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The writers of ME3 should have killed their darlings


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#26
AlanC9

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Arcian wrote...

I've only heard that they sabotaged the Keeper signal, preventing Sovereign from opening the Citadel Relay remotely.


Sure, but you heard that from Vigil, who had no way of knowing what actually happened on the Citadel. All Vigil knew is that the Reapers hadn't invaded yet, and Saren was trying to get to the Citadel to fix that. The rest was conjecture.

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 mars 2013 - 09:40 .


#27
AlanC9

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CronoDragoon wrote...

There's also the case of why the Catalyst can't do it. Vigil's file would have had to accidentally corrupt the Catalyst's ability to control the relays, since the protheans didn't know about him. Which in turn raises the question of whether or not the Catalyst can control anything on the Citadel, and if not, why he can't control something that he built and is a part of him UGGGGGH.


Yeah, that's exactly why I prefer the prothean scientists to Vigil's file.

#28
corporal doody

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AlanC9 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I've only heard that they sabotaged the Keeper signal, preventing Sovereign from opening the Citadel Relay remotely.


Sure, but you heard that from Vigil, who had no way of knowing what actually happened on the Citadel. All Vigil knew is that the Reapers hadn't invaded yet, and Saren was trying to get to the Citadel to fix that.


Vigil also said that the scientist must have SUCCEEDED.....Shepard being on Ilos was proof the Reapers had not taken over the Citadel yet....and that their leaving the beacons on would reach someone.

 

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 mars 2013 - 10:01 .


#29
SpamBot2000

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The important thing to remember is that there is no Catalyst... until Casey Hudson plays DE:HR and comes across Eliza. That right there is THE problem.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 08 mars 2013 - 09:46 .


#30
Guest_Arcian_*

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SpamBot2000 wrote...

The important thing to remember is that there is no Catalyst... until Casey Hudson plays DE:HR and comes across Eliza. That right there is THE problem.

Or Helios from the original and Invisible War. Or the Architect from the Matrix.

#31
Jaulen

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Enjoyed reading the OPs post.

nicely reasoned.

#32
NT121784

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I thought the reason they didn't shut down the network was because of the prothean trapdoor program from me1. Also, since the Normandy has the reaper iff, even if the network had been locked, they might be able to get through, unlock the network, then start the attack. Whci actually woulda worked awesome.

#33
Lilunebrium

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Posted Image

Well said, well formed, well received.
Didn't find a single point I did not agree with. 
Truly wonderful job, Arcian.

Reorte wrote...
...but there is an awful lot of "we want this to happen because we've read somewhere that following this tick list achieves this emotional response and we couldn't care less whether or not it makes any sense or not" in ME3.

My biggest, biggest issue with Mass Effect 3 summed up right there.

Modifié par Lilunebrium, 08 mars 2013 - 09:57 .


#34
Village_Idiot

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NT121784 wrote...

I thought the reason they didn't shut down the network was because of the prothean trapdoor program from me1. Also, since the Normandy has the reaper iff, even if the network had been locked, they might be able to get through, unlock the network, then start the attack. Whci actually woulda worked awesome.


I'm actually currently reading a slightly-AU fanfic which uses this as a plot device. The Citadel is taken earlier on in the conflict, but the IFF allows ships to still use the relays.  

#35
shadey

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SYNTHESIS
What happens: Shepard jumps into the Crucible beam to bridge the proverbial gap between organics and synthetics through what is presumed to be nanoscopic cybernetics of some sort.
The issue: Besides being, frankly put, scientific nonsense, Synthesis also presupposes that a lasting peace between organics and synthetics is, 1) Impossible without cybernetics and software, and 2) requires cybernetics and software. Logically, peace would be achieved through societal changes and diplomacy... like we saw at the end of the Rannoch arc.


it isn't nonsense, it's science fiction, just because nothing exists today to explain it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Travelling faster than the speed of light is also "scientific nonsense" at present, doesn't mean it isn't used in every space sim game

nothing about the biotic powers make "sense" either

laser guns don't make sense because the power required to emit a beam that strong couldn't fit into a portable gun

some of you can never accept any ending because you expect a 2 hour explanation on every single facet, 

Modifié par shadey, 08 mars 2013 - 10:00 .


#36
Village_Idiot

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shadey wrote...
it isn't nonsense, it's science fiction, just because nothing exists today to explain it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Travelling faster than the speed of light is also "scientific nonsense" at present, doesn't mean it isn't used in every space sim game

nothing about the biotic powers make "sense" either

some of you can never accept any ending because you expect a 2 hour explanation on every single facet, 


The science isn't the crux of OP's post. Read it again.

#37
SpamBot2000

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Arcian wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

The important thing to remember is that there is no Catalyst... until Casey Hudson plays DE:HR and comes across Eliza. That right there is THE problem.

Or Helios from the original and Invisible War. Or the Architect from the Matrix.


Well, obviously there are similarities. But the timeline is clearly as follows:

Summer 2011: Hudson gives interviews talking about how "we are nothing" to the Reapers who use us "to procreate".

August 2011: DE:HR released. Hudson keeps tweeting about how awesome it is.

