495 réponses à ce sujet

[Sulaco_7]

bump.

the balance change thread is going to be much talked about today.. one way or another.

[Aphid32]

Keep the dream alive!!

[Sulaco_7]

30 mins. time to bump.

[Counter_Mixture]

bump

[Flambrose]

Let's enjoy our 10% buff.

[Lathlaer]

Yeah, I am very dissapointed.

[Counter_Mixture]

. . .

[burr beer]

If these are the final balance changes, I doubt we'll get any staff posting here as there's nothing they can do. Sorry guys, hope the RNG doesn't max this gun before your favorites are maxed.

[Counter_Mixture]

Modifié par Counter_Mixture, 12 mars 2013 - 05:42 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Lathlaer wrote...

@EvanKester

I don't know why do you count Typhoon's ramp up but not the Spitfire's? It also has a ramp up before it goes to the 600 RoF but, unlike the Typhoon, it doesn't gain 1.5x damage modifier for that.

And, according to this sheet, is it true that with reload cancel a Revenant 10 has more sustained DPS than Spitfire burst DPS?

Also, bump.

Because the Spitfire has full damage for its entire ramp up, only its rate of fire gets faster. The Typhoon has a two-stage ramp up, where first it needs to hit its full rate of fire, and then it hits full damage. All told, the Spitfire spends a lot more time at full-power than the Typhoon does. Paper calculations are nice and all, but only in-game experience can truly tell if the weapons are balanced.

And the Spitfire's going to have disproportionately low burst DPS pretty much no matter what. It's a sustained fire weapon, and unlike most of those, its clip size is so huge that it could pretty much keep firing for an entire wave without stopping, something it shares with only the Geth Plasma SMG and Pulse Rifle.

There was a time when I would've liked to try and create a function to calculate DPS fully factoring ramp up and charge up time, plus all the reloads. Had too many better things to do with my time, like actually playing the game. But I'm certain such a formula would favor the Spitfire by a wider margin than any of our simplified calculations. The gun has ridiculous up-time.

I wanna see what the guys with Spitfire X's say about the gun's in-game performance before making any calls about today's balance changes.

Modifié par EvanKester, 12 mars 2013 - 05:54 .

[Eric Fagnan]

I've looked at the data and it appears that the value we use to determine the length of the bar for rate of fire on the weapon screen is set to 800, but the Spitfire's in-game rate of fire is set to 650.

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to determine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

Modifié par Eric Fagnan, 12 mars 2013 - 09:12 .

[BreakJohn]

the Fagnan has spoken!

[Shampoohorn]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've looked at the data and it appears that the value we use to determine the length of the bar for rate of fire on the weapon screen is set to 800, but the Spitfire's in-game rate of fire is set to 650.

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to deteremine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

Hey tyhw, the Fagnan just nerfed your thread. 

[Sulaco_7]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've looked at the data and it appears that the value we use to determine the length of the bar for rate of fire on the weapon screen is set to 800, but the Spitfire's in-game rate of fire is set to 650.

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to deteremine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

Thank you for this.  Much appreciated.

At least the rate of fire is not 600 but 650.  So that's kind of a buff

[Grunt_Platform]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've looked at the data and it appears that the value we use to determine the length of the bar for rate of fire on the weapon screen is set to 800, but the Spitfire's in-game rate of fire is set to 650.

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to deteremine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

Thanks for the reply.

And 650 is a significant step up from 600 so that's good to know too.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the stronger Spitfire performs in-game.

Modifié par EvanKester, 12 mars 2013 - 06:12 .

[peddroelm]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've looked at the data and it appears that the value we use to determine the length of the bar for rate of fire on the weapon screen is set to 800, but the Spitfire's in-game rate of fire is set to 650.

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to deteremine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

in game weapon fires at 600 RPM

proof

[xTh3xBusinessx]

And the weapon is still not worth UR status...>.>

[peddroelm]

BreakJohn wrote...

the Fagnan has spoken!

wrongly .. Weapon fires at 600 RPM

[Elotana]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've looked at the data and it appears that the value we use to determine the length of the bar for rate of fire on the weapon screen is set to 800, but the Spitfire's in-game rate of fire is set to 650.

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to deteremine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

Is this post supposed to be reassuring? 

[Flambrose]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to deteremine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

This explains a lot about the balancing process for the game.

I would prefer balance by formula, myself.

[Elotana]

Formulas can't tell you what's in your gut, and Fagnan's gut tells him that the Spitfire is a great weapon. I mean it just FEELS powerful, man!

[Grunt_Platform]

So crunching things again with a 650 ROF in mind, and the gun's actual in-game handling in mind.. the buff should actually fix just about everything. On paper, the spitfire looks like it has the best sustained damage in the game. In practice, it should be ahead by a wider margin than any theorycraft can really show, since the only guns that come close to it are much less accurate or have worse ramp times, and everything has a worse clip size, which means more time spent reloading instead of shooting.

If the gun's in-game performance has issues, then well. OK.

Modifié par EvanKester, 12 mars 2013 - 06:29 .

[InTheZone]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've looked at the data and it appears that the value we use to determine the length of the bar for rate of fire on the weapon screen is set to 800, but the Spitfire's in-game rate of fire is set to 650.

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to deteremine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

TY. All this overanalysis into numbers is just silly. At the end of the day, just get a better weapon. 

[Lucky]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've looked at the data and it appears that the value we use to determine the length of the bar for rate of fire on the weapon screen is set to 800, but the Spitfire's in-game rate of fire is set to 650.

This is simply an error with the visual bar in the menu, and it should have no impact on the balance of the weapon. In fact, we don't plug in stats into a magic formula to deteremine balance anyway. All of our balance testing is done in a real level against real enemies, so in the end the value of the stats doesn't really matter; the only thing that matters is how the weapon performs in a real game.

Mr. Fagnan please take a look at and keep in mind peddro's testing for further balance updates. Thank you for the reply regardless, it is good to know you are not balancing it against an 800rpm at least.

[Flambrose]

Then model it taking all factors into account. There's some really horrid balancing issues with assault rifles, most SMGs, and some classes. How exactly do you determine in-game if something is performing well? If it kills an assault trooper in an 'acceptable' amount of time? That's subjective. Things should be balanced with comparative analysis in mind, and tested with in-game experience afterward.

Anyway, our testers have come up with a 600rpm RoF for the gun. The proof is in the link up there. Only 100 shots gained the thermal clip pack weapon damage bonus which lasts 10 seconds.