282 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

chemiclord wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

well .. there are enough youtube videos out there, who show the "best places in the house"-scenario to be the ending. they just ignore the catalyst and let shepard die next to anderson. in this case, the creators intent is violated as well.

the only thing that bothers you, is the medium this fanficition uses.


mehem respects the story to a big degree. it does not claim, that the catalyst does not exist - it is not shown but that does not disregard its existance. imo, the original endings do not respect the rest of the story and what mass effect ued to stand for.


if the creators intent was to force my avatar (and therefore myself) to accept the enemies values and methods, it is my duty to show them my disrespect.

the endings stand for 3 very evil notions. mass murder, eugenics, rule by terror. i cant accept them to be valid choices.

For the record, I think those youtube videos are wrong too.

And it's not just about the Catalyst (the mod handwaves it, but it still cuts it completely out).  The MEHEM also spares the geth and EDI, which was explicity stated would not be the case with the Destroy ending.  Like it or not (I particularly don't), that's still completely changing the framework of the ending.

That's disrespecting the creator's intent.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

i totally accept this as the truth ..

sometimes, you have to show a little disrespect, if something plays with themes, that are far more complex than they were intented to be. the writers may not recognised, that they opend pandoras box with the endings - but they did.

the endings may not be intented to be ... problematic ... but they are. the player is forced, to accept an atrocity as a legit mean to end the war. it does not matter how realistic it is - it is the wrong message. 

i love this speach form capt. picard 

by choosing the original endings, we admit, that at some point, wrong becomes right.

to use this video as an anology: during the entire game, we were picard - but at the end, we are forced to become the admiral.


this game claims to be based on moral decision but only offers 4 amoral ones, to end the game.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 10 mars 2013 - 01:14 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I wish people would stop thinking everyone who disliked the ending wanted a happy Disney ending, most just want a ending that was well written and fit with the overarching narrative of the Mass Effect trilogy.

[3DandBeyond]

JaegerBane wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I've said it many times, but I felt the high EMS/Destroy ending was similar to the ending of The Dark Knight Rises, in terms of structure and tone. I really liked how it worked out.

Batman commited genocide?

No, nor did he go to space or have blue alien space babies with catwoman.

My point wasn't that the ending was literally like TDKR, my point was that it took the same approach. There's in't some big cheesy sequence where Shepard gets found, gets married and sits in a bar with his homies and basks in the adulation of the entire galaxy. Instead, it elects to drop little hints as to what happened, where the story of the galaxy will go, showing you just enough that he and his friends survived the ordeal and won.

Much like how TDKR showed you that Bruce survived and was happy, and vague idea of how he did it, and that he made a point of letting Alfred know.

Except a torso laying in rubble after an incomprehensible mess of an explanation and a scene of what happened before that should have killed Shepard is not showing that Shepard survived and was happy.  That torso is not smiling.  It's injured, alone, and in a mess.  There is no rational explanation nor does Shepard have any specific narrative directed at his/her surviving destroy.  I believe s/he did but the scene plays and feels more like a cliffhanger than Batman did.  At the end of Batman you feel the emotion of the situation and you know and feel that he's alive and ok.  The torso scene is nothing like that.

[Jadebaby]

OP likes headcanon, nothing to see here.

[Bill Casey]

JaegerBane wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I've said it many times, but I felt the high EMS/Destroy ending was similar to the ending of The Dark Knight Rises, in terms of structure and tone. I really liked how it worked out.

Batman commited genocide?

No, nor did he go to space or have blue alien space babies with catwoman.

My point wasn't that the ending was literally like TDKR, my point was that it took the same approach. There's in't some big cheesy sequence where Shepard gets found, gets married and sits in a bar with his homies and basks in the adulation of the entire galaxy. Instead, it elects to drop little hints as to what happened, where the story of the galaxy will go, showing you just enough that he and his friends survived the ordeal and won.

Much like how TDKR showed you that Bruce survived and was happy, and vague idea of how he did it, and that he made a point of letting Alfred know.

I don't give two ****s about Shepard living or not...
I just want him to not be a complete monster, which he is in every ending bar refuse...

[chemiclord]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

i totally accept this as the truth ..

but sometimes, you have to show a little disrespect, if something plays with themes, that are far more complex, than they seem to be. the writers may not recognised, that they opend pandoras box with the endings - but they did.

the endings may not be intented to be ... problematic ... but they are. the player is forced, to accept an atrocity as a legit mean to end the war. it does not matter how realistic it is - it is the wrong message. 

i love this speach form capt. picard 

by choosing the original endings, we admit, that at some point, wrong becomes right.


this game claims to be based on moral decision but only offers 4 amoral ones, to end the game.

