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[ColorsFade]

LOL.... OMG.

Reading this thread was great motivation for me to keep working on my Campaign.

I was a longtime EQ and EQ2 player. I miss EQ2... was such an awesome group gaming experience.

This, however... sounds atrocious.

Long live player made content! Woot!

[MokahTGS]

Truth be told, the game isn't bad from a free to play MMO point of view. The bar is pretty low. The Foundry has so many restrictions of what you can build that most people will hit walls very quickly in anything they design. Even branching quest choices such as choose door a or door b is impossible.

I'm in the process of building a small adventure to get the full scope of what is possible, but NWN2 still remains the gold standard for the best of modding out there. Unfortunately NWO has a much larger audience. It's quite sad. It's similar to how shows like Firefly get canceled and shows like Here Comes Honey Boo Boo gets ratings through the roof.

You can't fix stupid.

[kamal_]

I posted this in the Neverwinter Online Foundry forums, and figured I'd repost it here:

My conclusion, based on my time to make the content versus total amount time people have spent in my content, is that it's not worth it to make content. I released content for another game at the same time as my Neverwinter Online content, it currently has around 1000x the player time as my Neverwinter content. That content has some 70x the number of plays, and is 40x the length, so 1000x the player time is a reasonable assumption, assuming less than a third completed the content (it's for an old game, so the people who still play it like the game a lot obviously, and are likely to actually play the content to completion). While it certainly took longer to make the content, it did not take 1000x the time.

The low play rate is apparently not because my Neverwinter Online content is bad, as the four quest campaign is currently higher rated than the feature quests and the contest winner. Admittedly, I have fewer ratings than the featured quests/contest winners. I had an entry in the beta Foundry contest, which meant my content appeared twice in postings by Cryptic employees as part of the contest in addition to my listing of it in the contest thread, but my contest entry was played once (since the Foundry catalog includes number of plays, that was easy to see).

As near as I can tell from my playing UGC, is that assuming it has a moderate level of polish, what content will become popular is simply random. And once a quest gets ahead of the pack on plays, it becomes a self sustaining leader because people head for the quests with more plays as if it's an indication of quality.

Since I was a Foundry beta author, I went through all the Foundry assets to see what was available, and went through all the official maps and saw how things were used. Seeing content in some popular Foundry quests that doesn't currently exist in the Foundry doesn't help with my confidence in the system either.

[Tchos]

I looked over there. Someone says there are already 600 Foundry modules published so far, with 16K more "in the works". 600 surpasses the number of NWN2 modules on the Vault.

[kamal_]

Tchos wrote...

I looked over there. Someone says there are already 600 Foundry modules published so far, with 16K more "in the works". 600 surpasses the number of NWN2 modules on the Vault.

90% of the "modules" are 15-20 minutes long. And that's exactly how all the other modules will be, since to qualify for the "Foundry daily awards", a module must be at least 15 minutes long...

Since Cryptic stripped out things like options, "or" logic, etc, making a "module" is way easier than making a module in nwn. Every module must be entirely linear, and the Foundry has only three quest types you can pick from (kill something, click on something/someone, reach a point). You can't sculpt and paint textures on terrain, place any usable loot, or adjust creatures abilities etc either. There's so little you can do that making a "module" is very easy.

So open an area, throw in some enounters (you can't place individual monsters, only encounters, and they auto-scale to the player's level), put in a few lines of dialog, done. You don't even have to place placeables, as the exterior maps all come with pre detailed options, and the interior rooms have an auto-populate button (which is why most interiors look the same). I could, and did, make a module in a few hours, including the time it took me to learn how to do a few things with the Foundry.

Their other mmo with a mission editor had something like 400,000 "modules" published.

Since it's now open beta, and the launch day queues seem to have subsided, anyone can look for themselves. My "campaign" is an hour long (it's called Banreth Curiousities, if anyone wants to play it, vote it a 5 to amuse me. I made it while waiting on beta feedback from Crimmor). You have to reach the city to see Foundry content, but that takes about 20 minutes or so.

