4 réponses à ce sujet

[Julius Caesar]

 Was gonna add this to my post on the hybrid/pure willpower warrior builds but rather than informing this is a question - much better if I make a new post for it.

I must add this isn't really a matter of "invest into attack/str in order to reduce your glancing blows in order to increase DPS" this is simply just how much you can dish out, so yeah guess it's a question of not only damage in a given time, but damage in general.

I think critical chance's importance in this is solely based on the critical damage modifer; if it's high enough you would think that the critical chance setup would be better for DPS, but this is just me throwing out thoughts, I'm baffled, so I'ma just type away and hope someone gives me a little more clarity.

I'm in a dilemma here, well - kinda.

While I've gone down the elemental road again for more damage, it means accesories that give + X% elemental damage take priority(?) however it's in exchange for crit chance items I had initially. e.g. The act 3 amulet (keep forgetting the bloody name, that you get @Bonny Lems in diseased passage that'll get you like +10/11% crit rate.

Rings too - I'll use The Graven Circle (for +%crit damage although I'm actually considering whether it's a necessity or not & with low crit rate there's really no point) & The Ferryman usually (if using fire/elec weps) and use Puzzle/Etched otherwise. 

What also doesn't help is that becoming a re-speccing to become an elemental Willpower-Hybrid warrior means that I've let go of the lovely Hauberk of Gelgenig the Faithful DlC armour in order to use ROUC (Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness) and in doing so I lose the +13% crit rate.
In addition to becoming an elemental hybrid is that one of the perks is thanks to your your str (and some prebuffing) you're able to equip various weps - long & 2h swords. Which are elemental swords to help you actually apply your elemental boosts. However in doing that I totally lost another 13% crit rate due to trading my Empress' Point DLC 2H in to use elemental weps. 

So as you see I lose about... 26 (from armour & 2h) + 10/11% from puzzle ring, 4% from etched ring, & 10/11% from the act 3 amulet - in exchange for respeccing to the more powerful branch of warrior.

Loss - 50-52% crit rate or something like that I think.

Only thing keeping me going is some bonuses I have lying around somewhere in my setup - along with my Sunder & Valliant armour bonus - +20% so I'm round about 33-38% crit rate right now - huge blow from my 70-90% when being a pure willpower warrior prior respec.

It's not all that bad - Like I said in return for losing that juicy crit rate I get huge elemental boosts. I got my filthy hands on smite now +12% fire/elec/spirit dmg.
Sundering 2h will give ya 16% critical damage + 16% electricity damage.

ROUC will give ya 24% elemental damage: fire/nature/cold/electricity

So with ROUC, Sundering and Smite (electricity setup) I'll be walking around with +52% electricity damage.
Another example with the Cold setup: Bloom +16% cold damage, ROUC +24% cold, Dura's Flame+ 10% cold  = +50% cold damage.

So with the explanation and some examples out the way - MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION

In terms of DPS - What setup would dish out more damage in a shorter period of time?!
ELEMENTAL VS CRITICAL

I think dps is relevant even for a warrior; cleave & sacrificial(blood) frenzy don't last forever - same goes for haste, adrenaline and barrage. You're actually against the clock in battle as soon as you activate your abilities. 

If you were simply using your normal physical damage setup ofcourse you'd expect  your DPS to go up if you invested into critical chance, crits hit higher - and with a 70-90% crit chance you can be pretty sure most of your attacks will be crits, crits hit harder like I said - more dps right?

Fine, fine - however the elemental setup provides huge boosts for the player, maybe I should change the question into what setup will provide the best boost to damage in general, but damage over time is important.

As I'm typing this I'm trying to think of solutions - perhaps it's just a matter of calculations - critical damage modifier vs elemental boosts - if the %elemental boost surpasses the critical dmg modifer then obviously elemental damage would be the way to go right? In addition to that you also do pump the odd crit here and there which would be your elemental + critical dmg boosts on top of your damage.

Elemental? ..


Meh - but then I think can get to round +50-60% elemental damage (moreso if I get more elemental apparel but the bonuses will be miniscule. +4% +5% etc) 
however with etched ring, graven circle, seven deadly cinch & a few other bonuses I can get round 80-100%+ critical damage...I'm talking about critical damage because by having a big enough modifier boost the critical chance investment is worth it - for more dps.

So... perhaps Critical chance% + Critical Damage?

HOWEVER - the point of using elemental boosts and weps to apply the boosts is that you use them on enemies weak to the element you are using - that's the whole point of doing it in the first place. So it's whatever +% elemental dmg boost you have PLUS whatever bonus dmg you'll do on the enemy for using an elemental he/she's weak to. 

