169 réponses à ce sujet

[ruggly]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

And damn anyone who reads this thread to hours upon hours of tvtrope surfing?

I'd never be so evil.

I've resisted the temptation so far...I'll never fall for it!

[Reikilea]

ZLurps wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

Well I can only pick destroy. Synthesis is forced crap to get Joker laid. Control is way to risky. And I wanted to get rid of the reapers.

Destroy is a great option. I fully support this option. And to the "genocide" and edi. I always took it as - you are destroying reapers so you destroy everything reaper. That means geth enhanced by reaper code and Edi made from reaper parts. No synthetic organic crap. Just getting rid of the reapers.

The issue is that there's no logical reason for the geth and EDI to die. Neither use Reaper code for their basic "life functions". The geth use it to increase their intelligence and EDI uses it for her anti-Reaper cyberwarfare suites.

That's the problem with Destroy. If the writing made sense, EDI and the geth wouldn't die. And if they didn't, there would be no incentive to pick Control or Synthesis.

Or alternatively, every platform that can run "synthetic life" would be destroyed, meaning everything from Ships to Quarian suits.

The problem with Destroy from science point of view is that it doesn't make any more sense than Synthesis.

Well It makes sense if you only target technology created or enhanced by reapers. That´s why it makes sense if relays are gone too in Destroy and Normandy equipped with reapers tech gets it too. Geth use the code now, they I know they didnt need it before, but the code changed them (the way they operate a live) and they are using it Now - the moment Shepard pushes the red button. Edi too. I´m not really broken hearted over Edi, I loathed that character. (not what edi represents, only the way it was done. ) And of course I´ll miss geth. But this is just war. Things like this happen.

It may be the fact that reaper tech couldnt be erased form Edi´s or Geth current state. So the destroy option could have targeted the whole being.

If I think about it like this it makes more sense to me. I thought if catalyst has power to magically change whole life into organics/synthetics synthesis, targetting reaper technology and destroying it makes sense too.  Or that´s how it should be.

No it doesn't, unless you take space magic approach to things. My point though was that since OP mentioned Synthesis being scientific nonsense, Destroy shouldn't get free pass either, because it's just variant of Synthesis space magic.

If you take space magic approach, it's bit here and there even then. Some Quarian on Rannoch decided to back up Geth uploaded to envirosuit on their equivalent of our blu-ray disc, any sort of optical media. Now Reaper beam appears, what it's going to do? Magically fry that optical disc? So after the beam Quarian notices that suit isn't functioning like before, notices Geth software is non-functional and restores back up, Geth perceives events like one minute memory loss.

Ultimately, software is an idea. To destroy it you need to destroy it's creators, which gets us back in square one.

Well I suppose we can´t go anywhere but consider what crucible does is a bit like space magic. As everything was about deus ex machina here. I did not say synthesis is scientific nonsense, I just don´t like the fact whole issue was forced. I think if the galaxy is supposed to become like that they will arive to that point. Without reapers. Naturally.

And quarians are organic. If geth uploaded themselves into their suits, it may only damage the suit. And as I believe they should be that good mechanics, they will repair the suit they wore for centuries without a problem - before the exposure gets to them. Their suit may stop working for a while, but they at least will still be inside. But the geth and edi. Them and reaper tech is way too interwiened. And they are software, they are machine. (I know i know they are alive) And if somethign happens to that, its possible their whole being gets damaged. You may bring it back again, but if the main part is missing it wont be the same.

And you know lets look at at from the bioware famous plot point. They had to add something sacrificing/bad sounding to destroy, otherwise everyone woudl pick it. So they made all choices "equal". Each one is - in order to archieve something you need to sacrifice something.

[Legbiter]

I've always had the impression that behind every Bioware release there's a fairly large mass grave of dev darlings who were taken out back and shot in the head before being bulldozed over.

[Legbiter]

Arcian wrote...

Sure, but ME3's mass grave should have been a wee bit bigger and included the darlings of the people in charge of the endings.

Well, the original ending was given concrete boots before a swimming lesson with the EC IMO. And the Citadel DLC is a fairly good note to end the trilogy on.