Well, in that case... I'm sorry, but it is what it is.

If I have to make a choice between disrespecting fans or disrespecting writers, I am going to side with the writers just about every time.  Perhaps it's because I'm a writer myself, and I feel a misplaced solidarity.  I dunno.

It IS a shame, because YES, fans are what make professional writers possible.  But the simple fact is that no matter how invested fans think they are, no matter how much time and money fans think they have poured into a story... the creators of that story have poured a hundredfold more.

I don't think the proper response to a metaphorical slap to the face is to slap them back, however.  For one, I don't think Bioware TRIED to hurt or lie or disrespect their fans.  That would be stupid, and while I don't think Bioware is the greatest creative team ever, I don't think they're idiots.

They told a story that they thought their fans would appreciate.  They were wrong.  Quite clearly wrong.  But the answer to that isn't for fans to say, "**** you, I'm gonna change your story to what I think it should be, because I know better than you do."

Honestly, the MEHEM could have been constructed to have Shepard's allies pulling him out of the rubble, and completely bull****ting some pseudo-science explanation that proved "Hey, the Catalyst was wrong!  We're able to rebuild EDI and the geth as they were before!" (Hell, it's not like ME3 didn't dive into the mystical space magic after all, couldn't blame a fan or a modder going there as a result)... and ya know what?  I wouldn't have a single problem with it (although I'd probably find it a wee bit sappy... but hell, what harm's a little sap now and again).  That would be an ending interpretation that Bioware fully encouraged their fans to take.

My dislike is centered not on the "happier" content, but that MrFob altered Bioware's own content to do so.  This is a topic I have taken up with MrFob himself, and we've decided to agree to disagree on that score.  I suppose I shall have to do the same here, and say good show.

Modifié par chemiclord, 10 mars 2013 - 01:30 .

[Reorte]

chemiclord wrote...

That's disrespecting the creator's intent.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

It's true that that's what it's doing but why is that a bad thing? Respect is earned, not given.

[Jadebaby]

JaegerBane wrote...

I've said it many times, but I felt the high EMS/Destroy ending was similar to the ending of The Dark Knight Rises.

Comparing Christopher Nolan to BioWare writers?

[3DandBeyond]

[quote]Dr_Extrem wrote...

[quote]chemiclord wrote...


For the record, I think those youtube videos are wrong too.

And it's not just about the Catalyst (the mod handwaves it, but it still cuts it completely out).  The MEHEM also spares the geth and EDI, which was explicity stated would not be the case with the Destroy ending.  Like it or not (I particularly don't), that's still completely changing the framework of the ending.

That's disrespecting the creator's intent.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

[/quote]

Oh for the love of Pete.  Pete's my cousin.  Hi Pete.

Guess what, people write fan fiction about Jedi Knights and the creators of Star Wars are doing just fine.

And really, disrespect for the intent of the creators of a game.  Let's see-Bioware disrespected not only a character in a game, but the main character, the player's avatar in the game.  They also disrespected the idea of a hero and many other important and great character traits that had been displayed as themes that came before the endings.  The endings disrespected my intelligence and my understanding of what actual words mean-words used in broken promises.  So yes, I'm going to lose sleep myself here and be totally afraid that Bioware has been disrespected because someone created a modded ending.

And get this, youtube videos do more to sell games than most IGN advertising does.  If not, owners of the original material would have them pulled for copyright infringement.  Youtube would not allow them.  Fan fiction, fan videos, mods that are for SP and actually make people want to buy a product, serve to sell games.  The creators will tell their intent to take a hike.  And Bioware has also said mods are ok as long as they aren't used to hack multiplayer experiences.

[Jadebaby]

chemiclord wrote...


For the record, I think those youtube videos are wrong too.

And it's not just about the Catalyst (the mod handwaves it, but it still cuts it completely out).  The MEHEM also spares the geth and EDI, which was explicity stated would not be the case with the Destroy ending.  Like it or not (I particularly don't), that's still completely changing the framework of the ending.

That's disrespecting the creator's intent.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

So? The creator's intent was crap. I'd take a chocolate lava cake sprinkled with vanilla icing over a chocolate lava cake sprinkled with slime icing anyday!

If I could justify paying them $100 to get ME3 on pc then mehem would be my ending. However it's still my canon.

