748 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

Xilizhra wrote...

Every decision is made based on one assumption or another.

Just like Control and Synthesis.

Also, their regret is meaningless. If they truly regretted it so much, they should have swallowed their fears regarding the other options.

You justify yourself killing innocents because you couldn't swallow your fears regarding what may happen if Koris died. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle.

Edit: Also, I am mainly just having a little fun at your expense. I don't care what choice you made, be it any of the three. It was your game, your experience, your time. Whatever choice you made for your Shepard was the right one. You should realize that if you want others to see your point of view concerning Control, you should stop being so judgmental and self-righteous about their decision. It makes you look petty and small minded. You can't condemn other people for sacrificing for the greater good, then pat yourself on the back for doing the same. You can't have it both ways.

Modifié par KBomb, 11 mars 2013 - 07:40 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

BleedingUranium wrote...

You're missing the point, Xil. Destroy is the only way the Reapers die, thus the only true victory. Everything else is secondary.

I never got that. Destroy the Reapers. Control the Reapers. Make friends with the Reapers. Convince the Reapers to leave us alone. Convince the Reapers their job is already done by using an elaborate scheme involving cardboard cuthouts and monkeys. What does it matter which one you hoose as long as people aren't being killed anymore?

Pointless revanchism serves no purpose.

[BleedingUranium]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

You're missing the point, Xil. Destroy is the only way the Reapers die, thus the only true victory. Everything else is secondary.

I never got that. Destroy the Reapers. Control the Reapers. Make friends with the Reapers. Convince the Reapers to leave us alone. Convince the Reapers their job is already done by using an elaborate scheme involving cardboard cuthouts and monkeys. What does it matter which one you hoose as long as people aren't being killed anymore?

Pointless revanchism serves no purpose.

Because only one of those guarantees it will never happen again. And all life in the galaxy, every 50,000 years is pretty high stakes.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Some destroyers tend to think there is little reason we should trust the Catalyst. I remember once that I was warned about Eclipse mercs having to commit murder in order to join the gang. I am not about believe an enemy that has shown no hint of mercy, morality, or willingness to compromise until the moment they realive I have won. That is not repentance or compromise, and nor is it morality or kindness, that is desperation.

"I know you've thought about destroying us, but let me convince you to do something else..."

As far as accepting the loss of all synthetics: this war was already at the entire species/civilizations level. Nobody was safe from the war and the cost of not destroying the Reapers is that nobody gets to live - not even the Geth.

From a meta-game stance, you can say "look, control and synthesis work out fine", but I think Shepard has perfectly good reasons to doubt the sincerety of the Catalyst when he/she doesn't have the benefit of knowing exactly what will happen.

[Jassu1979]

Do I really need to keep reminding people that the Catalyst "controls the Reapers" (or is a representation of "the collective intelligence of all Reapers")?

You know - the REAPERS? Giant, sentient spaceships who impale people on spikes in order to turn them into shock troop technozombies? Sadistic, semi-godlike tentacle-horrors who turn ardat-yakshi into banshees? Cthulhuesque enemies who put earth's inhabitants in concentration camps and play cruel mind games with them before turning them into reaper goo? The ones responsible for the hallways filled with mutilated bodies you just passed through?
In short: the MAIN ANTAGONIST OF THE ENTIRE TRILOGY?

Do you remember who killed the boy whose appearance the Catalyst napped from your mind? You know, the kid who plagued your nightmares throughout the game because you could not save him?
But yeah, I'm sure the voice of the Reapers only has your best interests in mind. After all, fire cannot be at war, can it?

I would have prefered a "successful Refuse"-ending, and even appreciate the "normal" Refuse ending, as it seems to be more in keeping with Shepard's core values throughout the trilogy.
But out of all the bad choices offered, Destroy is still the way to go. There is just no way to side with little space Hitler without losing the game.

