170 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

OP is why I feel the entire trilogy is nothing more than a coma dream of a Category 6 Merc boss Shepard.

[DiebytheSword]

Well said Arcian, this pretty much echoes my problems with the endings.

[noxpanda]

Very well written and well reasoned OP, i agree.

[AlanC9]

corporal doody wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I've only heard that they sabotaged the Keeper signal, preventing Sovereign from opening the Citadel Relay remotely.

Sure, but you heard that from Vigil, who had no way of knowing what actually happened on the Citadel. All Vigil knew is that the Reapers hadn't invaded yet, and Saren was trying to get to the Citadel to fix that.

Vigil also said that the scientist must have SUCCEEDED.....Shepard being on Ilos was proof the Reapers had not taken over the Citadel yet....and that their leaving the beacons on would reach someone.

Sure, but Vigil only knows that the signal should have been sent because Saren's come through. Otherwise the Reaper plan could have been proceeding perfectly on schedule; Vigil had no way of knowing when the signal should have been sent. 

[Ownedbacon]

Excellent post! I do believe the writers were so focused, even obsessed with making their pet ideas work despite what effect it would have on the plot. Sadly it was at great expense to many parts of the established lore. The result is a final game in a trilogy that is rendered mostly incompatible with its predecessors.

[Reaver102]

I'm not so sure it had to do anything with the writers getting full of themselves and pushing it out, I always felt the ending was just rushed and the peer review was cut to get the game out as fast as possible to meet the deadline.  I think if it hadnt been for the deadline the me3 endings would have been a lot better.

[GreatBlueHeron]

Good post, OP.

[NeonFlux117]

Hudson and Walters wrote the endings and locked the other writers out. I can almost guarantee that Hudson had nothing to do with writing the new DLC. Why you ask? Because it was quality and not metaphysical and didn't have a stick up it's ass.

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 09 mars 2013 - 12:34 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Arcian wrote...

SUMMARY[/b]
Writers, both professional like the people at BioWare and amateurs like myself, can become so attached to ideas we like that we fail to see how badly those ideas will mesh with the rest of our writing. Our attachment also prevents us from objectively scrutinizing our own work or allowing others to scrutinize the ideas for us. To produce good writing, we have to kill our darlings - our best ideas.

Have to agree with all your points, and yet I would add some of mine...

Leviathans gave to intelligence task to preserve life for all costs, what does it mean ?  The price of life itself is infinite as much the size of space which is also infinite, life is everywhere within or behind the corners of our galaxy but Catalyst failed to realized a real magnitude of its task because just the task itself is flawed ergo its flawed logic is trying solve an infinite problem by the circular logic. And by circular logic, he isn´t solving anything but keeps to reseting that same cycle.

Catalyst said that synthetics will destroy all organics, which is fallacy -

1. The problem is described only in one dimension ergo if you add the time and size of space, you´ve managed to change 1 dimensional problem into infinite one.

2. No matter the choice, the organic life will evolve once again in distant future, we know that the organic evolution by itself is just a miracle of life and nature... while synthetics are created with purpose by organics, organics just pop up on some planet and cycle of life has began.

Catalyst applying his absolute rule to one galaxy but how can you apply something in absolute just for one place ?

It´s like saying that this restaurant has to kept the rules in check, while the other one doesn´t need to... it´s flawed.

Is he saying that just this galaxy is wicked place ? The place of conflict betwen the organics and synthetics ? What if the conflict itself is nothing more then lie created by Catalyst the mad AI ? If he is failing to see that his agenda made an infinite problem how can be sure that this problem even exists ?

And how about a little bit of self reflection ?

Just two last cycles it was about Zha´Til and Geth which were used by Reapers with purpose of canon fodder in war against the organics and start of harvest. While Zha´til were symbiotics turned into monsters, Geth were divided into two factions which one waged in war against organics as support for Sovereign.