Also, if I go down the crit rate/dmg road again it means elemental is no longer in the picture, simply not enough room to put enough elemental dmg in, priorities. The critical damage/rate warrior will also be restricted to weps without str requirements.

So I guess it's kinda become a crit vs elemental warrior thing, I should totally do more vs. posts... 

... 


So anyway, I really don't know, although typing this out has given me abit more clarity I'm not totally 100% sure of anything. However I'm leaning towards elemental damage being the victor for DPS in terms of elemental dmg vs crit chance/crit dmg - simply because crit chance + crit dmg apply to elemental damage too, even if it is to a lesser extent.

Modifié par Legit_Sync, 12 mars 2013 - 05:28 .

[mr_afk]

So, if I'm reading this right, you're comparing a setup using non-elemental weapons and focusing on crit chance/damage to a setup using elemental weapons and focusing on +%elemental damage.

Basically speaking, elemental weapons will always out-damage physical weapons when there's elemental weaknesses involved. Elemental damage deals double damage against weaknesses, ignores armour, and can be buffed a considerable amount. It also has nifty force effects. Spirit damage is particularly powerful as it partially ignores damage resistance.

Physical damage gets no special damage bonuses (or immunities) and is affected by armour. It's also a lot harder to buff physical damage, although buffing critical chance/damage can partially compensate. The knock-back force effect also tends to reduce dps, since it adds an element of travel time between attacks. It is rare to get double damage on a critical hit (critical damage% for warriors tends to be ~80% max). So no matter the critical chance bonuses, in general, physical damage will always tend to deal less damage than elemental damage - especially when facing elemental weaknesses.

However, there are certain situations where it may be beneficial to use physical damage. There are situations where elemental weaknesses and immunities overlap (e.g. shades and revenants), there are no elemental weaknesses (e.g. abominations), or there are no decent elemental weapons available/there is a particularly powerful physical weapon available.
A lack of elemental weapons of your level is less of a problem with the item packs and dlc, but the limited number of elemental weapons still limits the ability to match elemental weaknesses.
Certain physical dlc weapons such as hawke's key (or item-pack weapons) convey significant advantages that may make them comparable, if not better, to elemental weapons. The hawke's key can have the highest possible base damage and ignore armour, and item-pack weapons have significant modifiers to crit chance/damage, attack-speed, and eventually out-level and have a higher base damage than the vanilla elemental weapons.
This means that the dlc physical weapons are a very competitive alternative when there are no appropriate weapons to exploit elemental weaknesses.

So the answer to the dps battle between physical and elemental weapons is that it largely depends on the enemy type and the weapons available for the fight.

At the start of the acts, weapons with set item-levels will tend to have a higher item-level and be more powerful than the level-up weapons, while at the end of acts the opposite is true.
In terms of end-game weaponry, the majority of elemental weapons are static (besides the item pack and dlc weapons), while the more powerful physical weapons (i.e. dogs of war) tend to level-up. This means that eventually the dogs of war will out-level the other 2H elemental weapons (besides the fire battle-axe from mota) and will start to dish out more dps, despite been affected by armour. This then becomes a case where the highest dps involves either 'switching elemental weapons to meet elemental weaknesses' or having one over-powered physical weapon.

The final element to the 'best weapon for dps' involves runes. End-game runes can provide some pretty hefty bonuses, with the primeval lyrium rune increasing attackspeed by a ridiculous amount, and the rune of devastation giving a +10% bonus to damage. Basically speaking, adding the primeval rune to any of the end-game weapons will make that weapon the highest-dps dealing in your game. Since maximising the effectiveness of elemental weapons involves switching weapons based on enemy type and there is only one primeval lyrium rune, the physical damage approach may be more effective on this front.


However, as you may have mentioned (it's hard to decipher), you can use elemental weapons and still focus on crit chance/damage. In regards to whether it's better to use crit gear or elemental gear for your elemental weapon, you'll probably have to use a spreadsheet/calculator to compare their dps really. My personal feeling is that elemental damage% will be more beneficial at first, until around +60-80%, where increasing crit chance/damage may start becoming better. It's something to do with the principle of keeping both modifiers as high as possible instead of just one. 100 damage modified by +50% and +50% gives 100*1.5*1.5=225, while 100 damage modified by +100% only gives 100*2=200. Of course if the damages are calculated additively it won't make any difference.

Basically, just load up on the decent sources of elemental damage (e.g. rouc, ring of the ferryman, and maybe smite), while keep the decent critical chance/damage gear (e.g. puzzlering, seven deadly cinch/wyvern hunter's belt, maybe nine finger's lucky amulet) and you should be close enough to optimised. It's not like it's necessary to eke out any more damage by that point.


