that either someone or a group who are defending themselves from attack should be wiped out because they defend themselves from being wiped out?  And that the Geth should pay the price for their arrogance of defending themselves because the aggressors need protecting?

I mean really.. what is this.. I dont even..

1.  Morning War.  Geth wanted to co-exist and be free.  Quarians attacked them.  Geth retaliated.  They were merely children.  When the quarians retreated THE GETH LET THEM LEAVE.
2.  Heretic Geth.  The geth version of Cerberus.  A very small % of geth that attacked the citadel and help reapers.
3.  Legion even stating that (to paraphrase) leave us alone and we will leave you alone.
4. Quarians attacked Rannoch, Geth didnt want to fight.  Only when things hit the fan did they accept reaper help (and the reapers had been offering help for a long long time) They were still looking after fields and buildings for the quarians upon their eventual return. But they came back all guns blazing.  It was accept reaper help or die.  Id pick the help too if it meant DEFENDING against an aggressor.
5. Outside of the heretics there is NO instance of ANY Geth instigating ANY conflict.

Your entire point for picking destroy is based on Organics being assh***s and your belief that synthetics should pay the price because they had the arrogance to attack all invading forces.

The way you think is not a thing I can comprehend.

99% of the Quarian species dead in a single year is not self-defense. They responded to an attempted genocide with a successful one. They deemed the entire Quarian species a threat to them in spite of contrary evidence (just like the Quarian government at the time - however, it should be mentioned that they were compelled by Council law to do what they did) and acted to eliminate that "threat." Difference is, the Quarians who first tried to commit genocide have been dead for generations - the Geth who succeeded at the same are still alive and shooting at you.

Really, the relationship between the true Geth and the Heretics is more on par with the relationship between the Batarian Hegemony and the terrorists it denies responsibility for - only the Geth didn't even go so far as to deny responsibility, or indeed to have any communication of any kind with organics, until two years after the attack on the Citadel when the Heretics suddenly threatened them.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 mars 2013 - 04:31 .

[Xilizhra]

99% of the Quarian species dead in a single year is not self-defense. They responded to an attempted genocide with a successful one. They deemed the entire Quarian species a threat to them in spite of contrary evidence (just like the Quarian government at the time - however, it should be mentioned that they were compelled by Council law to do what they did) and acted to eliminate that "threat." Difference is, the Quarians who first tried to commit genocide have been dead for generations - the Geth who succeeded at the same are still alive and shooting at you.

From the geth point of view, especially in their infancy, it was self-defense; they came to the conclusion that the entire quarian race had turned on them, and just as all geth can be threatening if properly equipped, so too could all quarians. It seems rather unfair to judge race that had only existed for, at most, a couple of years for not developing decent standards of morality when it's taken humans and probably other races thousands of years to get as far as we have, which may not really be that far.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 mars 2013 - 04:35 .

[KwangtungTiger]

Xilizhra wrote...

99% of the Quarian species dead in a single year is not self-defense. They responded to an attempted genocide with a successful one. They deemed the entire Quarian species a threat to them in spite of contrary evidence (just like the Quarian government at the time - however, it should be mentioned that they were compelled by Council law to do what they did) and acted to eliminate that "threat." Difference is, the Quarians who first tried to commit genocide have been dead for generations - the Geth who succeeded at the same are still alive and shooting at you.

From the geth point of view, especially in their infancy, it was self-defense; they came to the conclusion that the entire quarian race had turned on them, and just as all geth can be threatening if properly equipped, so too could all quarians. It seems rather unfair to judge race that had only existed for, at most, a couple of years for not developing decent standards of morality when it's taken humans and probably other races thousands of years to get as far as we have, which may not really be that far.

 Some things need to be corrected in your post here.

-Some quarians sided with Geth

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 11 mars 2013 - 04:48 .

[Xilizhra]

-Some quarians sided with Geth

And were promptly murdered by their own people.

-It's not just a couple of years (Geth created in 1895ce and revolted in 2485ce)

I'm somewhat disinclined to believe you, given that, aside from the fact that you're wrong about it taking nearly that long, it isn't 2485 in the current timeline yet.

[KwangtungTiger]

Xilizhra wrote...

-Some quarians sided with Geth

And were promptly murdered by their own people.

-It's not just a couple of years (Geth created in 1895ce and revolted in 2485ce)

I'm somewhat disinclined to believe you, given that, aside from the fact that you're wrong about it taking nearly that long, it isn't 2485 in the current timeline yet.

On the first point you made the statement that ALL the quarians were basicaly against the geth.

On the second your right, the wiki (section that I read)is wrong

[Xilizhra]

On the first point you made the statement that ALL the quarians were basicaly against the geth.

The geth perceived them as such, but it was largely true after the quarian government killed many of its dissidents.