[JaegerBane]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Except a torso laying in rubble after an incomprehensible mess of an explanation and a scene of what happened before that should have killed Shepard is not showing that Shepard survived and was happy.  That torso is not smiling.  It's injured, alone, and in a mess.  There is no rational explanation nor does Shepard have any specific narrative directed at his/her surviving destroy.  I believe s/he did but the scene plays and feels more like a cliffhanger than Batman did.  At the end of Batman you feel the emotion of the situation and you know and feel that he's alive and ok.  The torso scene is nothing like that.

The same logic directed at the ending of TDKR would have said that we don't know if Bruce is missing his legs, or that he isn't dying of cancer due to a fatal does of radiation from the bomb, or even if Alfred is having a nervous breakdown and is hallucinating his adoptive son being precisely what he hoped he'd be.

At some point the player has to make a judgement on what they feel is the most rational and likely situation being depicted by the footage, and I choose to believe that a scene of Shepard lying in the rubble and yet still breathing, combined with a shot of the Normandy on its way with the the LI refusing to place his name on the memorial wall, is the game saying he's still alive and his crew are on the way. Mainly because the existence of the scene itself is redundant if he's dead, as it was already implied by the prior climax.

One can decide that the final scene actually shows him dying and that for some reason we needed a specific shot of his last breath to confirm it, that his crew are in for a disappointment and that bizarrely, this final breath is only visible if the EMS was high. But at that point,  one is twisting what is actually shown to fit their own conclusion rather than the other way around.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 10 mars 2013 - 01:32 .

[AlexMBrennan]

However the name would imply it serves the purpose of a happy ending, as if there was not a happy ending. And that irks me because while disliking the current ending is fine, I think most gamers are unrealistic about what would be a happy ending to this war.

Yeah, and Bioware could benefit from occasionally looking up words in a dictionary as well.

The original ending kills any sense of accomplishment by having the guy that could have stopped the cycle at any point kindly stop the cycle for Shepard. MEHEM fixes this, and "happy" is catchier than the former explanation.

Do you really want to discuss one slightly unfortunate choice of words? 

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 10 mars 2013 - 01:30 .

[Iakus]

Reorte wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

That's disrespecting the creator's intent.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

It's true that that's what it's doing but why is that a bad thing? Respect is earned, not given.

\\

Besides which, the original and EC endings made me feel like the authors disrespected me.

So the way I figure it:

-Bioware allows single player mods

-They encourage headcanon, speculation, and players using their imagination

-It's not like canon and lore stays consistent across the games anyway.

So what's wrong with a mod that provides a nending players would prefer anyway?  When did having options suddenly become a bad thing ?

[Reorte]

JaegerBane wrote...

At some point the player has to make a judgement on what they feel is the most rational and likely situation being depicted by the footage, and I choose to believe that a scene of Shepard lying in the rubble and yet still breathing, combined with a shot of the Normandy on its way with the the LI refusing to place his name on the memorial wall, is the game saying he's still alive and his crew are on the way.

One can decide that the final scene actually shows him dying and that for some reason we needed a specific shot of his last breath to confirm it, that his crew are in for a disappointment and that bizarrely, this final breath is only visible if the EMS was high. But at that point,  one is twisting what is actually shown to fit their own conclusion rather than the other way around.

The problem I have with it is that the intention of the scenes (why they're in there at all, and other considerations if you metagame) says one thing but the content more strongly suggests another (e.g. lost in a bad place, badly wounded, why make up the plaque at all, and the LI isn't clairvoyant).

[JaegerBane]

Jadebaby wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I've said it many times, but I felt the high EMS/Destroy ending was similar to the ending of The Dark Knight Rises.

Comparing Christopher Nolan to BioWare writers?

Indeed. I happen to be a big fan of both Batman and ME, so I don't see what the issue is.

I'm not really sure why people on here act like I'm supposed to seek permission from the bandwagon as to whether I can like something or not. I've explained my reasoning for the similarity, you can disagree or agree as you see fit, but please, spare me the cheap shots.

[Dr_Extrem]

chemiclord wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

i totally accept this as the truth ..

but sometimes, you have to show a little disrespect, if something plays with themes, that are far more complex, than they seem to be. the writers may not recognised, that they opend pandoras box with the endings - but they did.

the endings may not be intented to be ... problematic ... but they are. the player is forced, to accept an atrocity as a legit mean to end the war. it does not matter how realistic it is - it is the wrong message. 

i love this speach form capt. picard 

by choosing the original endings, we admit, that at some point, wrong becomes right.


this game claims to be based on moral decision but only offers 4 amoral ones, to end the game.