[MetioricTest]

The ending still makes me sad

[ZLurps]

Reikilea wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

Well I can only pick destroy. Synthesis is forced crap to get Joker laid. Control is way to risky. And I wanted to get rid of the reapers.

Destroy is a great option. I fully support this option. And to the "genocide" and edi. I always took it as - you are destroying reapers so you destroy everything reaper. That means geth enhanced by reaper code and Edi made from reaper parts. No synthetic organic crap. Just getting rid of the reapers.

The issue is that there's no logical reason for the geth and EDI to die. Neither use Reaper code for their basic "life functions". The geth use it to increase their intelligence and EDI uses it for her anti-Reaper cyberwarfare suites.

That's the problem with Destroy. If the writing made sense, EDI and the geth wouldn't die. And if they didn't, there would be no incentive to pick Control or Synthesis.

Or alternatively, every platform that can run "synthetic life" would be destroyed, meaning everything from Ships to Quarian suits.

The problem with Destroy from science point of view is that it doesn't make any more sense than Synthesis.

Well It makes sense if you only target technology created or enhanced by reapers. That´s why it makes sense if relays are gone too in Destroy and Normandy equipped with reapers tech gets it too. Geth use the code now, they I know they didnt need it before, but the code changed them (the way they operate a live) and they are using it Now - the moment Shepard pushes the red button. Edi too. I´m not really broken hearted over Edi, I loathed that character. (not what edi represents, only the way it was done. ) And of course I´ll miss geth. But this is just war. Things like this happen.

It may be the fact that reaper tech couldnt be erased form Edi´s or Geth current state. So the destroy option could have targeted the whole being.

If I think about it like this it makes more sense to me. I thought if catalyst has power to magically change whole life into organics/synthetics synthesis, targetting reaper technology and destroying it makes sense too.  Or that´s how it should be.

No it doesn't, unless you take space magic approach to things. My point though was that since OP mentioned Synthesis being scientific nonsense, Destroy shouldn't get free pass either, because it's just variant of Synthesis space magic.

If you take space magic approach, it's bit here and there even then. Some Quarian on Rannoch decided to back up Geth uploaded to envirosuit on their equivalent of our blu-ray disc, any sort of optical media. Now Reaper beam appears, what it's going to do? Magically fry that optical disc? So after the beam Quarian notices that suit isn't functioning like before, notices Geth software is non-functional and restores back up, Geth perceives events like one minute memory loss.

Ultimately, software is an idea. To destroy it you need to destroy it's creators, which gets us back in square one.

Well I suppose we can´t go anywhere but consider what crucible does is a bit like space magic. As everything was about deus ex machina here. I did not say synthesis is scientific nonsense, I just don´t like the fact whole issue was forced. I think if the galaxy is supposed to become like that they will arive to that point. Without reapers. Naturally.

And quarians are organic. If geth uploaded themselves into their suits, it may only damage the suit. And as I believe they should be that good mechanics, they will repair the suit they wore for centuries without a problem - before the exposure gets to them. Their suit may stop working for a while, but they at least will still be inside. But the geth and edi. Them and reaper tech is way too interwiened. And they are software, they are machine. (I know i know they are alive) And if somethign happens to that, its possible their whole being gets damaged. You may bring it back again, but if the main part is missing it wont be the same.

And you know lets look at at from the bioware famous plot point. They had to add something sacrificing/bad sounding to destroy, otherwise everyone woudl pick it. So they made all choices "equal". Each one is - in order to archieve something you need to sacrifice something.

We are talking so far past each others points that there isn't any reason to continue this. No offence.

[ScriptBabe]

just.a.dude wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

The designers laid in the problem quickly and elegantly -- Reapers. We had a personified villain in the first game. Things got a bit wobbly in the second, and the third instead of being faced with Harbinger -- the ultimate Reaper we had TIM as a stand in villain. Then at the very end we are presented with a new antagonist in the form of the Catalyst. It was whiplash, and because it came out of nowhere people were frustrated and disoriented. The Crucible was also never hinted at in the earlier games which made it feel like Deus ex machina. The theme of Mass Effect was unity through diversity. That should have been the ultimate solution. The writers even suggested as much in some of Javik's dialog. The Protheans failed because they were conquerors. There was no grand alliance.