[DeinonSlayer]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

99% of the Quarian species dead in a single year is not self-defense. They responded to an attempted genocide with a successful one. They deemed the entire Quarian species a threat to them in spite of contrary evidence (just like the Quarian government at the time - however, it should be mentioned that they were compelled by Council law to do what they did) and acted to eliminate that "threat." Difference is, the Quarians who first tried to commit genocide have been dead for generations - the Geth who succeeded at the same are still alive and shooting at you.

From the geth point of view, especially in their infancy, it was self-defense; they came to the conclusion that the entire quarian race had turned on them, and just as all geth can be threatening if properly equipped, so too could all quarians. It seems rather unfair to judge race that had only existed for, at most, a couple of years for not developing decent standards of morality when it's taken humans and probably other races thousands of years to get as far as we have, which may not really be that far.

 Some things need to be corrected in your post here.

-Some quarians sided with Geth
-It's not just a couple of years (Geth created in 1895ce and revolted in 2485ce)

That's the contrary evidence I was talking about. And before it's brought up, Legion says the sympathizers were "outnumbered," not killed (the Geth VI, more representative of the Geth mindset at the time, doesn't acknowledge the sympathizers at all - and ultimately voices no regret at the prospect of exterminating them). As for the dates, they come from the timestamps given in the Geth Consensus. Legion doesn't provide both a start and end date, but according to the Geth VI, the war itself lasted a single year. This is consistent with the description in the books:

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile.
- Mass Effect: Revelation, pg 116

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 mars 2013 - 04:51 .

[S.A.K]

Xellith wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

If it was Turian/Asari/Quarian/etc instead of the Geth, it would have been real difficult for me to pick destroy. I didn't kill the Geth because they are machines, I killed them because of their survival at any cost attitude. Which means they  would turn on the Galaxy again if they are threatened ever again (turned on their masters, turned on the galaxy, turned on their own people and joined the reapers). Galaxy is better of without them.

lolwut?

Name one instance outside of the Heretic Geth where the Geth did not act in self defence.  You are arguing that either someone or a group who are defending themselves from attack should be wiped out because they defend themselves from being wiped out?  And that the Geth should pay the price for their arrogance of defending themselves because the aggressors need protecting?

I mean really.. what is this.. I dont even..

1.  Morning War.  Geth wanted to co-exist and be free.  Quarians attacked them.  Geth retaliated.  They were merely children.  When the quarians retreated THE GETH LET THEM LEAVE.
2.  Heretic Geth.  The geth version of Cerberus.  A very small % of geth that attacked the citadel and help reapers.
3.  Legion even stating that (to paraphrase) leave us alone and we will leave you alone.
4. Quarians attacked Rannoch, Geth didnt want to fight.  Only when things hit the fan did they accept reaper help (and the reapers had been offering help for a long long time) They were still looking after fields and buildings for the quarians upon their eventual return. But they came back all guns blazing.  It was accept reaper help or die.  Id pick the help too if it meant DEFENDING against an aggressor.
5. Outside of the heretics there is NO instance of ANY Geth instigating ANY conflict.

Your entire point for picking destroy is based on Organics being assh***s and your belief that synthetics should pay the price because they had the arrogance to attack all invading forces.

The way you think is not a thing I can comprehend.

Yeah? Few hits from the Quarians and they run crying to the reapers for help and get themselves enslaved again. If they are ok with loosing free will (Legion itself says that loosing free will is better than destruction). If thats the case why did they kill almost every Quarian including civiliance? Plus joining reapers show that they are willing to screw the whole galaxy to survive even without free will.

And by the way, they let the Heretics ruin any chance of the galaxy to identify Geth as none-violent. They were too scared to face the heretics which was just 5% of the geth force.

There is a fine line between self-defence and cowardice/stupidity. Galaxy is better without them.

[Rixatrix]

What about the fact that Shepard is still Alliance Navy, and these are his/her orders?

Obviously not the *only* reason, but one among many.

[S.A.K]

Xilizhra wrote...

-Some quarians sided with Geth

And were promptly murdered by their own people.

-It's not just a couple of years (Geth created in 1895ce and revolted in 2485ce)

I'm somewhat disinclined to believe you, given that, aside from the fact that you're wrong about it taking nearly that long, it isn't 2485 in the current timeline yet.

Legion clearly just showed what he wanted the commander to see. All he showed was Geth being the good guys and some Quarian dutch bags. I don't buy it and if I were to select an ending other than destroy, I'd kill the Geth first.

[Xilizhra]

That's the contrary evidence I was talking about. And before it's brought up, Legion says the sympathizers were "outnumbered," not killed (the Geth VI, more representative of the Geth mindset at the time, doesn't acknowledge the sympathizers at all - and ultimately voices no regret at the prospect of exterminating them). As for the dates, they come from the timestamps given in the Geth Consensus. Legion doesn't provide both a start and end date, but according to the Geth VI, the war itself lasted a single year. This is consistent with the description in the books:

"Outnumbered," in a context introduced by one of the geth sympathizers being gunned down. The implication is clear. Also, see above my point about issues of speed in developing morality.