[Tchos]

Those shortcomings might be forgivable if the game looked fun to play, but the user gameplay videos I've watched have been...let me say "uninspiring". I play other games than NWN2, but I generally don't play things that don't look interesting just out of a sense of duty to try some next new thing. They must have merit and personal attraction in and of themselves, and I have plenty of other games in my queue and wishlist that meet those criteria -- too many to waste my time on something that I know to be too limited, in a hope that it'll improve over time.

My main point about the 600 number was that I still have hundreds of NWN2 modules to play (I've barely scratched the surface), and I daresay I'm much more likely to find an enjoyable module of high quality in the NWN2 library than in NWO.

But if I were to try NWO, I'd certainly try the ones made by the modders here.

[kamal_]

Tchos wrote...

Those shortcomings might be forgivable if the game looked fun to play, but the user gameplay videos I've watched have been...let me say "uninspiring". I play other games than NWN2, but I generally don't play things that don't look interesting just out of a sense of duty to try some next new thing. They must have merit and personal attraction in and of themselves, and I have plenty of other games in my queue and wishlist that meet those criteria -- too many to waste my time on something that I know to be too limited, in a hope that it'll improve over time.

My main point about the 600 number was that I still have hundreds of NWN2 modules to play (I've barely scratched the surface), and I daresay I'm much more likely to find an enjoyable module of high quality in the NWN2 library than in NWO.

But if I were to try NWO, I'd certainly try the ones made by the modders here.

just for the record, I have 4 of those 600, and it took about two weeks to make them.

[Tchos]

2 weeks to make all 4?

[kamal_]

Tchos wrote...

2 weeks to make all 4?

Yes.

First one: store with questgiver. questgiver sends you to beach to meet with ship (there are no docks areas, docks parts, or even ships [I used a "skyship"]. ship takes you to area to clear of monsters and click on some plot mcguffins. back at sea, ship is boarded be enemies. back to beach to turn in quest and get your reward. The beach was a prefab, the area you clear of monsters I made in about 15 minutes by placing prefab placeable groups (I used pretty much all of the ones available, there's not a lot), and the open ocean only required the ships.

Second one: reused my store from the first questgiver. questgiver sends you to graveyard. in the graveyard you enter a tomb. return to store once you get the plot mcguffin and collect your reward. graveyard was a prefab that I decorated to add orcish stuff, the tomb I made (though since you can't do area lighting, I selected lighting from the preset options)

Third one (a contest entry): same store and questgiver. questgiver sends you to a contact on the official map of the Blacklake District (requirement of the contest was to take place in this area). contact sends you to another contact in a shabby house in the area. Second contact sends you back to the main area of town, to wipe out an adventurers guild. The guild, where you kill the inhabitants. Back through the Blacklake District to the second contact. The second contact gives you the information you want, and sends you to the sewers. The sewers where you kill monsters and reach the plot mcguffin npc who gives you your mission reward. The shabby house was an interior room that I selected the room populate button for. The guildhall I selected a house interior and hit the populate button. The sewers I selected the room populate button for the rooms, and then added some things.

Fourth one: same store and questgiver. questgiver sends you to a canyon. in the canyon is a ruined temple where you kill stuff and then meet the a mcguffin npc. back to the store and collect your reward. The canyon is a prefab canyon I decorated. The temple is an interior I selected the room populate option for and then added more decoration.

None of these has more than a few hundred words of dialog in them.

Each of these is counted as a "module".

My module's length and number of maps is typical of Foundry content. 3-4 maps, 15-20 minutes, a few hundred words of dialog. The Foundry gives you a resource budget, both per map and for the module as a whole. Additionally, the resource budget has sub budgets for number of souds you can place, number of encounters etc. Because of the budget, there's only so big you can make things and have it not look empty. During beta they not only cut the budget number by two thirds, they made the resources have a varying cost (they used to only cost 1 resource point each), effectively further cutting the budget by another two thirds or so (this caused me to have to cut the monster clearing area of module one more than in half).