Overall though there is much to praise in this franchise. They failed to stick the landing, but they gave us a great ride on the way.

You really sum it up nicely. The sad thing is that if it had been establish that the starchild that shepard sees is a representation of Harbinger it becomes much cleaner. Maybe the "So be it." is supposed to hint at that.

In the story I wrote (crazy, I know, but that's how much I had invested in this game) I posit that the Catalyst is Harbinger being the Father of Lies as it were.  I have EDI say as much to Shepard.  I was so saddened at the ending, that I just had to offer a different conclusion, and use an event from game one which would have worked perfectly in game three -- Chorban and scanning the keepers.  I didn't spend a ton of time crafting this alternate solution -- I have paying work, but I looked at what was available in game one and built from there.

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 09 mars 2013 - 10:38 .

[chemiclord]

AlanC9 wrote...

I would locate the problem in a slightly different place. Bio carefully set up their universe so AIs would be killable (they've never liked what raising the dead (easily!) can do to plots; even when they were playing in the FR they would just ignore or handwave resurrection.) Shut down the blue box and the AI is dead even if you can reactivate a different AI on that equipment later. That would have worked fine in Destroy. The problem is that the geth were established as not working like Citadel AIs.

Also note that while letting the geth live would have made the balance between the endings even worse than it is, Destroy could have been rebalanced around the issue of relay repairs. AIs don't die, but the relays won't be repaired for hundreds of years. Tali doesn't live to see Rannoch again. The turians and quarians stay in Sol system living off the liveships (unless the quarians are dead in which case the turians just starve). And so forth. I think this was Ieldra2's suggestion a few months back.

And I think you're hitting on the problem in a roundabout way.

Story elements AREN'T game mechanics.  They aren't something that can be "balanced."  They have to flow logically between a start and an end point.  The "moral choice" argument only REALLY works when the options you are given all have a defensible position either logically, morally, or emotionally (they tend to play the heart and the mind against each other for that reason).

When you start feeling the need to "balance" the options, you've already failed, because any "balances" you have to make will have a tendency to strain the narrative flow you've already established.

[SomeKindaEnigma]

It's nice to see a well thought-out anti-ending post for once. Legitimate thought process and reasoning, no whining. And I think you made great points.

[L_B_123]

It seems to me like Bioware simply got bored with the trilogy they created an so it was rushed with little to no care, I mean after Rannoch the game quality nosedived. Tuchanca was amazing and then it went bad. It was the same with dlc . Leviathan was good I thought, omega was average at best and citidal by all reports is fantastic- downloading it next week so I can't judge for myself

[Reikilea]

ZLurps wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

Well I can only pick destroy. Synthesis is forced crap to get Joker laid. Control is way to risky. And I wanted to get rid of the reapers.

Destroy is a great option. I fully support this option. And to the "genocide" and edi. I always took it as - you are destroying reapers so you destroy everything reaper. That means geth enhanced by reaper code and Edi made from reaper parts. No synthetic organic crap. Just getting rid of the reapers.

The issue is that there's no logical reason for the geth and EDI to die. Neither use Reaper code for their basic "life functions". The geth use it to increase their intelligence and EDI uses it for her anti-Reaper cyberwarfare suites.

That's the problem with Destroy. If the writing made sense, EDI and the geth wouldn't die. And if they didn't, there would be no incentive to pick Control or Synthesis.

Or alternatively, every platform that can run "synthetic life" would be destroyed, meaning everything from Ships to Quarian suits.

The problem with Destroy from science point of view is that it doesn't make any more sense than Synthesis.

Well It makes sense if you only target technology created or enhanced by reapers. That´s why it makes sense if relays are gone too in Destroy and Normandy equipped with reapers tech gets it too. Geth use the code now, they I know they didnt need it before, but the code changed them (the way they operate a live) and they are using it Now - the moment Shepard pushes the red button. Edi too. I´m not really broken hearted over Edi, I loathed that character. (not what edi represents, only the way it was done. ) And of course I´ll miss geth. But this is just war. Things like this happen.

It may be the fact that reaper tech couldnt be erased form Edi´s or Geth current state. So the destroy option could have targeted the whole being.