Well, in that case... I'm sorry, but it is what it is.

If I have to make a choice between disrespecting fans or disrespecting writers, I am going to side with the writers just about every time.  Perhaps it's because I'm a writer myself, and I feel a misplaced solidarity.  I dunno.

It IS a shame, because YES, fans are what make professional writers possible.  But the simple fact is that no matter how invested fans think they are.  No matter how much time and money fans think they have poured into a story... the creators of that story have poured a hundredfold more.

I don't think the proper response to a metaphorical slap to the face is to slap them back, however.  For one, I don't think Bioware TRIED to hurt or lie or disrespect their fans.  That would be stupid, and while I don't think Bioware is the greatest creative team ever, I don't think their idiots.

They told a story that they thought their fans would appreciate.  They were wrong.  Quite clearly wrong.  But the answer to that isn't for fans to say, "**** you, I'm gonna change your story to what I think it should be, because I know better than you do."

Honestly, the MEHEM could have been constructed to have Shepard's allies pulling him out of the rubble, and completely bull****ting some pseudo-science explanation that proved "Hey, the Catalyst was wrong!  We're able to rebuild EDI and the geth as they were before!" (Hell, it's not like ME3 didn't dive into the mystical space magic after all, couldn't blame a fan or a modder going there as a result)... and ya know what?  I wouldn't have a single problem with it (although I'd probably find it a wee bit sappy... but hell, what harm's a little sap now and again).  That would be an ending interpretation that Bioware fully encouraged their fans to take.

My dislike is centered not on the "happier" content, but that MrFob altered Bioware's own content to do so.  This is a topic I have taken up with MrFob himself, and we've decided to agree to disagree on that score.  I suppose I shall have to do the same here, and say good show.

good show indeed .. it is refreshing, that i can have a discourse here, that does not descent into ranting and insulting.

i am a little touchy on the endings, because they want me to defy some of my deepest principles.


on the mod: we dont really know, when the memorial takes place ... maybe the geth and edi were rebuild/rebooted ect. its up to the players own imagination. maybe the catalyst was right and we were able to rebuild what was lost (edi/geth).

mrfob did not cut our the subtile hints that imply the catalysts existence - it just does not show the final confrontation between shepard and the catalyst. the scene is shown from a different point of view. it gives an explanation, how shepard is rescued as well. what is changed, is the way the characters behave. in the ec, they act totally ooc - something that you (as a writer) should criticise as well.


just lets agree. that we have different backgrounds:
 
- you protect the vision of your fellow writers (totally ok)
- i protest (by using this mod) against the careless attempt to trivialise the atrocities

both things are valid - but contrary.

[Jadebaby]

JaegerBane wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I've said it many times, but I felt the high EMS/Destroy ending was similar to the ending of The Dark Knight Rises.

Comparing Christopher Nolan to BioWare writers?

Indeed. I happen to be a big fan of both Batman and ME, so I don't see what the issue is.

I'm not really sure why people on here act like I'm supposed to seek permission from the bandwagon as to whether I can like something or not. I've explained my reasoning for the similarity, you can disagree or agree as you see fit, but please, spare me the cheap shots.

Hey you're free to like whatever you want pal. I never even tried to insult you for that so if that's what you're seeing, it's all in your own head. What I am scrutinizing is you comparing them to C Nolan. That's just ridiculous. You cannot compare Bruce sitting there with his future lady, happy and content, to Shepard lying half dead in a piece of rubble eons away from any kind of help. The two are almost polar opposites.

[JaegerBane]

Reorte wrote...
The problem I have with it is that the intention of the scenes (why they're in there at all, and other considerations if you metagame) says one thing but the content more strongly suggests another (e.g. lost in a bad place, badly wounded, why make up the plaque at all, and the LI isn't clairvoyant).

Lost? Clairvoyance? I don't know where you got that from. Everyone knows where Shep went and the reason the LI isn't willing to actually place the plaque up is that they don't know for certain he's dead, they've merely assumed it (albeit with fair reasoning). They know that if anyone could survive that, it would be Shep, so they're going to make damn sure. Cut to the shot of him breathing in the rubble a la ME1 ending plus an added does of harsheness.

Realistically, the only explanation beyond this for the LI's smile and the Normandy flying off is that they actually wanted Shep dead all along and presumably feel they've achieved it. And if you believe that, then, well...