Legion clearly just showed what he wanted the commander to see. All he
showed was Geth being the good guys and some Quarian dutch bags. I don't
buy it and if I were to select an ending other than destroy, I'd kill
the Geth first.

And, if we're currently being tough guys, I would kill you before you had the opportunity. In any case, I trust Legion.

What about the fact that Shepard is still Alliance Navy, and these are his/her orders?

I noticed. Consider this my resignation.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 mars 2013 - 04:57 .

[HeavyTankZA]

easy to justify it, it's a game, suspend your disbelief.

done.

[KBomb]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, person who was calling us out for saying Destroy was genocide, here's your chance to not be a hypocrite!

lol Is this in reference to me?

[KwangtungTiger]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's the contrary evidence I was talking about. And before it's brought up, Legion says the sympathizers were "outnumbered," not killed (the Geth VI, more representative of the Geth mindset at the time, doesn't acknowledge the sympathizers at all - and ultimately voices no regret at the prospect of exterminating them). As for the dates, they come from the timestamps given in the Geth Consensus. Legion doesn't provide both a start and end date, but according to the Geth VI, the war itself lasted a single year. This is consistent with the description in the books:

"Outnumbered," in a context introduced by one of the geth sympathizers being gunned down. The implication is clear. Also, see above my point about issues of speed in developing morality.

Legion clearly just showed what he wanted the commander to see. All he
showed was Geth being the good guys and some Quarian dutch bags. I don't
buy it and if I were to select an ending other than destroy, I'd kill
the Geth first.

And, if we're currently being tough guys, I would kill you before you had the opportunity. In any case, I trust Legion.

What about the fact that Shepard is still Alliance Navy, and these are his/her orders?

I noticed. Consider this my resignation.

 Then if I were you......Dont join the military. I could have refused going to Iraq, but if I did leavenworth (Military Jail) would probaly still be my home to this day

[Xilizhra]

Then if I were you......Dont join the military. I could have refused going to Iraq, but if I did leavenworth (Military Jail) would probaly still be my home to this day

I daresay it's rather difficult to imprison me in my current state.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's the contrary evidence I was talking about. And before it's brought up, Legion says the sympathizers were "outnumbered," not killed (the Geth VI, more representative of the Geth mindset at the time, doesn't acknowledge the sympathizers at all - and ultimately voices no regret at the prospect of exterminating them). As for the dates, they come from the timestamps given in the Geth Consensus. Legion doesn't provide both a start and end date, but according to the Geth VI, the war itself lasted a single year. This is consistent with the description in the books:

"Outnumbered," in a context introduced by one of the geth sympathizers being gunned down. The implication is clear. Also, see above my point about issues of speed in developing morality.

"Outnumbered," not killed. One casualty does not a quarian-on-quarian genocide make.

Bear in mind these are Geth videos, chosen by them to be shown to you in an environment where even the gun in your hands is an illusion. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that what they're showing us aren't outright fabrications (how would they have footage from on-board the fleeing Migrant Fleet, again?), the Geth are choosing what to show you, and they have a vested interest in garnering your sympathy. It's foolish to put absolute faith in it.

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, A House Divided

As for the "developing morality" issue, I have serious problems with simply handwaving casualties on that scale. Indeed, EDI did the same thing on Luna when she first came on-line, only that was a simulation of combat where she killed those marines - she was not under any real threat. I was hoping to hear some kind of expression of regret from her for having killed those marines, but she never apologizes, which I did not appreciate. Legion's geth are eager to atone for their actions. I applaud him for it. The VI's geth (representative of the Geth mindset after 300 years spent observing organics (and apparently learning nothing)), on the other hand, are eager to kill them off.

I'm not a fan of the insanity defense in real life, either. If someone commits a mass shooting, give them the needle.

[Funkdrspot]

o Ventus wrote...

Because the synthetics can be rebuilt to exact specifications.

It's a non-issue.

Problem is that as the clone issue should demonstrate, PEOPLE  can be rebuilt to exact specifications but what makes us isn't JUST DNA but the impact that our memories, our experiences have on our future actions and decisions. Our wisdom.

This is why it would be dangerous to think you could recreate the geth or EDI and end up with the same results. This is also the primary difference between the catalyst, an AI  with no experience, no memories, no background to use as a context for making future decisions vs Control Shepard AI


Having said that, I choose destroy for 1 reason. Without metagaming there is no way that a person in that situation could ever trust the catalyst after only a 5-10 min talk. You're talking about the driving force behind the reapers, who are masters of indoctrination, manipulation and deception. If i had reasonable assurance that Control wasn't a trick, I would sacrifice myself over killing off synthetics but we don't get that (assurance).