[Xilizhra]

Edit: Also, I am mainly just having a little fun at your expense. I don't care what choice you made, be it any of the three. It was your game, your experience, your time. Whatever choice you made for your Shepard was the right one. You should realize that if you want others to see your point of view concerning Control, you should stop being so judgmental and self-righteous about their decision. It makes you look petty and small minded. You can't condemn other people for sacrificing for the greater good, then pat yourself on the back for doing the same. You can't have it both ways.

I have no illusions about the odds of anyone seeing my point. Also, what I'm mostly talking about isn't about sacrifice so much as it is how it seems, to me, that the Destroy side is overfocused on one goal and finds killing billions to be an acceptable sacrifice because of that specifically.

[cerberus1701]

Bill Casey wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Quote from SAK:

I killed them because of their survival at any cost attitude.

You think the Human race is any different? You think if aliens came here to wipe us out as a species that we wouldn't do what we had to do? That we wouldn't do the most vile, horrific things to them is that meant Humans survived and they didn't...or they ran home?

Please.

According to EDI, ninety percent didn't even though indoctrination should have reduced that number to zero...

In fact some even fed reapers misinformation at the cost of their own lives to protect people who weren't friends or relatives...

So...Humans didn't betray Humans to the exterminating entity?

Thanks for proving my point.

And if Humans had to exterminate the children of the exterminating enemy and grind them to powder to horrify the enemy enough to leave?

It will happen.

[Slayer299]

@Xilizhra - exactly what "billions" are you talking about? The Geth, (Who as stated before are a necessary loss to defeat the Reapers) or the Reapers themselves?

And the "overfocus on one goal" is the point for many in the first place, that this is to stop the Reapers, and Destroy fits quite nicely with that. I don't understand your reasoning that Synthesis/Control are somehow superior because there is no 'sacrifice' of anyone to defeat the Reapers.

[ThatDancingTurian]

So... question. Why is it that the beam works against everything synthetic for Destroy, but the same implication is not made for Control? In Control, aren't you just forcing the geth and EDI into slavery with the rest?

[Xilizhra]

Slayer299 wrote...

@Xilizhra - exactly what "billions" are you talking about? The Geth, (Who as stated before are a necessary loss to defeat the Reapers) or the Reapers themselves?

And the "overfocus on one goal" is the point for many in the first place, that this is to stop the Reapers, and Destroy fits quite nicely with that. I don't understand your reasoning that Synthesis/Control are somehow superior because there is no 'sacrifice' of anyone to defeat the Reapers.

Actually, both. And all three choices stop the actual cycle.

[CronoDragoon]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

So... question. Why is it that the beam works against everything synthetic for Destroy, but the same implication is not made for Control? In Control, aren't you just forcing the geth and EDI into slavery with the rest?

The most logical conclusion I've come to is that the beam in Control is just a signal sent to the Reapers establishing the new mind link; the actual work is done at the decision platform where Shepard's new AI replaces the Catalyst. In other words, it's just sending a signal to an already established network.

Edit: The real reason is nobody thought this crap through while writing it, but this is the best non-meta explanation I can think of.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 mars 2013 - 02:39 .

[cerberus1701]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

So... question. Why is it that the beam works against everything synthetic for Destroy, but the same implication is not made for Control? In Control, aren't you just forcing the geth and EDI into slavery with the rest?

Yes.

You may not be formally collared, But the Masters are there in their 100 stories tall of awsomeness with their death beams of justice, ready to crack the whip.

How would society have evolved if a wrathful God had actually been looking over your shoulder?

[George Costanza]

I justify it because I think it's the best of three bad options. I'd prefer a way to finish off the Reapers without sacrificing the Geth, but there wasn't one that wasn't bleach drinkingly awful.

[ThatDancingTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

So... question. Why is it that the beam works against everything synthetic for Destroy, but the same implication is not made for Control? In Control, aren't you just forcing the geth and EDI into slavery with the rest?

The most logical conclusion I've come to is that the beam in Control is just a signal sent to the Reapers establishing the new mind link; the actual work is done at the decision platform where Shepard's new AI replaces the Catalyst. In other words, it's just sending a signal to an already established network.