[cbutz]

The difference between TDKR and HEMSDestory is that if TDKR was like ME3 it would stop at Alfred smiling at the camera.

If ME3 was like TDKR it would take the extra step that TDKR took, showing Bruce at the table drinking w/e, it may show Shepard being pulled out of the rubble, or sitting in a hospital bed, or something like that.

Yes, Bioware hints and indirectly hints at the squad finding Shepard and that he does survive, but it is not satisfying.

As for why people go with MEHEM, some do it for the reasons above. Others because of the catalyst.

[Reorte]

JaegerBane wrote...

Reorte wrote...
The problem I have with it is that the intention of the scenes (why they're in there at all, and other considerations if you metagame) says one thing but the content more strongly suggests another (e.g. lost in a bad place, badly wounded, why make up the plaque at all, and the LI isn't clairvoyant).

Lost? Clairvoyance? I don't know where you got that from. Everyone knows where Shep went and the reason the LI isn't willing to actually place the plaque up is that they don't know for certain he's dead, they've merely assumed it (albeit with fair reasoning). They know that if anyone could survive that, it would be Shep, so they're going to make damn sure. Cut to the shot of him breathing in the rubble a la ME1 ending plus an added does of harsheness.

Realistically, the only explanation beyond this for the LI's smile and the Normandy flying off is that they actually wanted Shep dead all along and presumably feel they've achieved it. And if you believe that, then, well...

Pretty well lost. They know he's somewhere on the Citadel. Talk about needle in a haystack stuff, for someone in a bad way. And I really don't see them sticking names up on the memorial wall for someone missing (as opposed to killed) in action. As for the LI smiling I don't know about that, my LI is Tali.

We've got the equivalent of someone we knew was in a building that got hit by an earthquake, only with a lot more searching needed because the Citadel (even just the Presidium, or just the tower) is a pretty big place.

[JaegerBane]

Jadebaby wrote...
Hey you're free to like whatever you want pal. I never even tried to insult you for that so if that's what you're seeing, it's all in your own head.

One would assume a stupid picture of a guy laughing in response to my post counts as an insult.

What I am scrutinizing is you comparing them to C Nolan. That's just ridiculous. You cannot compare Bruce sitting there with his future lady, happy and content, to Shepard lying half dead in a piece of rubble eons away from any kind of help. The two are almost polar opposites.

Its definitely much harsher, and I've repeatedly stated that I'm not saying its the same ending. I'm saying the point, and the way it is depicted, is similar i.e. hints rather that THIS IS WHAT HAPPNENED scenes. And I'm not sure why he's 'eons away from help' being sat on a space station in Earth orbit surrounded by the sum total of the remaining forces of the entire galaxy.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

JaegerBane wrote...

Reorte wrote...
The problem I have with it is that the intention of the scenes (why they're in there at all, and other considerations if you metagame) says one thing but the content more strongly suggests another (e.g. lost in a bad place, badly wounded, why make up the plaque at all, and the LI isn't clairvoyant).

Lost? Clairvoyance? I don't know where you got that from. Everyone knows where Shep went and the reason the LI isn't willing to actually place the plaque up is that they don't know for certain he's dead, they've merely assumed it (albeit with fair reasoning). They know that if anyone could survive that, it would be Shep, so they're going to make damn sure. Cut to the shot of him breathing in the rubble a la ME1 ending plus an added does of harsheness.

Realistically, the only explanation beyond this for the LI's smile and the Normandy flying off is that they actually wanted Shep dead all along and presumably feel they've achieved it. And if you believe that, then, well...

[goose2989]

chemiclord wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Are you telling me no one can just change that cinematic to a breath scene with a voice-over saying, "We've located Shepard, and we've got life signs," to give a happier hippier ending?

Well, now I ask you... would that REALLY have been enough to sate the rage?

I honestly don't think so.

It wouldn't have fixed everything, but I really think it would have helped a lot. I personally would be content; I wouldn't be thrilled, but I would be ok. 
 

[JaegerBane]

Reorte wrote...
We've got the equivalent of someone we knew was in a building that got hit by an earthquake, only with a lot more searching needed because the Citadel (even just the Presidium, or just the tower) is a pretty big place.

If you're honestly suggesting that the story is supposed to be showing Shep surviving the final blast but dying because of a simple matter of physically locating him in time... then, I'd direct you to back to my point about believing what you want to believe. The simple matter is that the scene has no reason to exist if he's dead. He would have gone out just like Mordin.