The simple reality is that war has cost. People WILL  ALWAYS die in war. The thing that sucks about this war is that there isn't a collective loss but a direct loss of 1 race (synthetics +  EDI) out of 13 or so. You could change the race that takes the hit but I  would still choose destroy and if you think about it, that's not a bad cost to pay considering how dominant the enemy has been. They've been around 1 billion yrs. There are 14 or so races THIS cycle. A cycle is 50k yrs give or take

1,000,000,000 / 50,000 = 20,000 cycles
20,000 cycles * 14 races per cycle = 280,000 races extinguished

To lose 1 race to stop an army that has killed 280,000 races prior is a good turnout.

Modifié par Funkdrspot, 11 mars 2013 - 05:21 .

[Xilizhra]

"Outnumbered," not killed. One casualty does not a quarian-on-quarian genocide make.

An example of a larger issue.

Bear in mind these are Geth videos, chosen by them to be shown to you in an environment where even the gun in your hands is an illusion. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that what they're showing us aren't outright fabrications (how would they have footage from on-board the fleeing Migrant Fleet, again?), the Geth are choosing what to show you, and they have a vested interest in garnering your sympathy. It's foolish to put absolute faith in it.

A. I trust Legion. B. It doesn't affect my decision either way.

As for the "developing morality" issue, I have serious problems with simply handwaving casualties on that scale. Indeed, EDI did the same thing on Luna when she first came on-line, only that was a simulation of combat where she killed those marines - she was not under any real threat. I was hoping to hear some kind of expression of regret from her for having killed those marines, but she never apologizes, which I did not appreciate. Legion's geth are eager to atone for their actions. I applaud him for it. The VI's geth (representative of the Geth mindset after 300 years spent observing organics (and apparently learning nothing)), on the other hand, are eager to kill them off.

I'm not a fan of the insanity defense in real life, either. If someone commits a mass shooting, give them the needle.

I don't believe in the death penalty regardless. Rehabilitate or, if impossible, rewrite (when that can be done).

[Bill Casey]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Problem is that as the clone issue should demonstrate, PEOPLE  can be rebuilt to exact specifications but what makes us isn't JUST DNA but the impact that our memories, our experiences have on our future actions and decisions. Our wisdom.

This is why it would be dangerous to think you could recreate the geth or EDI and end up with the same results.

For all intents and purposes, you would be building their children...
Reproduction, if you will...

[cerberus1701]

Quote from SAK:

I killed them because of their survival at any cost attitude.

You think the Human race is any different? You think if aliens came here to wipe us out as a species that we wouldn't do what we had to do? That we wouldn't do the most vile, horrific things to them is that meant Humans survived and they didn't...or they ran home?

Please.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Outnumbered," not killed. One casualty does not a quarian-on-quarian genocide make.

An example of a larger issue.

One which Bioware has kept deliberately vague to promote discussions such as this.

Xilizhra wrote...

Bear in mind these are Geth videos, chosen by them to be shown to you in an environment where even the gun in your hands is an illusion. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that what they're showing us aren't outright fabrications (how would they have footage from on-board the fleeing Migrant Fleet, again?), the Geth are choosing what to show you, and they have a vested interest in garnering your sympathy. It's foolish to put absolute faith in it.

A. I trust Legion. B. It doesn't affect my decision either way.

I don't trust Legion as much as you do. He committed an act of espionage on my ship in the last game and lies to me repeatedly in this one. Still, metagaming that the Reaper code won't make the Geth go Rachni Breeder on us, if I can make peace, I will.

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not a fan of the insanity defense in real life, either. If someone commits a mass shooting, give them the needle.

I don't believe in the death penalty regardless. Rehabilitate or, if impossible, rewrite (when that can be done).

I believe there are offenses for which it is warranted. To avoid a prolonged discussion, I'll leave it at that.

...rewrite? Sorry. That's just wrong. A needle in the arm and a slide into the long dark is more dignified than wiping someone's entire personality in favor of one chosen by somebody else.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 mars 2013 - 05:38 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't trust Legion as much as you do. He committed an act of espionage on my ship in the last game and lies to me repeatedly in this one. Still, metagaming that the Reaper code won't make the Geth go Rachni Breeder on us, if I can make peace, I will.

I never experienced the rachni breeder, so would not have that particular reason to worry.

I believe there are offenses for which it is warranted. To avoid a prolonged discussion, I'll leave it at that.

...rewrite? Sorry. That's just wrong. A needle in the arm is more dignified.

You have oddly selective circumstances in which to care about the opinions of the ones you've condemned. Would you rather I mulch them into Reaper juice?