According to Leviathans, we know that they´ve made a n intelligence just to stop the synthetics of lesser species with killing of own creators. Let´s asume that there was never conflict betwen the organics and synthetics, but betwen the thralls of Leviathans and the synthetics which couldn´t be controlled by Leviathans themselves.

The reason behind this madness, wasn´t to stop a war betwen the synthetics and organics, but to stop a synthetics from possibility of killing all organics in this sandwhitch
[synthetics which recognized that their creators are controlled - thralls of Leviathans - laughing Leviathans lurking in shadows observing the conflict watching their thralls being wiped out] ergo by killing the last of lesser species would sooner or later synthetics found the Leviathans.

just a speculation...

Leviathans pressented themselves even after their obvious error and stupidity as the "apex race", yet they said that despite the treason of intelligence, intelligence still serve its purpose. If this was in case, then it would made a sense that Catalyst recognized a Leviathans as a main threat because they were actaully source why the lesser species and synthetics could fight.

How could be Catalyst still serving its purpose if it wants kills its creators, unless the purpose wasn´t to solve the problem but kept in check the lesser organics from making a synthetics, hovewer **** happened and even after eons is AI recognizing its creators as a threat. And this threat has to be stopped, which is hilarious because actual AI which is playin for judge dred is supposed to stop the conflict and not to become a part of conflict itself.

But let´s look on the other side, the AI is working with a premise that the conflict is inevitable, ergo its minions could use any kind of weapon at start of harvest, even if it means to bring back the old or start new conflict betwen the organics and synthetics of cycle.


If Catalyst is trying to tell me that by choosing synthesis or control we will bring eternal peace, he is simply wrong... what about the life behind the corners of our Galaxy ? What if a galaxies in our neighbourhood, according to his logic are already conquered by synthetics or organics, which want to expand into the Milky way ? What happen if in next 1 billion years will evolve new organic life within the Milky way... what then ? Are we going to make another Crucible to rape newbies or what ?

Insane logic caused this mess, writing is simply so bad that writers thru their creation didn´t realized how big problem they have created.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 09 mars 2013 - 03:07 .

[Dalael81]

You talk about the crucible being a IWIN gun with laser precision, and what I found stupid was it was exactly that, I found a device that gave it laser precision of every Reaper location, so for it to just kill everything synthetic didn't make a damn bit of sense.

[WarGriffin]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Arcian wrote...

SUMMARY[/b]
Writers, both professional like the people at BioWare and amateurs like myself, can become so attached to ideas we like that we fail to see how badly those ideas will mesh with the rest of our writing. Our attachment also prevents us from objectively scrutinizing our own work or allowing others to scrutinize the ideas for us. To produce good writing, we have to kill our darlings - our best ideas.

Have to agree with all your points, and yet I would add some of mine...

snip

I bet the Catalyst would suffer a fatal error if confronted wuith a force like the Tyranids or the Zerg
Both represent the extreme other end in Pure Organic evolution fueld by the singular desire to consume and evolve and would have swarmed the Reapers in a matter of months.

Modifié par WarGriffin, 09 mars 2013 - 02:36 .

[thedancingdruid]

A very intelligent post, thank you OP. I clicked the thread because of "their darlings" thinking it was about Miranda and Liara for some reason. I just finished ME2 and it was very difficult to kill off Miranda, but I was role-playing a character that is still Alliance loyal and didn't want to establish a relationship with Cerberus. Anyway, I'm very glad I clicked. Thanks.

[Col.Aurion]

Agrees

[What a Succulent Ass]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Hudson and Walters wrote the endings and locked the other writers out. I can almost guarantee that Hudson had nothing to do with writing the new DLC. Why you ask? Because it was quality and not metaphysical and didn't have a stick up it's ass.

I'm really curious as to what people are deeming "quality" in their haste to demonise Hudson and Walters. Is it "quality" because it was utter pandering? Because surely you aren't taking a piece of meta fan service as an indication of writing ability.

If we are going to take the last DLC at face value rather than as a tongue-in-cheek send-off, then it's the sh*ttiest piece of writing in the series.