Hope this all makes sense/helps.

[Julius Caesar]

Makes perfect sense AFK, I was hoping you'd help me out on this and you did.

Yeah I remember reading something about that - concerning optimizing both modifiers rather than just focusing on one.

Your talk about Hawke's key & Dogs of war really has me thinking now. Would it be worth leaving my elemental hybrid setup to become a full willpower warrior again? I don't think Dogs or Hawke have str requirements and my attack was fine for the most part I guess - As for bosses could always rely on base damage...

So let's assume you're fighting an enemy with an elemental weakness - electricity for example.
You're using Sundering - 16% crit + elec dmg - Less crit chance
ROUC & Smite

This set-up is being used by a hybrid-willpower warrior, Willpower being main stat, but enough str (after prebuff) to equip various elemental 2h items - ((We both know Pure Willpower has a greater effect on base dmg than str alone or str & willpower due to 0.5 v 0.7/0.75?)) So the hybrid-warrior is a slightly less powerful variation of warrior however due to being able to take advantage of higher str it can equip elemental 2H's & use a setup i.e. ROUC & smite to capitalise

vs.

Using Dogs of War - Physical damage - Pure Willpower Warrior - higher crit chance
With it's amazing bonuses you'd think having a higher crit chance would mean higher DPS - that's just me guessing but I think this might actually be the case (about to head out in abit when I get back I'll test it out)

I guess in that case it means I won't have to worry about elemental immunities and switching, I think it has a critical dmg bonus as well as phys dmg? Would it be safe to trade in Etched's 4% crit chance and 9% crit dmg for Graven Circle's 19% crit dmg? (I know, you're prolly thinking what is it with Legit and that blasted Graven ring?! xD) obviously I won't have elemental bonuses anymore to capitalise on enemy weaknesses but considernig Dog's bonuses I don't think I'll be missing out on too much DPS wise

I'll give it a try and see how it goes. However I won't be suprised if I don't hit higher than the elemental set-up though, I don't know what Spiders have in terms of damage resistance or w,e but I know they aint got armour and they're weak to elec dmg.

I didn't even have ROUC or smite at the time and being just under half health (using sundering ofc & Ferryman ring I think) I managed to average 2-3k (peaking round 2.8-3k) after slapping on cleave & sac frenzy - Not tryna blow my own horn or anythin but the I'm tryna say this is why I'm not sure any phys setup can out-do a fully optimised elemental set-up!

However, I will still try out the Dogs and see what we've got.

Guess 1 more question before I jet off

You reminded me of the benefits of investing into 2 modifiers as opposed to trying to optimise one.

So with elemental setup - (up to about 60-80%) would you suggest then investing crit chance and THEN crit dmg ?
Or with a measly 33-40% crit chance would I be better off just trying to boost crit dmg as soon as I got 60-80% elem dmg.

Cheers mate for the response! Always appreciate the advice!

[mr_afk]

You mean 2-3k for your abilities/mighty blows right, not autoattacks?
Here's my experimental physical/crit 2H build:
I'm pretty sure that might have been a strength/dex reaver build rather than a berserker, so a willpower version would probably have an even higher spike damage, not to mention the considerable dps bonus available from barrage. That said, I'm pretty sure elemental setups can deal a lot more damage than that when fighting against elemental weaknesses. I really should have recorded an alternative setup using bloom/celebrant for that fight to compare, but I didn't really play 2H warriors all that much.

Attack-rating is pretty essential for dps (though maybe not so much spike damage), so I would bet on your hybrid elemental approach been more effective than a pure willpower berserker using the dogs of war. I can't remember if you ended up testing it, but I don't think critical chance affects the chance of glancing blows - so even with 100% crit chance you would still be dealing puny damage the majority of the time.

Most people play rogues if they're after big numbers - and even S&S gives bigger numbers from their CCCs (which are really satisfying). The main way to reach ridiculous levels of dps with 2H warriors is by increasing attack-speed rather than having bigger numbers. With dual haste, primeval lyrium rune, barrage, and fervour, you can get pretty epic levels of attack-speed such that the numbers don't really matter and you can mow enemies down with auto-attacks. I think if the emphasis is on maximising dps (i.e. speedrun style), you should focus more on increasing the average auto-attack value rather than the odd critical hit and ability. Of course if you're simply after big numbers just pump willpower and whack the enemies with an ability.