If I think about it like this it makes more sense to me. I thought if catalyst has power to magically change whole life into organics/synthetics synthesis, targetting reaper technology and destroying it makes sense too.  Or that´s how it should be.

No it doesn't, unless you take space magic approach to things. My point though was that since OP mentioned Synthesis being scientific nonsense, Destroy shouldn't get free pass either, because it's just variant of Synthesis space magic.

If you take space magic approach, it's bit here and there even then. Some Quarian on Rannoch decided to back up Geth uploaded to envirosuit on their equivalent of our blu-ray disc, any sort of optical media. Now Reaper beam appears, what it's going to do? Magically fry that optical disc? So after the beam Quarian notices that suit isn't functioning like before, notices Geth software is non-functional and restores back up, Geth perceives events like one minute memory loss.

Ultimately, software is an idea. To destroy it you need to destroy it's creators, which gets us back in square one.

Well I suppose we can´t go anywhere but consider what crucible does is a bit like space magic. As everything was about deus ex machina here. I did not say synthesis is scientific nonsense, I just don´t like the fact whole issue was forced. I think if the galaxy is supposed to become like that they will arive to that point. Without reapers. Naturally.

And quarians are organic. If geth uploaded themselves into their suits, it may only damage the suit. And as I believe they should be that good mechanics, they will repair the suit they wore for centuries without a problem - before the exposure gets to them. Their suit may stop working for a while, but they at least will still be inside. But the geth and edi. Them and reaper tech is way too interwiened. And they are software, they are machine. (I know i know they are alive) And if somethign happens to that, its possible their whole being gets damaged. You may bring it back again, but if the main part is missing it wont be the same.

And you know lets look at at from the bioware famous plot point. They had to add something sacrificing/bad sounding to destroy, otherwise everyone woudl pick it. So they made all choices "equal". Each one is - in order to archieve something you need to sacrifice something.

We are talking so far past each others points that there isn't any reason to continue this. No offence.

I beg to differ. I answered all your qestions and offered the opinion that shows my take on the discussed subject. How is that not talking in others points.

[Gamer790]

L_B_123 wrote...

It seems to me like Bioware simply got bored with the trilogy they created an so it was rushed with little to no care, I mean after Rannoch the game quality nosedived. Tuchanca was amazing and then it went bad. It was the same with dlc . Leviathan was good I thought, omega was average at best and citidal by all reports is fantastic- downloading it next week so I can't judge for myself

I often suspect the exact same.

[ZLurps]

Reikilea wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Reikilea wrote...


Well I suppose we can´t go anywhere but consider what crucible does is a bit like space magic. As everything was about deus ex machina here. I did not say synthesis is scientific nonsense, I just don´t like the fact whole issue was forced. I think if the galaxy is supposed to become like that they will arive to that point. Without reapers. Naturally.

And quarians are organic. If geth uploaded themselves into their suits, it may only damage the suit. And as I believe they should be that good mechanics, they will repair the suit they wore for centuries without a problem - before the exposure gets to them. Their suit may stop working for a while, but they at least will still be inside. But the geth and edi. Them and reaper tech is way too interwiened. And they are software, they are machine. (I know i know they are alive) And if somethign happens to that, its possible their whole being gets damaged. You may bring it back again, but if the main part is missing it wont be the same.

And you know lets look at at from the bioware famous plot point. They had to add something sacrificing/bad sounding to destroy, otherwise everyone woudl pick it. So they made all choices "equal". Each one is - in order to archieve something you need to sacrifice something.

We are talking so far past each others points that there isn't any reason to continue this. No offence.

I beg to differ. I answered all your qestions and offered the opinion that shows my take on the discussed subject. How is that not talking in others points.

Let's review then.

First, I was adressing OP, not your post to begin with, as I wrote:

ZLurps wrote...
My point though was that since OP mentioned Synthesis being scientific nonsense, Destroy shouldn't get free pass either, because it's just variant of Synthesis space magic.

First OP stands Original Poster, meaning person who made first post in topic.
Then Scientifical nonsense means out of ME universe point of view. Your point of view is in-universe.

What comes to in-universe stuff, I played with that a little, but even then I don't see you addressing my point regarding the use of optical media or Quarian equivalent anyway, at all, which was the real point.