There are some longer modules that take 45-60 minutes. From the two I played of this length, these mostly mean significant running around on large and conspicuously empty maps (the two authors did not have a good understanding of map content density, and fortunately I have a horse to get around quickly). You can not make a large map and have an appropriate detail density unless you are making a plains area where it would naturally be low, or using one of the pre- detailed prefab maps.

[kamal_]

One extra add, your character must reach level 15 (out of 60) before you are granted access to the Foundry. This takes a few hours. As a Foundry beta tester, I didn't have that restriction. My open beta horse was also a freebie (you can get one ingame without paying real money, via buying it with gold/silver pieces, by freebie I meant I did not need to buy it with gold).

Modifié par kamal_, 02 mai 2013 - 11:31 .

[MasterChanger]

So what they call modules are actually just side-quests.

You know, this kind of game development is coming into stronger and stronger contrast to the recent indie Kickstarter way of making a game. Kickstarter drives like Project Eternity are totally honest with you: game features cost money to develop. Here's what we'll make if we get this amount of funding. 

Whereas NWO started by setting the price (free) and kept cutting all these corners, both in terms of features and in terms of quality. Much of this corner-cutting they don't even tell you about, you have to get in there like Kamal and figure out what works and what doesn't. It doesn't seem particularly honest to me.

[Tchos]

I agree. Content of that length sounds more like side quests, or at least single missions in a chain of quests. They probably don't call them modules at all. I've seen the term UGC thrown around, for "user-generated content".

[MokahTGS]

It's completely dishonest to be sure. If you need to know anything about NWO, it is that every system is designed to make money by adding gameplay purchase pressure. It isn't DnD...it is a DnD flavored scam.

Technically they can claim it is free to play, but choosing to play NWO for longer than lvl 30 will cost you $$.

The funny thing about the quest length and the MMO community is that 15 min is what the average MMO player can stand before they get bored.  If I look at my current NWN2 project (which isn't even remotely possible in NWO) 15 minutes would get you just barely out of the opening town.  That's if you were rushing...

The player base in NWO really is only looking for an action game.  They are not interested in RPGs.

Modifié par MokahTGS, 02 mai 2013 - 11:03 .

[kevL]

As far as I can tell, similar thing happened to xCom. Old XCom: steep learning curve, requires lots of (fore)thought to play well; new, basically a different game that cashed in on the legendary status of its originator. The NG is brilliant in its own right (esp. from the art dept.) ... but dishonest in its sales ( peeps have taken the DVD out and trashed it ) and, as far as i discern, its method of production ( the unkept promises keep piling up )


Dwarf Fortress!

- for a break from GetIsObjectValid( ).

In an interview with HASTAC Adams stated that the most impressive thing he had ever seen done with the game was when a player managed to create an entire Turing-complete calculator powered by dwarves.

• wikipedia:DF

I seriously considered buying the NG, but then re-imagined it at 320x200, 8-bit color ..... think i got a love affair blooming w/ play-by-donation DF tho.

[kamal_]

kevL wrote...

As far as I can tell, similar thing happened to xCom. Old XCom: steep learning curve, requires lots of (fore)thought to play well; new, basically a different game that cashed in on the legendary status of its originator. The NG is brilliant in its own right (esp. from the art dept.) ... but dishonest in its sales ( peeps have taken the DVD out and trashed it ) and, as far as i discern, its method of production ( the unkept promises keep piling up )


Dwarf Fortress!

- for a break from GetIsObjectValid( ).

In an interview with HASTAC Adams stated that the most impressive thing he had ever seen done with the game was when a player managed to create an entire Turing-complete calculator powered by dwarves.

• wikipedia:DF

I seriously considered buying the NG, but then re-imagined it at 320x200, 8-bit color ..... think i got a love affair blooming w/ play-by-donation DF tho.