[Applepie_Svk]

WarGriffin wrote...

I bet the Catalyst would suffer a fatal error if confronted wuith a force like the Tyranids or the Zerg
Both represent the extreme other end in Pure Organic evolution fueld by the singular desire to consume and evolve and would have swarmed the Reapers in a matter of months.

That´s another fallacy, that synthesis is a final level in evolution of life... it´s just beyond the redemption. Darwin or the other great thinkers would rather jumped out of window...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 09 mars 2013 - 02:58 .

[Tron Mega]

Mumba1511 wrote...

I'm sorry. I was too busy looking at your profile pic, what did the OP say?

this.

[Col.Aurion]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

WarGriffin wrote...

I bet the Catalyst would suffer a fatal error if confronted wuith a force like the Tyranids or the Zerg
Both represent the extreme other end in Pure Organic evolution fueld by the singular desire to consume and evolve and would have swarmed the Reapers in a matter of months.

That´s another fallacy, that synthesis is a final evolution of life... it´s just beyond the redemption.

Agreed, Synthesis is a joke and a load of bull.

[Gamer790]

Wonderfully put Arcian. I agree on all points. I only wish I was as good at contextualizing my thoughts and communicating them as you are.

[HooblaDGN]

You can't kill all of your darlings, but the ending definitely should have been killed. Their other darling, Kai Leng, was pretty terrible as it was, but we would have forgotten him if the even worse Catalyst had been removed.

[Masha Potato]

lyssalu wrote...

a+

[Daryslash]

Well done, OP.

The fans are not kidding when they say the ending is a big MESS.

[WarGriffin]

Col.Aurion wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

WarGriffin wrote...

I bet the Catalyst would suffer a fatal error if confronted wuith a force like the Tyranids or the Zerg
Both represent the extreme other end in Pure Organic evolution fueld by the singular desire to consume and evolve and would have swarmed the Reapers in a matter of months.

That´s another fallacy, that synthesis is a final evolution of life... it´s just beyond the redemption.

Agreed, Synthesis is a joke and a load of bull.

Yeah the Star Kid didn't help his case when he started with an oxymoron.

There is no such thing as final Evolution, Since The theory states, species must always adapt to thier enviroment since the enviroment is gradually and constantly changing, Species must always graudually and constantly adapt.

Granted synthesis has nothing to do with Evolution, It's all about connect the galalxy into a unified whole race, cause... IDK Maybe they didn't think there was gonna be a 4.

[Mavaras]

Arcian wrote...

SUMMARY
Writers, both professional like the people at BioWare and amateurs like myself, can become so attached to ideas we like that we fail to see how badly those ideas will mesh with the rest of our writing. Our attachment also prevents us from objectively scrutinizing our own work or allowing others to scrutinize the ideas for us. To produce good writing, we have to kill our darlings - our best ideas.

I hope the writers at Montreal will stay aware of this and do their best to scrutinize their own work and get rid of the ideas they love the most that will cause the most problems in the plot.

The theme of your post reminded me of some of Stephen King's statements regarding his conclusion to the Dark Tower series; especially your syntactical use of "killing their darlings." I have this creeping suspicion that you are serving the beam or are a really big fan of Faulkner.

Modifié par Mavaras, 09 mars 2013 - 07:24 .

[idunhavaname]

Only scan read it as I was too lazy but it was very observant from what I gathered.

In my opinion Destroy option would have been perfect if either EDI survived or only targets reapers. The whole "destroys all synthethic" deal in my opinion was a rushed topping to avoid being a cliche (which ironically is).

The general idea of preserving life as a reaper form was decent but execution and presentation of that idea failed.

Synthesis on the other hand is just the most absurd thing I have ever heard of regardless of explanation.

Modifié par idunhavaname, 09 mars 2013 - 07:33 .

[AshenShug4r]

That was a good read Thanks for typing that up. Just goes to show you shouldn't let your ego control you.