Fall 2011: ME3 ending written by Hudson and Walters, excluding the writing team.

There is the big inspiration. "Hey, I just thought of a spectral personification of an AI, giving you these ending options in a 'decision chamber'!" "U so good, mang!"

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 08 mars 2013 - 10:07 .


#38
Skullheart

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You know, somehow this thread reminds me the Mind Game from Ender's Game.

This is a quote from the wikia:

In the game, there was a giant who asked the player to drink from one of the two cups in front of him. He said that if they won, he would take them to Fairyland. Normally, one could never get past this part, as both drinks would always kill the player, but Ender Wiggin, instead of choosing between the two drinks, killed the giant by having his character burrow into the giant's eye. As the giant's corpse fell to the ground, Ender's character found himself in the very same Fairyland that the giant had promised him.


That's the problem with the endings in me3, pre and post EC. The option to oppose the Giant (the catalyst in this case) leads to death too. We can take our own destiny, instead we had to accept one of the horrible drinks. Things are always ending under the starbrat terms, not Shepard's.

For me, the perfect ending should be:
Calibrate the Crucible to destroy the catalyst. After the destruction of the catalyst the reapers are free from its control, every reaper has the collective conscience from the species they were made off. This give us two options:

- Destroy the Reapers. Without the cordination of the Catalyst they are confuse, most of their systems depended in the catalyst to work properly.

- Pardon them. Give them a second chance. they are no longer following the Catalyst intentions. With this path they leave the galaxy after helping with the reconstruction. They travell to another galaxies, accompanied by organics who voluntered to go with the, hoping to stop the tech singularity that happened in the milky way.

#39
WardyLion

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An excellently-written dissection of the endings there, OP - I applaud you!

#40
lyssalu

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a+

#41
Yeulia

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great post! definitely a fun read (once I actually sat down to read it haha)!

#42
Guest_Gangnam Style_*

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you know i think at this point bioware gets that the majority of the fanbase hates the ending. we don't need a billion threads telling them why the suck. because i'm sure they get it now.

#43
Applepie_Svk

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Nice article OP...

#44
CronoDragoon

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Gangnam Style wrote...

you know i think at this point bioware gets that the majority of the fanbase hates the ending. we don't need a billion threads telling them why the suck. because i'm sure they get it now.


We don't need a billion threads about why the endings suck devoid of puncuation or reasoned argument. This thread is measured criticism and is therefore useful.

#45
SpamBot2000

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Gangnam Style wrote...

you know i think at this point bioware gets that the majority of the fanbase hates the ending. we don't need a billion threads telling them why the suck. because i'm sure they get it now.


Just read the latest Mac Walters interview, and behold the "getting it". 

We may need an Extended BSN to get through.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 08 mars 2013 - 10:44 .


#46
Bayonet Hipshot

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Nice post mate.. Very well done reasoning..

#47
goose2989

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This was a very well-written thread on some of the issues with the ending, and how they could have been addressed. Considering the issues you bring up, I completely agree with you.

As an aspiring writer myself, I know how difficult it can be to remove story elements that you become personally attached to. Spending four years in college to learn to write, the most important thing I've learned is to have objective reviewers to look for your personal attachments, "darlings" as you call them. The greatest writers in the world are still brought down on a daily basis because of their own damn egos.

Nicely done, Arcian

#48
goose2989

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Gangnam Style wrote...

you know i think at this point bioware gets that the majority of the fanbase hates the ending. we don't need a billion threads telling them why the suck. because i'm sure they get it now.


True, but it is important that BioWare realizes how much it still lingers. If the outcry over the ending only lasted, let's say two or three months after the game's release, BioWare could easily shrug it off. 

I don't want to constantly badger and harass BioWare, but keeping the issue in discussion is important to me.

#49
cbutz

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Skullheart wrote...

For me, the perfect ending should be:
Calibrate the Crucible to destroy the catalyst. After the destruction of the catalyst the reapers are free from its control, every reaper has the collective conscience from the species they were made off. This give us two options:

- Destroy the Reapers. Without the cordination of the Catalyst they are confuse, most of their systems depended in the catalyst to work properly.

- Pardon them. Give them a second chance. they are no longer following the Catalyst intentions. With this path they leave the galaxy after helping with the reconstruction. They travell to another galaxies, accompanied by organics who voluntered to go with the, hoping to stop the tech singularity that happened in the milky way.


+1000
I was actually thinking that is how refuse  should have worked, although it would require EDI and the Geth to overload the crucible and killing the Catalyst, without the coordination of the Catalyst the reapers eventually fall, possibly there is a Reaper Civil War, because each reaper is a nation and nations historically do not get along. Although I think I like yours better because it is simpler and can be executed better and quicker.


To the OP,
I like your analysis and suggestions. Unfortunately it may be a year too late, as I doubt any of the devs will be looking through here, and even if they were there is little to no chance any fo the endings will be altered  or added...

But it may help them understand the necessity of killing their darling, which I hope they learned but I fear they did not, see Ray's interview on the ending as one example.

#50
Galbrant

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Well said OP.