Edit: The real reason is nobody thought this crap through while writing it, but this is the best non-meta explanation I can think of.

But do we know that this is true, that it's just a link that has to be activated, or is it something more permanent? The Reapers were extremely advanced AI, but they behaved like drones. How will such control affect the geth and EDI? It's a whole new can of worms and like Synthesis, could have some majorly unfortunate implications.

EDIT: For example, the newly emotionless Shepard AI obviously sees no harm in using the Reapers, supposedly full-fledged AIs with their own sentience, as tools to do his/her bidding. What if it decides the same should be said of EDI and the geth? It has no sentiment to stop it. What if its purely 'for the sake of everyone' attitude turns EDI into another drone without her consent, sending her away from Joker and on missions her larger drones can't accomplish, making her a slave in her own body?

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 11 mars 2013 - 02:51 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Citadel DLC explains perfectly why destroy is the right choice:

Anderson: A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 11 mars 2013 - 03:22 .

[CronoDragoon]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
But do we know that this is true, that it's just a link that has to be activated, or is it something more permanent? The Reapers were extremely advanced AI, but they behaved like drones. How will such control affect the geth and EDI? It's a whole new can of worms and like Synthesis, could have some majorly unfortunate implications.

EDIT: For example, the newly emotionless Shepard AI obviously sees no harm in using the Reapers, supposedly full-fledged AIs with their own sentience, as tools to do his/her bidding. What if it decides the same should be said of EDI and the geth? It has no sentiment to stop it. What if its purely 'for the sake of everyone' attitude turns EDI into another drone without her consent, sending her away from Joker and on missions her larger drones can't accomplish, making her a slave in her own body?

You are talking about after the Crucible beam now I take it, in a post-choice world?

That's an interesting point, and perhaps is a personal question for each Shepard. For example, if your Shepard rewrote the heretics, then that decision is also going to be carried over to the Shepard-AI, which may in turn lead him/her/it to conclude that in order to protect the geth/EDI it may have to rewrite them to "protect them from themselves".

As for your first point, we don't know the exact nature of the Catalyst/Reaper link, but the Reapers did not just behave like drones. Harbinger, Sovereign, and the destroyer on Rannoch all had their own personalities. It's likely that the Catalyst only controls them insofar as he needs to keep them Reaping; if you have a Reaper like Harbinger that seems 100% gung-ho about the cycle, the Catalyst likely doesn't have to exert any special domination over his mind - though he could if the situation arose. That's essentially the case with organic Indoctrination so I think the synthetic counterpart would be similar.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 mars 2013 - 02:59 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

I meant in terms of their actions, not their personalities. For fully fledge AIs, they never seemed to question their purpose.

[CronoDragoon]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I meant in terms of their actions, not their personalities. For fully fledge AIs, they never seemed to question their purpose.

That could be related though; in other words the only Reapers allowed to maintain their own personalities are the ones that agree with the purpose of the cycle. It's possible other Reapers that were anti-cycle are completely dominated by the Catalyst and are essentially walking avatars for him, similar to how the Reapers eventually control Grayson completely in the books right down to the words that come out of his mouth, while TIM is more left to his own devices considering his goals are counterproductive to Shepard's war effort.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 mars 2013 - 03:03 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I meant in terms of their actions, not their personalities. For fully fledge AIs, they never seemed to question their purpose.

That could be related though; in other words the only Reapers allowed to maintain their own personalities are the ones that agree with the purpose of the cycle. It's possible other Reapers that were anti-cycle are completely dominated by the Catalyst and are essentially walking avatars for him, similar to how the Reapers eventually control Grayson completely in the books right down to the words that come out of his mouth.

But if that's true then that would imply that the Catalyst itself is indoctrinating the Reapers. Who's to say that the Shepard AI won't eventually do the same to EDI and the geth? A Shepard who destroys the heretics over rewrite will still use the Reapers as tools in Control, so I don't see how Shepard's previous personality has any bearing over what it decides to do with the AIs in its thrall.