The funniest dwarf fortress thing I ever heard of was a bug where if a dwarf got wet and then went somewhere hot, the dwarf would catch fire. The cause was the melting point of the dwarves fat was set too low.

[kevL]

http://www.mkv25.net...learcatsplosion

just sayin'

[kevL]

but more to the point, sorta. If anyone wants to see the sort of thing most people are interested in, click "Forum Home" and take the link to the first forum ...

or, for contrast, clik here /shrug

[ColorsFade]

MokahTGS wrote...

The funny thing about the quest length and the MMO community is that 15 min is what the average MMO player can stand before they get bored.  If I look at my current NWN2 project (which isn't even remotely possible in NWO) 15 minutes would get you just barely out of the opening town.  That's if you were rushing...

The player base in NWO really is only looking for an action game.  They are not interested in RPGs.

It's unfortunate that things have gone that way, but it's been happening for a decade. I remember getting into to some pretty heated debates with people about MMO mechanics back in the day. It became clear there were two camps: "casual" gamers who just want to jump for a small bit of action (often solo), and a more serious group of folks who wanted depth, grouping, raids, and a generally "more difficult" mechanic to play against. 

And then there were the money debates too. Some of us (seemed to me like those of us who were not "casual" gamers) were more than happy to pay a monthly fee of $15 for the abilty to play a polished and constantly worked on game, while the "casual" crowd seemed to want something "free". 

Well, they got their "free". I hope they like it. 

I know the casual player base is larger and I don't fault the game companies who have to invest millions of dollars into development for trying to chase the casual gamer's dollar. But sometimes I think the companies just bit off the hands that fed them. Non-casual gamers play and play a lot... and are willing to spend money. This is their hobby. It's what they do. 

Non-casual gamers (I had the term "hardcore" - it sends images to my head of fat guys with no pants on sitting glued to a chair with empty pizza boxes and cans of Mountain Dew strewn about a smelly, disgusting apartment room) are more than happy, IMO, to fork over a monthly fee for a quality game. If I had the position to be in charge of a game, I'd rather build an awesome, custom-content experience that had 300,000 monthly paying subscribers than some cheap, money-hooks, user-driven content system that lacks depth. 

But that's just me. I miss the old days. I guess I'm old. 

All of this just makes me want to make my own campaign for NWN2 rock that much more. Even if only a handful of people play it - if they like it and enjoy it, that's totally worth it. 

And if not, screw it. I'm gonna play it. And I'll like it. And the casual gamer companies won't get my coin. Ha!

[JasonNH]

I never expected anything more from the Foundry. The pacing of MMOs and the their corresponding expectations from players do not comport well with a NWN2 style of story and quest design. Personally, the next closest rival to the NWN2 toolset looks like it could be coming from Larian with Divine Divinity:Original Sin. I'll be keeping a close eye on that one, but the combat system is going to be much different so I'm still not sure how much overlap there will be between the two gaming styles.

[kamal_]

For what I'm sure will be the great amusement of the NWN community, I busted a Perfect World (they own Cryptic) employee posing as a regular NWO "toolset" user. my blog with the screenshots

direct forum link, assuming they don't delete my post like they deleted the employee post.

[Tchos]

I followed the link, and you said that the implication of this is that regular users are competing with unmarked Perfect World employees' dungeons, but what could their purpose be in that?

I do find dezstravus' sort-of explanation of it to be suspicious.

[kamal_]

Tchos wrote...

I followed the link, and you said that the implication of this is that regular users are competing with unmarked Perfect World employees' dungeons, but what could their purpose be in that?

I do find dezstravus' sort-of explanation of it to be suspicious.

Whether or not anything was happening here, it's an inherent conflict of interest problem when the company employees are not marked as such in the game. For what can happen, www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/op-ed/847-Jumpgate-EVEs-Devs-and-the-Friends-They-Keep . It's especially a problem when the ingame resources can be converted to real money, as can be done in any mmo where there are gold sellers.

[Tchos]

I read the EVE article, and I see what you mean.