Generally speaking it's better to focus on increasing critical chance before critical damage, however if you've already got a 40% crit chance the graven ring will probably a good choice. You can roughly tell how useful that increase in critical damage% is going to be by dividing it by your critical chance. i.e. if you have 50% crit chance, +20% critical damage will give around +10% extra damage on average. There are a whole other bunch of factors to consider, but since you start with 50% critical damage and 0% critical chance, increasing crit chance so that you can get that 50% into play more often would be better. e.g. between a 10% chance to deal 70% damage and 20% chance to deal 50% damage; you have a 7% increase compared to a 10% increase. (I hope that's right, my maths is rather terrible).

Another thing to consider is temporary buffs - In a party setup where you can use heroic aura, control (via rally), and brand for ~+45% extra critical chance, or a hex of torment for a temporary 100% crit chance, the extra crit damage from the graven ring will be better - but without those buffs or a decent crit chance you would probably be better off with a ring that increases your critical chance.


One last thing; If I remember right, sundering has a problem with a lack of runeslots. I'm pretty sure bloom or celebrant are the best elemental 2H weapons for that reason, although the way all the end-game enemies are weak to them also helps. Sundering's main advantage (and celebrant's main disadvantage) is that it can buffed by the robes of unblemished cleanlieness and the ferryman's ring - however, with mota, there's the dragon's breath - If you don't care about elemental weaknesses (i.e. you aren't focusing on killing templars etc), dragon's breath buffed with the rouc and the ferryman's ring will probably be the most powerful 2H weapon. It also has one of the highest base damages if you get it end-game.

[Julius Caesar]

Nah bro. It was at sundermount, the spiders appeared, I already had ferryman ring on as I just bought Sundering and was walking around with it, I started wacking away but I was hitting 1k+ .. so I just slapped on SF and cleave and the dmg went from 2k's to 2.5k's but mainly round 2.5/2.8-3k range autoattack crits might I add not normal hits.

Yeah I aint really had a chance like that since when I find another elec weak enemy I'll see what I hit then, but yeah since then Sundering's hit really high, you also gotta remember Ferryman's 24% and Sundering's 16% give you an immediate 40% +elec dmg, not to mention the +16% crit damage, I knew it was bound to churn the highest damage out of all my elemental setups because of those bonuses. (Who knows I might have already had ROUC on, but I actually don't think I did at all, because I remember being annoyed cos I couldn't be bothered to go to black emp. to go get ROUC, then maker sigh, go home and sort myself out stat wise to have just the right str and mag to be prebuffed to wear the stuff). My mighty blow (with bloom) hit round 5k, haven't tried elec yet but I'm sure there's potential there (yeah you're right I think elemental setups have abit more in them myself, against elem weaknesses)

Yeah I haven't tested the whole 100% crit rate/****ty attack rate thing - just took ya word for it, I could test it one time perhaps? I don't mind.
Yeah ofcourse, attack rating is essential for dps, I don't miss on normal enemies though, and about 2 glancing blows per every 6 hits on LT's with my pure willpower set up (using Empress' point 2H) although against bosses I will suffer like hell as far as auto-attacking is concerned, but I intend to burst them down with skill damage anyway, my setup being a pure willpower warrior was in one of the updates on my post on the build(s) earlier.

Yeah that's what my previous 2h (Arelex's build) had going - the fervor, haste, and barrage combo, yeah it's true everything was a matter of just blazing down enemies with auto-attacks.
I see.. right, gotchya - I gotta slap this primeval rune on something good and just go for speed again.

Hmm. Right, I gotchya, divide crit dmg by crit rate to see the bonuses in your damage. Yeah I also considered the temp buffs, thanks a lot for clearing that up. Crit rate priority, but use my head - if it seems worth it, go for crit dmg.

HELL YEA I was so bummed out by that like! 2 rune slots woulda done perfectly. Yeah I was considering putting the prim. rune & devastation in Bloom, although after your first reply Dog's 2H. sounds like a good candidate for the prim. rune, yeah always knew dragon's breath would be an epic 2H to use endgame, I just always hit MOTA early due to impatience.

So to clarify -

Speed over damage (obviously applying common sense if the damage is good enough) and go for crit rate before crit damage.

Using elem modifiers it's better to have both modifiers contributing to your damage an equal amount than just one modifier being optimized.

Physical damage - Speed > crit chance > crit damage.

Elem damage - Speed > crit chance > crit damage.

Obviously it's not all black and white as investment in crit damage would benefit your investment in elemental damage, however crit damage investment is only worth it if your crit chance is sufficient...

So although the elemental route may be the better path for damage I think finding a balance between the different aspects mentioned are key to getting the best possible DPS.

I think I got it, I hope.