ZLurps wrote...
Some Quarian on Rannoch decided to back up Geth uploaded to envirosuit on their equivalent of our blu-ray disc, any sort of optical media. Now Reaper beam appears, what it's going to do? Magically fry that optical disc?

Then what comes to software, I don't see you addressing this point either.

ZLurps wrote...
Ultimately, software is an idea. To destroy it you need to destroy it's creators, which gets us back in square one.

Also, Catalyst doesn't distinct between Reaper code like you think, it says "all synthetic life will be destroyed". So how the whole Reaper code thing applies here is quite a bit here and there.

But whatever, the problem with space magic is that I could write lengty posts about software and hardware and so on but it will never get anywhere because in-universe "space magic" card can always be pulled.

[Mastone]

Legbiter wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Sure, but ME3's mass grave should have been a wee bit bigger and included the darlings of the people in charge of the endings.

Well, the original ending was given concrete boots before a swimming lesson with the EC IMO. And the Citadel DLC is a fairly good note to end the trilogy on.

I watched Citadel DLC on Youtube...it contained everything that made ME3 bad ( an obvious traitor ..brooks, a doppleganger... and a pointless party in the middle of a war being given by anderson who is on earth saying you really need some R& R ---while he is fighting for his survival against the reapers).

ME3 never showed attrocities of war , sure Thane died but he was sick already, Mordin died heroicly or by your doing but he was already onthe end of his biological life.
There was never a point in teh game where garrus got a bullit in the head, hell even Grunt came out alive.
To me ME3 was more like the sims than a war story.

I share a lot of views the OP and other critical thinkers here have shared, but I think they should get rid of people who are in charge of ME development and the story and get someone who canget us back to ME1 quality ( story and choice wise)


edit

Modifié par Mastone, 10 mars 2013 - 10:57 .

[Alien Number Six]

Did not reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. I have killed off all of BioWare's darlings. Except Joker. I want to kill off joker.

[Dalael81]

My biggest gripe with the destroy ending is still that it didn't only target Reapers.

I mean it's like building this sniper rifle to take out your nemesis, adding on a laser precision scope with accuracy up to a mile, but when you pull the trigger, the gun kills everything within 2 miles.

I mean why have something in the game saying the Crucible now has pinpoint accurate location of every reaper in the galaxy, for that to not matter at all?

[DBL_ZA]

Very well-written article and I have to say I support your views. 5 star rating from me.

Also that profile pic is absolutely........ Smashing!!

[BD Manchild]

Dalael81 wrote...

My biggest gripe with the destroy ending is still that it didn't only target Reapers.

I mean it's like building this sniper rifle to take out your nemesis, adding on a laser precision scope with accuracy up to a mile, but when you pull the trigger, the gun kills everything within 2 miles.

I mean why have something in the game saying the Crucible now has pinpoint accurate location of every reaper in the galaxy, for that to not matter at all?

It just goes to show how utterly worthless the whole War Assets system was. It essentially turned all of that effort into a bunch of numbers that didn't change anything in the slightest.

[sammysoso]

Excellent post OP!

I liked how you weren't condescending or insulting too, we have enough of that.

[LPPrince]

Arcian.

I'm gonna drink a beer to this thread's first post. Y'know, later.

Cheers.

[Peranor]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Mumba1511 wrote...

I'm sorry. I was too busy looking at your profile pic, what did the OP say?

That honestly is the BEST profile pic I have ever seen in my entire life. 

The OP said the writers were too attached to certain pet ideas to see how bad they were for the whole of the work.

It is a possibility, but it seems to me they snuck their Deus Ex ABC into the game in secret because they had some idea of how it was going to be received. It would take an entire beach of cocaine to develop the megalomanic tendencies necessary to feel like this rip off torch job was some stroke of genius. 

lol

[Mordanticus]

Count me among those who, even after all this time, am still dissatisfied with the ending.. There is no doubt that Mass Effect, since its beginning, was my favorite IP.. I still can't wrap my head around the ending, even with the extended cut..

Seriously Bioware.. Its not too late to earn an epic place in video game history.. Fix the ending with one last "choice actually matters and hey why not a happy ending option" DLC..

Hold the Line.. For life..