[CronoDragoon]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
But if that's true then that would imply that the Catalyst itself is indoctrinating the Reapers. Who's to say that the Shepard AI won't eventually do the same to EDI and the geth? A Shepard who destroys the heretics over rewrite will still use the Reapers as tools in Control, so I don't see how Shepard's previous personality has any bearing over what it decides to do with the AIs in its thrall.

I doubt the Shepard-AI sees the Reapers and geth/EDI together as "AI". More likely they are separated at the least by the "ally" and "enemy" distinction, and considering some choose Control specifically so the geth/EDI can continue to live and develop, the Shepard-AI could just as easily see dominating their minds as against one of its directives as for one of its directives. Obviously if you don't feel comfortable that the Shepard-AI is programmed thoroughly enough to prevent this then it's a valid reason for not choosing Control, but since assumptions are kinda all we have, it's just as valid for Control people to assume that Shepard's morals have been converted into code accurately.

There is also the matter that Shepard-AI has a specific advantage that the Catalyst never had, which is that if Shepard's morals are converted into code, then his ability to take advice from others and listen to alternate points of view has also been codified. Therefore Shepard-AI could be seem as much more flexible than the Catalyst. This leads to one of my favorite headcanons, which is that Shepard-AI has at some point scanned the minds of those whose "trust" has been programmed into him, and developed AIs accordingly which he then uploads into Reapers. Thus when the organic/synthetic peeps die, he'll still have Reapers that provide the alternate points of view he values.

Of course, if you are a Renegade then perhaps that is more of an issue.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 mars 2013 - 03:12 .

[Calamity]

TheWill wrote...

id sacrifice all humans to end the reapers.. any race for that matter.. in a way your showing just how much you value them... besides the geth sided with the reapers as it was preferable to extinction... i dont like that... its the free will thing i dont like.. now they have souls.. its time to take them away... but their sacrifice will never be forgotten.. hopefuly

This. I am actually ok with sacrificing any race as well as myself for the end to the reaper threat. I dont think the cycle will continue like the brat says. I would have like a varying degree of win though since they go the other way into almost total annihilation. I would have like to see one choice being total win.

[Slayer299]

Xilizhra wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

@Xilizhra - exactly what "billions" are you talking about? The Geth, (Who as stated before are a necessary loss to defeat the Reapers) or the Reapers themselves?

And the "overfocus on one goal" is the point for many in the first place, that this is to stop the Reapers, and Destroy fits quite nicely with that. I don't understand your reasoning that Synthesis/Control are somehow superior because there is no 'sacrifice' of anyone to defeat the Reapers.

Actually, both. And all three choices stop the actual cycle.

I can understand the Geth, even if they are a networked society rather than individuals, but the Reapers are just giant, walking squids of destruction, whatever race they were made out of stopped existing once they were goo-ified into the Reaper-ship construct. 

Yes, they do, its a matter of what is acceptable to that Shepard to make one of those three work to end the Cycle. 

[Pakundo]

So...
How about a 5th ending?

[Kaorunandrak]

Xilizhra wrote...

Edit: Also, I am mainly just having a little fun at your expense. I don't care what choice you made, be it any of the three. It was your game, your experience, your time. Whatever choice you made for your Shepard was the right one. You should realize that if you want others to see your point of view concerning Control, you should stop being so judgmental and self-righteous about their decision. It makes you look petty and small minded. You can't condemn other people for sacrificing for the greater good, then pat yourself on the back for doing the same. You can't have it both ways.

I have no illusions about the odds of anyone seeing my point. Also, what I'm mostly talking about isn't about sacrifice so much as it is how it seems, to me, that the Destroy side is overfocused on one goal and finds killing billions to be an acceptable sacrifice because of that specifically.

And the point that most people are trying to get at is that you aren't killing anything with destroy they are machines.... it's two differing viewpoints you see them as alive most people see them as walking talking appliances.

Sorry but I really can't belive this chat is still going on rofl.